Malachi 4 Question

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Messianic Judaism also believes that God is no respecter of persons. All people are loved and the way to salvation is the same for all people.

Scripture tells us that linage means nothing when it comes to eternal salvation, as being a descendent of Jacob doesn't mean a person is saved, and not being a descendent of Jacob does not mean a person can not be saved.

Boaz, married Ruth, a Moabite by lineage, bringing her into the “camp” and in turn bringing her into the line of David and Yeshua. At first glance this appears to be a contradiction to what a God-fearing Israelite would possibly do; especially when considering what God had to say about such actions, not just in this time frame, but even in the time of Ezra. However, Ruth did not worship idols or false gods.


Ruth 1:16-18 (CJB – spells Ruth as Rut)
16 But Rut said, “Don’t press me to leave you and stop following you; for wherever you go, I will go; and wherever you stay, I will stay. Your people will be my people
and your God will be my God.
17 Where you die, I will die; and there I will be buried. May Adonai bring terrible curses on me, and worse ones as well, if anything but death separates you and me.”
18 When Na‘omi saw that she was determined to go with her, she said no more to her.

Philemon 1:10-18 (CJB)
10 My request to you concerns my son, of whom I became the father while here in prison, Onesimus.
11 His name means “useful,” and although he was once useless to you, he has now become most useful — not only to you but also to me;
12 so that in returning him to you I am sending a part of my very heart.
13 I would dearly have loved to keep him with me, in order for him to serve me in your place while I am in prison because of the Good News.
14 But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that the good you do for me may be voluntary and not forced.
15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a brief period was so that you could have him back forever,
16 no longer as a slave but as more than a slave, as a dear brother. And that he is, especially to me. But how much dearer he must be to you, both humanly and in union with the Lord!
17 So if you are in fellowship with me, receive him as you would me.
18 And if he has wronged you in any way or owes you anything, charge it to me.

Was Noah an Israelite? Was Job an Israelite? Was Abraham an Israelite?
Was Corrie Ten Boom an Israelite? Was Mother Teresa an Israelite?

Edit Clarification: This reply is not questioning Qnts, but rather agreeing with the Messianic perspective that all worshippers of GOD/Adonai are special.
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Lulav

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Christians are taught that God is no respecter of persons. I presume that is the reason they do not believe they will be Hebrew servents. If only Hebrews can be Israelis, and Judah the faithful; then that would make Christianity a waste of time, if we are less than fellow human beings. And you guys wonder why the worldly hate you. You can stop wondering. Anyway, we do care about you, and we hope you will have a change of heart.
I knew all these questions were leading up to something like this.

You say that Christians are taught that G-d is no respecter of persons, yet if you read in parts other than what one man wrote you will find that G-d does choose.

He choose Able over Cain, he choose Jacob over Esau, even to the point where he said he loved Jacob and hated Esau. He choose Abraham, then Isaac and then Jacob to be his family of chosen ones out of all the nations on the earth.

And moving forward, Yeshua, or Jesus to you, choose specific twelve men to be his chosen Apostles.

G-s chooses, but we must remember this, His understanding is not our understanding and His ways are not our ways, so we cannot judge them in the same way.

Where you got the idea of Hebrew servants is just another misunderstanding. It speaks of the enemies of Israel. If you are a Christian and hate the Jews as millions of Christians have been taught to do, despite being taught that G-d is no respecter of persons, then you too will be made to come before G-d's chosen and treat him the way you should have in the first place.

If someone says that you are less than human beings that is wrong and is overstepping what G-d said. And it does happen as Jews, as is well known as our history has been published for all the world to see are no different, we aren't perfect, but we are held up to the light moreso than other nations.

And you guys wonder why the worldly hate you. You can stop wondering. Anyway, we do care about you, and we hope you will have a change of heart.

This here specifically shows that you came here to accuse and not to learn. You are not looking to find out about Messianics, you have in your sites Jews. You are right in that the world does hate us collectively, most hid it, many do not. It has been that way since we were formed. The reason you stated is not the reason though, but a red herring. The scriptures you pointed out are just reassuring verse that tell us that with all the trial and tribulations and persecutions and practical extinctions we have faced and will face by the Nations, the Gentiles, someday we will be rewarded for suffering through it all.


I don't know who all you mean when you say that "we do care about you" because it sure doesn't look that way. And telling us we should change our minds or hearts, about what?

In the first place we didn't ask to be chosen, G-d choose, and we didn't ask to be persecuted, but we were. So whatever G-d says about what will happen to us, it is Him you have a problem with, not us. He is the one that said what will happen. If you don't like that and don't want to acknowledge Him and what he says, you will have to take it up with him, not us.
 
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If only Hebrews can be Israelis, and Judah the faithful; then that would make Christianity a waste of time, if we are less than fellow human beings
Sounds like you are a little jealous and/or upset with God..

