Major obstacles to unity with Orthodox are resolved. What’s left? (Interview)

[Michie]

Fr. Jaromir Zadrapa considers the road forward, after 10 centuries of division.

Fr. Jaromir Zadrapa, official of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, in an interview last month with I.MEDIA, said that the great obstacles between Catholics and Orthodox have been resolved during these 60 years of dialogue. For this Czech priest in charge of dialogue with the Russian Orthodox Church, the primacy of the pope remains the main point of discussion between the two Churches and raises the question of the “form” full unity will take.

It’s been 60 years since the Council for Promoting Christian Unity was established. What road remains to be traveled in order to achieve unity?

Continued below.
Major obstacles to unity with Orthodox are resolved. What’s left? (Interview)

 

[thecolorsblend]

In my experience, most Orthodox Church bishops would be perfectly willing to reunify with the Catholic Church tomorrow morning... provided that the Catholic Church converts to Orthodoxy.

I seek unity with the Orthodox. But I get the idea that they don't really seek unity with us.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Fr. Jaromir Zadrapa considers the road forward, after 10 centuries of division.

Fr. Jaromir Zadrapa, official of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, in an interview last month with I.MEDIA, said that the great obstacles between Catholics and Orthodox have been resolved during these 60 years of dialogue. For this Czech priest in charge of dialogue with the Russian Orthodox Church, the primacy of the pope remains the main point of discussion between the two Churches and raises the question of the “form” full unity will take.

It’s been 60 years since the Council for Promoting Christian Unity was established. What road remains to be traveled in order to achieve unity?

Continued below.
Major obstacles to unity with Orthodox are resolved. What’s left? (Interview)

I appreciate Father Zadrapa's rosy take of the situation, but if we were that close I think there would be more buzz about it.

In my experience, most Orthodox Church bishops would be perfectly willing to reunify with the Catholic Church tomorrow morning... provided that the Catholic Church converts to Orthodoxy.

I seek unity with the Orthodox. But I get the idea that they don't really seek unity with us.

That has been precisely my impression as well. Going back to when I was thinking of converting to Orthodoxy in 2011-2012 before I turned to Rome, I noticed so much contempt for the west. I found it too repugnant to continue with them. They wholesale dismiss the west practically and liturgically. Even going so far as to determine that their western orthodox parishes are just mere stepping stones to lure western converts, but ultimately they expect those converts to embrace eastern liturgies.

Since the Russian-Constantinople Schism started in 2018 I thought maybe Constantinople and it's allies would turn to Rome, but nah... they've just continued on their merry way. Maybe it'll happen. Maybe we won't unify with all of the Orthodox (the Russians may decide to be party poopers and stay in their corner) but I could see a sizeable portion of Orthodoxy agreeing to reunification. The question is, how much of Orthodoxy would have to be involved for the schism to be considered 'healed'?

 

[thecolorsblend]

I appreciate Father Zadrapa's rosy take of the situation, but if we were that close I think there would be more buzz about it.



That has been precisely my impression as well. Going back to when I was thinking of converting to Orthodoxy in 2011-2012 before I turned to Rome, I noticed so much contempt for the west. I found it too repugnant to continue with them. They wholesale dismiss the west practically and liturgically. Even going so far as to determine that their western orthodox parishes are just mere stepping stones to lure western converts, but ultimately they expect those converts to embrace eastern liturgies.

Since the Russian-Constantinople Schism started in 2018 I thought maybe Constantinople and it's allies would turn to Rome, but nah... they've just continued on their merry way. Maybe it'll happen. Maybe we won't unify with all of the Orthodox (the Russians may decide to be party poopers and stay in their corner) but I could see a sizeable portion of Orthodoxy agreeing to reunification. The question is, how much of Orthodoxy would have to be involved for the schism to be considered 'healed'?

My favorite part is when some Orthodox runs down Novus Ordo. Oy.

How many of them need to come back before the schism is healed? Speaking purely pragmatically, I guess if 51% of Eastern Orthodox faithful in Eastern Europe enter into the reunited Church, that would be enough.

