Maintaining a Current Belief?

cvanwey

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Over the years, I lost faith, based upon numerous reasons. At some point, I found I could no longer, in being intellectually honest with myself, continue to believe Christianity provides 'truth' about "where we came from, etc..." Thus, I now have much doubt, but still sometimes look anyways; as 'old habits die hard', if-you-will...

I'm curious. It seems many, whom contribute here in this arena, are not just mere fundamentalists, whom may reject all of science which looks to 'contradict' Scripture, etc... Many of you appear educated, sophisticated, and also look to give justified reason for the continuance of belief in Christianity; despite what looks to be a 'mess' to many of us whom read the Bible and either do not believe or now no longer believe.

I stumbled across a video, 26 minutes in length, which looks to raise a topic I still have genuine wonder about today.... Which-is-to-say,
what justification do [you] Christians use, if you do fit the criteria here, in stating "ah, but that was the Old Testament" ???

 

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For justifications regarding my own existential handling of the Old Testament, I'll just say that I first look at various brass tack facts about the 'nature' of Scripture, especially those that many folks [i.e. fundamentalists?] simply either don't recognize or ignore.

These brass tack facts aren't something that I somehow know because I'm "so dog gone smart and educated," rather they're simply facts I recognize because I've had the time and the willingness to become aware about them and acknowledge their presence in the overall scheme of valuing the Bible. I start with the assumption that the Bilbe has literary and epistemic limitations, an assumption that a number of my fellow Christians don't recognize. (And in my own 'version' of the Christian faith, I'm generally 'ok' with the limited scope of thought that other Christians may have. I don't expect everyone to have Super Brains in order to be 'good' Christians, although education is always a plus since the Holy Spirit doesn't seem to do much in the way of overnight drop-deposits into our individuals skulls... )

And for me that's it in a nutshell, cvanwey.
 
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cvanwey

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For justifications regarding my own existential handling of the Old Testament, I'll just say that I first look at various brass tack facts about the 'nature' of Scripture, especially those that many folks [i.e. fundamentalists?] simply either don't recognize or ignore.

These brass tack facts aren't something that I somehow know because I'm "so dog gone smart and educated," rather they're simply facts I recognize because I've had the time and the willingness to become aware about them and acknowledge their presence in the overall scheme of valuing the Bible. I start with the assumption that the Bilbe has literary and epistemic limitations, an assumption that a number of my fellow Christians don't recognize.

And for me that's it in a nutshell, cvanwey.

Thank you. Though I find this answer somewhat cryptic, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Thank you. Though I find this answer somewhat cryptic, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

It's not cryptic, it's just that I only have 5 minutes to say something. I don't have an hour and five minutes to start listing all of "the facts."

And you're welcome!
 
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cvanwey

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It's not cryptic, it's just that I only have 5 minutes to say something. I don't have an hour and five minutes to start listing all of "the facts."

And you're welcome!

I see you now edited/added more. In reading what you additionally wrote, the video mentions 2 'types' of believers:

1). Covenant based theology
2). Dispensational based theology

Would it be fair to say you fall into the category of 2).?
 
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Tone

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Nice that you have doubt, yet, you still seek! This reminds me of the man with the epileptic son:


Mark 9:24
"…23'If You can?' echoed Jesus. 'All things are possible to him who believes!' 24Immediately the boy’s father cried out, 'I do believe; help my unbelief!' 25When Jesus saw that a crowd had come running, He rebuked the unclean spirit. 'You deaf and mute spirit,' He said, 'I command you to come out and never enter him again.'"


I'm curious as to all the "big problems" being referred to, and I would anticipate my answer being that the seeming issues are sprung from the hardness of fallen men's hearts:

Matthew 18:8
"He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so."

The thing is, is critics also like to gloss over the beginning...wherein no sin reigned and all these big problems were absent, because what the Creator did is very good.

Of course, we know what became of that great and perfect beginning, and so you have the Creator condescending to His death bound creatures...again and again...and again.

So, I don't see what the big problems are when The Good Creator comes to cut the cancer out of His dying patient, so to speak.
 
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cvanwey

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I'm curious as to all the "big problems" being referred to, and I would anticipate my answer being that the seeming issues are sprung from the hardness of fallen men's hearts:

We can certainly get into all the 'problems'?.? But this may derail the intend of this thread?

