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Featured Main Problems w "A" or "Post" Millenialism?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DreamerOfTheHeart, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    But until the 7th angel even sounds, how can one already be in the days of the voice of the seventh angel? I would think the voice has to do with the sounding of the trumpet.
     
  2. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's like saying, "we are in the days of the end" except the end hasn't come yet.
     
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I may need to consult Google and see how others interpret that verse, mainly out of curiosity in order to try and determine if anyone else is interpreting like me. I'm not saying I'm correct and that you are wrong, I just don't know at this point who might be correct here.
     
  4. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rev 16:5 - And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
    Rev 16:6 - For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

    JUDGEMENT of revelation 11:18 falls on the inhabitants of the land for spilling the blood of saints in rev 16:5-6...

    and JUDGEMENT befalls Babylon in rev18

    both refer to apostate 1st century Jerusalem and surrounding Judea, on whom were blamed all the lives taken from Abel to Zechariah
     
  5. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    so

    VOICES => woesome afflictions...
    during which trumpets also sound
     
  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, the voice of a trumpet is the sound it makes when someone blows it. It was a military way to signal troops to perform certain actions like attack or retreat...different sounds/music was played. So these three woe trumps mean they are signaling very serious things to happen.
     
  7. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    aren't you confusing voices e OF Angels for the sounds of their trumpets?
     
  8. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's the same thing.

    Exo_19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

    Rev_8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!


    the voice of the archangel is that archangel blowing the trump

    and lastly that trump of God is mentioned

    when the command is given, and the trump sounds, christ comes.

    it is not christ "shouting" nor is christ sounding the trumpet although in the english it does seem to read that way.

    Rev_10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
     
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  9. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    still see a cause effect

    trumpet sounds => woesome stuff happens

    but I'm not trying to separate the two,

    just distinguish the cause effect order

    eg trumpet is mentioned first, woe last in each block of text
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Seems that way but actually the "woe" is not mentioned last.

    Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    As you see, the woe and the sounding of the trumpet is the same exact thing.
     
  11. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "quickly" in biblical terms where a thousand years is as one day

    the voices in Heaven proclaiming Christ's victory (rev 11:15) was not the 3rd woe for anyone but Babylon (rev 18)
     
  12. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that the judgment against Babylon doesn't occur during the 1st woe nor during the 2nd woe. So I agree the 3rd woe has to do with the judgment against Babylon, among other things as well, such as what is recorded in Revelation 11 during the 7th trumpet. What I don't agree with is that the 3rd woe has to do with any events that occurred in the first century or any time before that. The events of the 3rd woe have to do with the end of this age around the time of the 2nd coming.
     
  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.


    What is past at this point? Is it not the events recorded during the 5th trumpet? What else could it be if not that? Doesn't Revelation 9:1-11 precede verse 12? And does not Revelation 9:1-11 involve events having to do with the sounding of the 5th trumpet?
     
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  14. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    revelation 11:8 is not ambiguous, "the great city" of "Babylon" only fits one city in human history
     
  15. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    yes, the 5th trumpet sounds (rev 9:1-11)...
    resulting in the 1st woe (rev 9:12)
    and so on
     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The source of truth for modern Orthodox Judaism is the Babylonian Talmud.

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
  17. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes which means Christ will also defeat and judge the beast and FP so that means Babylon, beast and FP all are judged and destroyed in the 3rd woe/7th trump.
     
  18. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I wonder why Amils think the 7th trumpet has anything to do with the white throne judgment since none of the events you listed seem to be about the great white throne judgment?
     
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They post from Rev 11:

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


    They wrongly assume the dead being judged here are all the dead, saved and unsaved when actually only the dead in Christ are judged and rise first because Rev 20 says "the rest of the dead" lived not until later and that's also when they are judged. Of course Rev 11 there corresponds with Rev 19 and the whole "destroy them which destroy the earth" which shows no time of the unsaved dead resurrecting for judgment but only mortals being slain who are not being resurrected and judged at the second coming.
     
  20. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Please consider that time statement in revelation 11:17. Which art to come? With wages. That alludes to I am coming quickly and my wages are with me in revelation 22:18.

    Those words were inspired 2000 years ago. And Jesus has yet to arrive a second time. To make a concrete comparison. It would be like, saying. Jesus is coming quickly at the speed of light. But has to travel a great great distance and so even though. Is coming quickly has yet to arrive

    In any event revelation 1117. And 18. Allude to the Second Coming. At the Great White throne judgment. Described in revelation 20. And reiterated in revelation 22. 18. Which have yet to occur

    I think the most natural interpretation? Is to presume that revelation 11 looks far forward in time? To the Great White throne judgment on revelation 20 onwards. Then. The story jumps back and picks back up from revelation 12 on. Gives me the impression that Heaven considers everything from Christ onward to be Earth's final days. The end times plural.
     
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