But, as above, there's good reason to think they don't actually want reunification. An undeniable percentage of whatever size enjoys being Eastern Orthodox precisely because they lack a Pope. It's a little unreasonable, I think, to believe they'd willingly embrace the very thing their religious identity is founded upon rejecting.

If reunification happens, I guess we'll see how many Eastern Orthodox are truly as obedient to their local bishop or patriarch or whatever they're called and how many are just Protestants by another name. But frankly, I suspect the number will be a lot lower than 51%.

 

[Markie Boy]

I'd expect reunion would only be possible if the pope's status returned to pre-schism status of a final court of appeal. Pre-schism shows that the pope did not appoint every bishop around the world - it was a much more locally managed thing.

Actually - given the state of the RCC, that could be one thing that would help save it.

 

[Gnarwhal]

My favorite part is when some Orthodox runs down Novus Ordo. Oy.

How many of them need to come back before the schism is healed? Speaking purely pragmatically, I guess if 51% of Eastern Orthodox faithful in Eastern Europe enter into the reunited Church, that would be enough.

But, as above, there's good reason to think they don't actually want reunification. An undeniable percentage of whatever size enjoys being Eastern Orthodox precisely because they lack a Pope. It's a little unreasonable, I think, to believe they'd willingly embrace the very thing their religious identity is founded upon rejecting.

If reunification happens, I guess we'll see how many Eastern Orthodox are truly as obedient to their local bishop or patriarch or whatever they're called and how many are just Protestants by another name. But frankly, I suspect the number will be a lot lower than 51%.

A simple majority makes sense. I see your point as well, there's an elitism associated with the conciliar model because it distributes authority instead of consolidating it in the throne of Saint Peter.

To build on your thoughts, I think a true sign that reunification were a possibility would be if they overcame their phyletism first. When they stop infighting across cultural lines (Greeks vs. Serbs, Bulgarians vs. Antiochians, Moscow vs. Constantinople; on a church-wide scale or a smaller local scale - there just seems to be so much segregation and nose-thumbing even with each other) then maybe they would see how unification is a good and right thing, and they ought to reunite with Rome as well.

 

[thecolorsblend]

A simple majority makes sense. I see your point as well, there's an elitism associated with the conciliar model because it distributes authority instead of consolidating it in the throne of Saint Peter.

To build on your thoughts, I think a true sign that reunification were a possibility would be if they overcame their phyletism first. When they stop infighting across cultural lines (Greeks vs. Serbs, Bulgarians vs. Antiochians, Moscow vs. Constantinople; on a church-wide scale or a smaller local scale - there just seems to be so much segregation and nose-thumbing even with each other) then maybe they would see how unification is a good and right thing, and they ought to reunite with Rome as well.

One thing the Church has not been very good at doing is welcoming differences.

By way of comparison, the Ordinariate Of The Chair Of Saint Peter was originally presented as a new home for Anglicans coming home. In actual practice, it appears to be a halfway house so that these Anglo-Catholics can be weaned on Roman Catholicism. Which just about explains why so few (relatively) Anglican parishes accepted the offer.

I've heard similar things to a lesser degree about the Eastern Catholics.

I understand that the Church wants the Roman Rite to be THE Rite. But the fact of the matter is that all these divisions through history DID happen and the differences between Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Anglo-Catholics, etc, are evidence of that. And maybe they should be a lasting consequence as well.

So perhaps if the Church makes a firm promise to not interfere with their liturgy (or liturgies) or the unique elements that make them who they are, there will be one more issue where the Eastern Orthodox feel comfortable about reuniting. Obviously, that won't solve everything. Because sooner or later, the Orthodox will need to get their collective head around the papacy. It's real, it's binding and it's not going away.

But at the very least, the Eastern Orthodox knowing that they won't have to become Roman Catholics in order to become Catholics can't possibly hurt anything.

 

[Gnarwhal]

One thing the Church has not been very good at doing is welcoming differences.