In case you weren't aware this is a Messianic forum composed of both gentile and Jewish believers in Yeshua Ha-Mashiach. Your quote has us all wondering if you are all that knowledgeable of the Good News. After all we have the Jewish Hebrews from Israel to thank for first spreading the Good News. You're beginning to sound like your real beef is with God. Do you think it's not in God's interest to fulfil OT prophecies of returning the Jewish descendants of Israel to their original homelands after having been dispersed around the world beginning over 2,500 years ago with their Assyrian captivity (740-722 BCE), Babylonian captivity (597 BCE) and the Seige of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

1 Is·rae·li – adjective \iz-ˈrā-lē also ˌiz-rə-ˈā-lē\
: of or relating to the people or the republic of Israel

2 Israeli – noun plural IsraelisalsoIsraeli
: a native or inhabitant of the republic of Israel

Do you think it was easy for Messanic Jews to become a citizen of Israel before 2008. Though there are an estimated 175,000 to 250,000 Messianic Jews in the U.S. and 350,000 worldwide, according to various counts, they are a tiny minority in Israel -- just 10,000-20,000 people by some estimates -- but growing, according to both its proponents and critics.

Most Messianic Jews who are Israeli citizens serve in the army with devotion, in contrast with ultra-Orthodox haredim who have been exempt from military service. Messianic Jews support the occupation, not because they support the nationalistic policies of the Israeli government, but because of the role that the re-gathering of Jews to Israel plays in the Holy Bible's prophetic end-times scenario.

For decades, Israel has made it next to impossible for immigrant Messianic Jews, who affirm belief in Jesus as Messiah, to become citizens of Israel. Often, if Messianic believers disclosed their faith in 'Yeshua,' the name they use for Jesus, government authorities would reject their citizenship application.
But last week (mid-April 2008), the Supreme Court of Israel, ruled on a case involving 12 Messianic Jews who sued the government Ministry of the Interior for their legal 'right of return' (and then to become citizens of Israel).

It's difficult to count Messianic Jewish congregations in Israel or to know how many members congregations have. Ellen Horowitz, Content and Research Director for the Israel-based group Jewish Israel, which says it is educating Israelis about the "spiritual destruction" caused by evangelizing, estimates the total between 120 and 150 congregations. They are located all over the country, including Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, and the Galilee. Some people will mention -- but will not detail -- missionaries working underground in both Israeli settlements and Palestinian areas of the West Bank.

Although they operate under the radar of most Israelis, Messianic Jews face intense opposition from haredi groups who portray Messianic Judaism as a cult endangering Israel's Jewish identity. They accuse Messianic Jews of preying on unsuspecting secular Israeli youth, immigrants, and others insufficiently in touch with their Judaism.
 
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CherubRam

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I knew all these questions were leading up to something like this.

You say that Christians are taught that G-d is no respecter of persons, yet if you read in parts other than what one man wrote you will find that G-d does choose.

He choose Able over Cain, he choose Jacob over Esau, even to the point where he said he loved Jacob and hated Esau. He choose Abraham, then Isaac and then Jacob to be his family of chosen ones out of all the nations on the earth.

And moving forward, Yeshua, or Jesus to you, choose specific twelve men to be his chosen Apostles.

G-s chooses, but we must remember this, His understanding is not our understanding and His ways are not our ways, so we cannot judge them in the same way.

Where you got the idea of Hebrew servants is just another misunderstanding. It speaks of the enemies of Israel. If you are a Christian and hate the Jews as millions of Christians have been taught to do, despite being taught that G-d is no respecter of persons, then you too will be made to come before G-d's chosen and treat him the way you should have in the first place.

If someone says that you are less than human beings that is wrong and is overstepping what G-d said. And it does happen as Jews, as is well known as our history has been published for all the world to see are no different, we aren't perfect, but we are held up to the light moreso than other nations.



This here specifically shows that you came here to accuse and not to learn. You are not looking to find out about Messianics, you have in your sites Jews. You are right in that the world does hate us collectively, most hid it, many do not. It has been that way since we were formed. The reason you stated is not the reason though, but a red herring. The scriptures you pointed out are just reassuring verse that tell us that with all the trial and tribulations and persecutions and practical extinctions we have faced and will face by the Nations, the Gentiles, someday we will be rewarded for suffering through it all.


I don't know who all you mean when you say that "we do care about you" because it sure doesn't look that way. And telling us we should change our minds or hearts, about what?

In the first place we didn't ask to be chosen, G-d choose, and we didn't ask to be persecuted, but we were. So whatever G-d says about what will happen to us, it is Him you have a problem with, not us. He is the one that said what will happen. If you don't like that and don't want to acknowledge Him and what he says, you will have to take it up with him, not us.