Let's start simply:

The video mentions 2 'types' of believers:

1). Covenant based theology
2). Dispensational based theology

Which of the (2) looks to be a 'better' fit for your belief system?
 
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Tone

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We can certainly get into all the 'problems'?.? But this may derail the intend of this thread?

Let's start simply:

The video mentions 2 'types' of believers:

1). Covenant based theology
2). Dispensational based theology

Which of the (2) looks to be a 'better' fit for your belief system?


Well, that was a big SNIP...ha ha...

Ummmm...

Let's go with...3) None of the above!
 
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Andrewn

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It seems many, whom contribute here in this arena, are not just mere fundamentalists, whom may reject all of science which looks to 'contradict' Scripture, etc... Many of you appear educated, sophisticated, and also look to give justified reason for the continuance of belief in Christianity; despite what looks to be a 'mess' to many of us whom read the Bible and either do not believe or now no longer believe.
Each person has a distinguishable voice, a distinguishable facial features, a distinguishable gait, etc. In the same manner I think every person (above a certain mental age) has a distinguishable faith, regardless of whether they consider themselves Christians or not. This faith changes with time, just like our features, voices, etc.

I stumbled across a video, 26 minutes in length, which looks to raise a topic I still have genuine wonder about today.... Which-is-to-say, what justification do [you] Christians use, if you do fit the criteria here, in stating "ah, but that was the Old Testament" ???
I fast-forwarded through the video and the parts I watched did not include specific questions to answer. So, all I can say here is that in the NT, "the Word became flesh." I follow the embodied Word who is perfectly expressed in the NT. And I read the OT as supportive evidence.
 
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cvanwey

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Well, that was a big SNIP...ha ha...

Ummmm...

Let's go with...3) None of the above!

I 'snip' what does not appear relevant.

And if your answer is 'none of the above', then how exactly do you reconcile the OT with the NT? I would be curious as to what a third category might be?
 
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Tone

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I 'snip' what does not appear relevant.

And if your answer is 'none of the above', then how exactly do you reconcile the OT with the NT? I would be curious as to what a third category might be?


Psalm 118
"21I will give You thanks, for You have answered me, and You have become my salvation. 22The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. 23This is from the LORD, and it is marvelous in our eyes."

Acts 4
" 11This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ 12Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

It's like a Great Tree weathering a cosmic storm.
 
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cvanwey

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Each person has a distinguishable voice, a distinguishable facial features, a distinguishable gait, etc. In the same manner I think every person (above a certain mental age) has a distinguishable faith, regardless of whether they consider themselves Christians or not. This faith changes with time, just like our features, voices, etc.

Do 'morals' change over time?

I fast-forwarded through the video and the parts I watched did not include specific questions to answer. So, all I can say here is that in the NT, "the Word became flesh." I follow the embodied Word who is perfectly expressed in the NT. And I read the OT as supportive evidence.

This response is addressed in the video. You must have 'fast-forwarded' :)

I first ask you. The video mentions 2 'types' of believers:

1). Covenant based theology
2). Dispensational based theology

Which of the (2) looks to be a 'better' fit for your belief system?
 
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cvanwey

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Psalm 118
"21I will give You thanks, for You have answered me, and You have become my salvation. 22The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. 23This is from the LORD, and it is marvelous in our eyes."

Acts 4
" 11This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ 12Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

It's like a Great Tree weathering a cosmic storm.

Did you watch the video?
 
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Tone

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Did you watch the video?


I like that he says, "Not all of them are really good arguments" speaking of the atheist arguments against.

And he's correct, because I haven't heard any really great...or even just great arguments of why I should handle the OT and NT as anything other than seamless.

It's also funny that he uses the same type of arguments we Messianics use when expressing the relevance of Torah to traditional Christians.
 
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cvanwey

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I like that he says, "Not all of them are really good arguments" speaking of the atheist arguments against.

And he's correct, because I haven't heard any really great...or even just great arguments of why I should handle the OT and NT as anything other than seamless.

It's also funny that he uses the same type of arguments we Messianics use when expressing the relevance of Torah to traditional Christians.

Prior to proceeding, I again ask, for clarification...