By way of comparison, the Ordinariate Of The Chair Of Saint Peter was originally presented as a new home for Anglicans coming home. In actual practice, it appears to be a halfway house so that these Anglo-Catholics can be weaned on Roman Catholicism. Which just about explains why so few (relatively) Anglican parishes accepted the offer.

I've heard similar things to a lesser degree about the Eastern Catholics.

I understand that the Church wants the Roman Rite to be THE Rite. But the fact of the matter is that all these divisions through history DID happen and the differences between Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Anglo-Catholics, etc, are evidence of that. And maybe they should be a lasting consequence as well.

So perhaps if the Church makes a firm promise to not interfere with their liturgy (or liturgies) or the unique elements that make them who they are, there will be one more issue where the Eastern Orthodox feel comfortable about reuniting. Obviously, that won't solve everything. Because sooner or later, the Orthodox will need to get their collective head around the papacy. It's real, it's binding and it's not going away.

But at the very least, the Eastern Orthodox knowing that they won't have to become Roman Catholics in order to become Catholics can't possibly hurt anything.

Hm, I didn't think we did interfere in the Eastern liturgies? If anything I just figured the Latin Rite had preeminence because it represents a much larger portion of the Church and the Pope himself is primarily Latin Rite but I didn't think we held back the Eastern Churches in any way.

But your point is made nonetheless, it seems like what we need is a "unity on the other side of sovereignty" inasmuch that the Eastern patriarchs have submitted to the authority of the Bishop of Rome and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, but outside of that they have latitude to establish their respective Churches according to their respective traditions. I mean, I thought that's how it already is but if it needs to be 'more so' I'm all for it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

One thing the Church has not been very good at doing is welcoming differences.

By way of comparison, the Ordinariate Of The Chair Of Saint Peter was originally presented as a new home for Anglicans coming home. In actual practice, it appears to be a halfway house so that these Anglo-Catholics can be weaned on Roman Catholicism. Which just about explains why so few (relatively) Anglican parishes accepted the offer.

I've heard similar things to a lesser degree about the Eastern Catholics.

I understand that the Church wants the Roman Rite to be THE Rite. But the fact of the matter is that all these divisions through history DID happen and the differences between Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Anglo-Catholics, etc, are evidence of that. And maybe they should be a lasting consequence as well.

So perhaps if the Church makes a firm promise to not interfere with their liturgy (or liturgies) or the unique elements that make them who they are, there will be one more issue where the Eastern Orthodox feel comfortable about reuniting. Obviously, that won't solve everything. Because sooner or later, the Orthodox will need to get their collective head around the papacy. It's real, it's binding and it's not going away.

But at the very least, the Eastern Orthodox knowing that they won't have to become Roman Catholics in order to become Catholics can't possibly hurt anything.

Sort of.

I don't think the Ordinariate is a half-way house at all. Nor do I think that the rites that are not Latin are half-way houses. Our liturgical diversity is permanent.

The Orthodox do not have to become Latin Rite to be one with Latin Rite folks. They can stay Byzantine or whatever. But it won't happen in my lifetime, and mostly because most of them don't want to be united with Catholics. It's not a doctrinal problem. It's not a problem of Catholics not wanting it. It's a lot of Orthodox people stuck in their anti-Catholicism. Nothing happens while they persist in it. My prayers cannot be answered if they persist as refuseniks.

 

[Markie Boy]

After reading a little on the Orthodox perspective on this, the conservative ones seem to look at Pope Francis and state of the Vatican, and want no part of it.

Can you blame them?

 

[Gnarwhal]

After reading a little on the Orthodox perspective on this, the conservative ones seem to look at Pope Francis and state of the Vatican, and want no part of it.

Can you blame them?

It's not like their patriarchs are all rosy either though, look at the mess they're in with Moscow and Constantinople in schism (for the second time in 25 years!)

I'm not a fan of Pope Francis at all, but he's not the first bad pope we've ever had. Popes come and go but the Church remains eternal.