As a Christian I do not understand your beliefs such as these:

1. Reinstate Levitical priesthood.

2. Restart sin sacrifices.

3. Mediate between God and the Gentiles as a middle wall partition.

4. Have Christians for servants for all the wrongs they have done.

The people who formed the nation Israel were multinational, not just Hebrews; the people of Judah and of the faith were also other peoples. Before Israel was a nations, Abraham and Enoch were testifing to other peoples that their God was the only true God. That has always been the mission of the faith, that is now what we call Judaism. To reach the conclusion you have, you would have to ignor certain scriptures and parables.
 
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macher

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As a Christian I do not understand your beliefs such as these:

1. Reinstate Levitical priesthood.

2. Restart sin sacrifices.

3. Mediate between God and the Gentiles as a middle wall partition.

4. Have Christians for servants for all the wrongs they have done.

The people who formed the nation Israel were multinational, not just Hebrews; the people of Judah and of the faith were also other peoples. Before Israel was a nations, Abraham and Enoch were testifing to other peoples that their God was the only true God. That has always been the mission of the faith, that is now what we call Judaism. To reach the conclusion you have, you would have to ignor certain scriptures and parables.

All your post is not truth. The truth is Israel are God's chosen. The disciples asked when will the Kingdom be restored.
 
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Are you trying to say, barely veiled, that I am too stupid to understand? :)
It would take me too long to draft, edit and post an explanation to do justice to the allegory. I did consider doing just that, but realized it would take several, several supporting scriptures, a few hours, and even then the allegory (which I thought appropriate) could still be seen as being unnecessary and maybe so ... so I deleted it.
 
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CherubRam

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All your post is not truth. The truth is Israel are God's chosen. The disciples asked when will the Kingdom be restored.
Are these the scriptures you are speaking of?

The Kingdom given to others
Acts 1:6-7

6 So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

Mark 12:9
“What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.

Luke 20:16
He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.”When the people heard this, they said, “May this never be!”

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
 
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macher

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Are these the scriptures you are speaking of?

The Kingdom given to others
Acts 1:6-7

6 So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

Mark 12:9
“What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.

Luke 20:16
He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.”When the people heard this, they said, “May this never be!”

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

He's referring to the faithful remnant of Jewish believers, although the nation as a whole and the majority have not come to faith, the faithful remnant is fulfilling what the nation as a whole has been promised.
 
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CherubRam

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As a Christian I do not understand your beliefs such as these:

1. Reinstate Levitical priesthood.

2. Restart sin sacrifices.

3. Mediate between God and the Gentiles as a middle wall partition.

4. Have Christians for servants for all the wrongs they have done.

The people who formed the nation Israel were multinational, not just Hebrews; the people of Judah and of the faith were also other peoples. Before Israel was a nations, Abraham and Enoch were testifing to other peoples that their God was the only true God. That has always been the mission of the faith, that is now what we call Judaism. To reach the conclusion you have, you would have to ignor certain scriptures and parables.

Are these the scriptures you are speaking of?

The Kingdom given to others
Acts 1:6-7

6 So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

Mark 12:9
“What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.

Luke 20:16
He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.”When the people heard this, they said, “May this never be!”

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

He's referring to the faithful remnant of Jewish believers, although the nation as a whole and the majority have not come to faith, the faithful remnant is fulfilling what the nation as a whole has been promised.

What role do Christians have in Israel besides being your servants?
 
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Lulav

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As a Christian I do not understand your beliefs such as these:

1. Reinstate Levitical priesthood.

2. Restart sin sacrifices.

3. Mediate between God and the Gentiles as a middle wall partition.

4. Have Christians for servants for all the wrongs they have done.

The people who formed the nation Israel were multinational, not just Hebrews; the people of Judah and of the faith were also other peoples. Before Israel was a nations, Abraham and Enoch were testifing to other peoples that their God was the only true God. That has always been the mission of the faith, that is now what we call Judaism. To reach the conclusion you have, you would have to ignor certain scriptures and parables.
You have not answered to what I posted and have drawn from it, very odd conclusions. Those four bullet points I never said, so you are misunderstanding in a very personal way. Drop your preconceptions about Jews and try and learn.

The people who formed the nation of Israel were from the 12 tribes of Jacob, whose name G-d changed to Israel. So you had to be from one of his sons to be called of the nation of Israel.

'The people of Judah were of other peoples', only makes sense in the time period of when After King David and his son Solomon the Kingdom divided. There was the Kingdom called Judah which consisted of the tribe of Judah, Benjamin and the Levites that lived in that area. This was called the Southern Kingdom. The Northern Kingdom consisted of the other tribes who choose their own King. This was about Kingdoms, not nations.

I don't recall Abraham proselytizing, but that is moot. G-d made a nation out of a specific family and there's no getting around that.