Would you consider yourself more-so under the category of:

1). Covenant based theology
2). Dispensationalism

It's not a trick question, or an attempt to corner you into anything. I merely ask, so I know how NOT to address your future responses, in this thread - (to waste time). You may think that you do not quality under either. However, I trust that if you watch the entire video, you will fall under one, at least more than the other :)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I see you now edited/added more. In reading what you additionally wrote, the video mentions 2 'types' of believers:

1). Covenant based theology
2). Dispensational based theology

Would it be fair to say you fall into the category of 2).?

Probably not; or at least, not in exact terms that could be boiled down to my siding with one or the other of these two positions.

Remember.......................I'm an Existentialist first and foremost, and I would have to start by asking, "What is the human endeavor of Theology as it relates to the person of Jesus of Nazareth?," and I would ask this before engaging the additional questions pertaining to the application of theological qualifiers marking a more specific theological "classificiation."

I would also ponder over the extent to which, with philosophical analysis, we can really envision Christian Theology of any kind as being in any way, or even in some way, "systematic" in nature. Personally, I don't think theology is or really can be systematic; and we're not going to be able to land firmly in either the courts of theology of what are now known in modern times as "Covenant Theology" or generally, "Dispensational Theology."
 
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Tone

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Prior to proceeding, I again ask, for clarification...

Would you consider yourself more-so under the category of:

1). Covenant based theology
2). Dispensationalism

It's not a trick question, or an attempt to corner you into anything. I merely ask, so I know how NOT to address your future responses, in this thread - (to waste time). You may think that you do not quality under either. However, I trust that if you watch the entire video, you will fall under one, at least more than the other :)


Well, you tell me...you're the scientist...

You cut this out:

"I'm curious as to all the "big problems" being referred to, and I would anticipate my answer being that the seeming issues are sprung from the hardness of fallen men's hearts:

Matthew 18:8
"He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so."

The thing is, is critics also like to gloss over the beginning...wherein no sin reigned and all these big problems were absent, because what the Creator did is very good.

Of course, we know what became of that great and perfect beginning, and so you have the Creator condescending to His death bound creatures...again and again...and again.

So, I don't see what the big problems are when The Good Creator comes to cut the cancer out of His dying patient, so to speak."




I think you may have cut some vital information in your hasty analyzation.
 
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cvanwey

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Probably not; or at least, not in exact terms that could be boiled down to my siding with one or the other of these two positions.

Remember.......................I'm an Existentialist first and foremost, and I would have to start by asking, "What is the human endeavor of Theology as it relates to the person of Jesus of Nazareth?," and I would ask this before engaging the additional questions pertaining to the application of theological qualifiers marking a more specific theological "classificiation."

I would also ponder over the extent to which, with philosophical analysis, we can really envision Christian Theology of any kind as being in any way, or even in some way, "systematic" in nature. Personally, I don't think theology is or really can be systematic; and we're not going to be able to land firmly in either the courts of theology of what are now known in modern times as "Covenant Theology" or generally, "Dispensational Theology."

I appreciate this answer. I feel we've been down this road before. If we are not clear what IS given by God, then how can we effectively discern what wasn't given by god(s)? (rhetorical)...

Ultimately, in the past, you yourself ultimately eluded to "Lessing's ditch". In such a case, why have you landed upon the side of THIS set of books being 'true', at their core, when this set of books may present just as many 'set of problems' as any other currently circulating competing set of circulating books of claimed 'truth'?

 
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cvanwey

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Well, you tell me...you're the scientist...

You cut this out:

"I'm curious as to all the "big problems" being referred to, and I would anticipate my answer being that the seeming issues are sprung from the hardness of fallen men's hearts:

Matthew 18:8
"He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so."

The thing is, is critics also like to gloss over the beginning...wherein no sin reigned and all these big problems were absent, because what the Creator did is very good.

Of course, we know what became of that great and perfect beginning, and so you have the Creator condescending to His death bound creatures...again and again...and again.

So, I don't see what the big problems are when The Good Creator comes to cut the cancer out of His dying patient, so to speak."




I think you may have cut some vital information in your hasty analyzation.

If you cannot answer a simple and direct question, then I cannot help you.
 
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