 

[thecolorsblend]

After reading a little on the Orthodox perspective on this, the conservative ones seem to look at Pope Francis and state of the Vatican, and want no part of it.

Can you blame them?

That's the entire point. It's easy to want to join the Church when there's, say, a John Paul II as Pope.

Pope Francis may be less than ideal. I think he is anyway, although not necessarily everybody feels that way. But he is still the Pope. The Church will survive with or without him. And while he's steering the ship, she won't teach error. That's a sign for most Catholics that the Church truly does possess the supernatural origin and guidance that she claims.

 

[chevyontheriver]

After reading a little on the Orthodox perspective on this, the conservative ones seem to look at Pope Francis and state of the Vatican, and want no part of it.

Can you blame them?

I can't blame them ... but these same folks wanted no part of the Catholic Church for centuries. They like schism. If they wanted unity they could tell pope Francis to straighten out and fly right rather than using him as just one more excuse in a long line of excuses to justify schism.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

My niece married a man who is Antioch Orthodox, who was born and raised in Lebanon until 10 years old.

I found it odd, that they got married in a Greek Orthodox Church near their home, which he had to pay to rent, but they were not allowed to have a Mass by his own priest who married them.

Not sure why not other than they're not one unified religion like Roman Catholicism is.

 

[Gnarwhal]

My niece married a man who is Antioch Orthodox, who was born and raised in Lebanon until 10 years old.

I found it odd, that they got married in a Greek Orthodox Church near their home, which he had to pay to rent, but they were not allowed to have a Mass by his own priest who married them.

Not sure why not other than they're not one unified religion like Roman Catholicism is.

Wait I'm a little confused...if he's Lebanese was he raised Maronite Catholic? If he's Antiochian Orthodox now the Greek Orthodox wedding is understandable, since as I understand it, it would basically be like a Latin Rite Catholic marrying an Eastern Catholic in the latter's parish. But if he's actually Maronite Catholic then yeah the Orthodox would refuse them communion, the Orthodox aren't as charitable as Rome who acknowledges the Orthodox sacraments and allows them to receive the Eucharist.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Wait I'm a little confused...if he's Lebanese was he raised Maronite Catholic? If he's Antiochian Orthodox now the Greek Orthodox wedding is understandable, since as I understand it, it would basically be like a Latin Rite Catholic marrying an Eastern Catholic in the latter's parish. But if he's actually Maronite Catholic then yeah the Orthodox would refuse them communion, the Orthodox aren't as charitable as Rome who acknowledges the Orthodox sacraments and allows them to receive the Eucharist.

No, he told me explicitly that he is Antioch Orthodox and that although his priest could marry them at the Greek Orthodox Church, but that he could not have Mass at the wedding ceremony.

I couldn't understand this and never got a satisfactory answer

 

[Anhelyna]

Forgive me for butting in

Jim - your niece - is she RC ?

 

[Gnarwhal]

No, he told me explicitly that he is Antioch Orthodox and that although his priest could marry them at the Greek Orthodox Church, but that he could not have Mass at the wedding ceremony.

I couldn't understand this and never got a satisfactory answer

Huh, that's very odd because as far as I had thought, if you were chrismated Eastern Orthodox than you could receive Holy Communion in any autocephelous Orthodox Church. I wonder if that was some kind of miscommunication with his priest or if something has changed..?

 

[tz620q]

Forgive me for butting in

Jim - your niece - is she RC ?

You know, I've often thought that even though this is a safe haven, when a thread remarks specifically about another denomination that members of that denomination should be able to comment in the forum. This doesn't have to be debate, just friendly discussion, just like the joint commissions are trying to support. We will never have true unity if the respective members don't come out from behind their walls. So I look forward to Orthodox members commenting on this topic; because I think they have a very different opinion that is expressed here by Catholics.

 

[Anhelyna]

That question of mine is not intended as an opening for debate. I've been a member of OBOB and TAW groups since I joined CF.

It's a genuine question in case it sheds some light on the way the Marriage of this couple was celebrated