They come from

Abrahams son Isaac, not his son Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak or Shuah, only Isaac.

And from Isaac was chosen Jacob, not Esau.

And Jacob had twelve sons and G-d named him Israel. What many people don't realize is that Jacob was only renamed Israel after he obeyed G-ds voice and ordered his large family to do these following things.


  • Get rid of the foreign gods you have with you
  • purify yourselves
  • change your clothes
Jacob was told to go to Bethel , the House of G-d and to build him an altar there.



Then God said to him, "Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel. " So he named him Israel. 11 And God said to him, "I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body. 12 The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you."
 
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mishkan

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Excellent review. :clap:

You have not answered to what I posted and have drawn from it, very odd conclusions. Those four bullet points I never said, so you are misunderstanding in a very personal way. Drop your preconceptions about Jews and try and learn.

The people who formed the nation of Israel were from the 12 tribes of Jacob, whose name G-d changed to Israel. So you had to be from one of his sons to be called of the nation of Israel.

'The people of Judah were of other peoples', only makes sense in the time period of when After King David and his son Solomon the Kingdom divided. There was the Kingdom called Judah which consisted of the tribe of Judah, Benjamin and the Levites that lived in that area. This was called the Southern Kingdom. The Northern Kingdom consisted of the other tribes who choose their own King. This was about Kingdoms, not nations.

I don't recall Abraham proselytizing, but that is moot. G-d made a nation out of a specific family and there's no getting around that.

They come from

Abrahams son Isaac, not his son Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak or Shuah, only Isaac.

And from Isaac was chosen Jacob, not Esau.

And Jacob had twelve sons and G-d named him Israel. What many people don't realize is that Jacob was only renamed Israel after he obeyed G-ds voice and ordered his large family to do these following things.


  • Get rid of the foreign gods you have with you
  • purify yourselves
  • change your clothes
Jacob was told to go to Bethel , the House of G-d and to build him an altar there.



Then God said to him, "Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel. " So he named him Israel. 11 And God said to him, "I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body. 12 The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you."
 
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Since page one I have been asking what role Christians play besides being your servants. I'm still waiting for an answer. So far you have given me interpretations that include Messianics, but exclude Christians.

In case you hadn't noticed Messianics don't exclude Christians. It's Orthodox Jews that consider Christianity an apostasy.

Edit Clarification: As previously discussed the vast majority of Orthodox Israeli Jews consider Messianic Jews to be Christians and as such view them as an apostasy. However, Messianic Jews don't consider Orthodox Jews to be an apostasy.
 
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Avodat

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Since page one I have been asking what role Christians play besides being your servants. I'm still waiting for an answer. So far you have given me interpretations that include Messianics, but exclude Christians.


Because it is really a non-question. It is irrelevant because the concept doesn't exist outside your perception of the issue. We cannot account for what does not exist.
 
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CherubRam

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Because it is really a non-question. It is irrelevant because the concept doesn't exist outside your perception of the issue. We cannot account for what does not exist.

So then, we Christians are of no account? What ever!
 
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Avodat

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Don't twist words - it doesn't become you.

If you want to believe that, as seems to be the case, nothing we can say will change your mind, but no-one here sees your statement as relevant because that situation simply doesn't exist as far as we are concerned.

Please stop flaming!
 
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You have not answered to what I posted and have drawn from it, very odd conclusions. Those four bullet points I never said, so you are misunderstanding in a very personal way. Drop your preconceptions about Jews and try and learn.

The people who formed the nation of Israel were from the 12 tribes of Jacob, whose name G-d changed to Israel. So you had to be from one of his sons to be called of the nation of Israel.

'The people of Judah were of other peoples', only makes sense in the time period of when After King David and his son Solomon the Kingdom divided. There was the Kingdom called Judah which consisted of the tribe of Judah, Benjamin and the Levites that lived in that area. This was called the Southern Kingdom. The Northern Kingdom consisted of the other tribes who choose their own King. This was about Kingdoms, not nations.

I don't recall Abraham proselytizing, but that is moot. G-d made a nation out of a specific family and there's no getting around that.

They come from

Abrahams son Isaac, not his son Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak or Shuah, only Isaac.

And from Isaac was chosen Jacob, not Esau.

And Jacob had twelve sons and G-d named him Israel. What many people don't realize is that Jacob was only renamed Israel after he obeyed G-ds voice and ordered his large family to do these following things.


  • Get rid of the foreign gods you have with you
  • purify yourselves
  • change your clothes
Jacob was told to go to Bethel , the House of G-d and to build him an altar there.



Then God said to him, "Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel. " So he named him Israel. 11 And God said to him, "I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body. 12 The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you."

Christians are aware of your heritage. The problem here is that the scriptures that would include others is being ignored. I see no point in continuing this conversation.
 
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