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Featured Main Problems w "A" or "Post" Millenialism?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DreamerOfTheHeart, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Scripture does not say the first resurrection is for the 144k, nor does it say they ever died. It is more likely that they are the ones that "are alive and remain" when Christ returns. Their seal to me is akin to the mark put on Cain that kept him from being murdered.
     
  2. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just because Rev 20 only focuses on the ones who died in the trib does not mean they are the only ones to resurrect at that time. "the dead in Christ rise first" not part of the dead in Christ but all of them.
     
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Agreed. You might find this interesting:

    Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    Here we have a group of people who are being judged. They don't arrive from any specific place. They are simply there at the great white throne to be judged as if they died where they are being judged. Could it be these are the ones in Rev 20:9 that are killed by fire from God?

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    After the first group are judged there are more that come from the sea and from death and hell. These were not already in the judging area like the first group were. We are seeing the dead being judged in stages. First a group that is not said to have arrived from elsewhere are judged. Then after that people start arriving from 3 places: hell, death and the sea. All of these imply deep dark places.

    I believe that first group were the rebels of the little season and they died here upon the Earth and they were judged here instead of going to hades/hell which normally would occur. Then, those who are elsewhere are brought forth to also be judged.

    This would explain why some are judged first, then others being judged afterwards from 3 separate places. So the last judgment has people who are from 4 different places:

    1. Those already at the throne
    2. Those from the sea
    3. Those from death
    4. Those from hell (hades)
     
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  4. Billy Evmur

    Billy Evmur Brother Supporter

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    mebbe I misunderstood for which I apologise...those are my views :)
     
  5. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    guess they might be standing around God's throne, with Christ upon the same (according to God's will), in judgement over everyone else
     
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  6. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    That, I can agree with, thus see no reason to try and dispute it. That's vastly different than they being among the dead standing in front of God being judged at the time. If they already put on immortality at the last trump, and that the last trump precedes the great white throne judgment, it then makes zero sense that any of them could be among the dead being judged by God at the time.

    2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Is this judgment seat meaning the great white throne judgment though? I don't see how it could be. It appears to be referring to the following though.

    and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great(Revelation 11:18). This can't be meaning the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20.

    Some reasons why it wouldn't be would be the following.

    And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come---and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth(Revelation 11:18). The ones destroying the earth would still be physically alive at this point. The following also proves it---and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail(Revelation 11:19). These things take place once the 7th trumpet has already sounded. None of these events would be occuring at and during the great white throne judgment though.

    Therefore, nothing during the 7th trumpet involves the great white throne judgment. That judgment can't even take place while there are still unsaved ones physically alive and not even dead yet.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  7. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    You could be right. But there is still the following to factor in. They still have to be resurrected in order to stand in front of God at this judgment. Revelation 20:5 indicates the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years. It would have to include these as well.
     
  8. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Of course. Those are the ones who were dead after the first resurrection. Yet, we know there is a group of mortals that are killed after the thousand years who were still alive when the verse spoke of "the rest of the dead". They are killed, and I propose they are the first group of dead who are judged before the dead come from the sea, death and hell. Those first dead didn't go to the sea, or to death or hell and I say it's because they died just before the final judgment takes place so they don't have to come from anywhere to be judged.
     
  9. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I can see this being the case. Makes good sense to me. I was merely pointing out that they still have to be resurrected since they were literally killed when the fire from God out of heaven devours them. So I agree that they don't go to hell first like the others do when they died. Yet they are still resurrected from the dead like everyone else, would be my guess.
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes they will be resurrected. Oddly enough, the resurrection actually isn't mentioned in those last verses but based on an earlier verse we know they will "live again" like the first group did....except no immortality granted.
     
  11. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    the 7th trumpet sounds after the second woe, but before the third COMING SOON

    the 3rd woe = fall of Babylon...

    which precedes the fall of the Beast...

    which precedes the Millennium... Etc.

    indeed, revelation 11:15-19 refers to the toppling of the Statue in Daniel, bowled down by the rock = Church

    it also quotes Jeremiah 51:25, also about BABYLON

    revelation 11:15-19 is all about the JUDGEMENT UNTO WRATH OF BABYLON for the blood of all the saints from Abel onwards, even then nearly 6000 years of sinful bloodshed

    revelation 11:19 = crucifixion tearing the veil of the physical temple
    Babylon's final refusal to repent before the two witnesses of Christ finalizes Babylon's doom, Babylon's crucifixion of Christ on earth now reaches Heaven

    NIV CULTURAL BACKGROUNDS STUDY BIBLE
    11:18 The nations were angry. Quoted from the common Greek translation of Ps 2:1; there, God’s king would respond angrily by destroying the nations (Ps 2:12). your servants the prophets. The OT mentions God’s servants the prophets nearly 20 times, though the image here might apply to all God’s people (cf. Rev 19:10; Nu 11:29; Joel 2:28 – 29). destroying those who destroy the earth. Echoes the common Greek translation of Jer 51:25, perhaps suggesting that the evil empire, like the earlier Babylon, devastates the whole earth.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  12. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The third woe is the 7th trump...the trump cannot sound before the third woe.

    1st woe, 5th trump.
    2nd woe, 6th trump
    3rd woe, 7th trump.


    Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!



    Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
     
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  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Jesus said otherwise in the passage below, unless you cut the word "all" and "hour" out of the passage.

    Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
    Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    Joh 5:29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
    Joh 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.


    You are also making the false assumption that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order.
    Based on Revelation 16:15-20, it cannot be.


     
  14. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    the next time the word woe is used is in revelation 18 = 3rd woe
     
  15. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Do you suffer from memory loss at times, or do you just like to falsely accuse people of things that is not true of them, especially when you should already know it's not true of them? How many times have I already told you that I don't think Revelation is in chronological order from beginning to end? I know I have told you that more than once, probably more than five times thusfar. I'm not angry with you or anything, yet this is getting old that I need to constantly remind you that I don't conclude Revelation is in chronological order from start to finish. Maybe I should put it in my signature---something like this---- I do not conclude Revelation is in chronological order from start to finish. :)

    We still have to apply good common sense though. After the 7th trumpet has sounded, it is followed by at some point, this----and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. The scene is obviously not the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20. If everyone are already dead as of the 7th trumpet, when it initially sounded, you don't plague people with an earthquake, and great hail, after they are already dead. You do that while they are still alive and not dead yet. That's just plain common sense. It's also plain common sense that the great white throne judgment can't take place while there are still unsaved mortals not dead yet but still physically alive.


    So when Revelation 11 indicates----and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great---in context this is referring to the first resurrection per Revelation 20, and not the 2nd resurrection when the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years are finished.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
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  16. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Why can't the third woe involve both the 7th trumpet and the events recorded in Revelation 18?
     
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I think we are somewhat on the same page here, at least in regards to the other passages that are connected with this, as you have shown here. The chronology of these events that you have submitted appear to be correct. I place all of these events at the end of this age. I'm not entirely clear as to where you place these events in time.

    I may have contradicted myself when I indicated --- The chronology of these events that you have submitted appear to be correct----the fact I apparently take the 7th trumpet to involve the first resurrection, but that you don't since you indicated the 7th trumpet precedes the MK. I need to do some rethinking then.
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The best common sense is to believe the words of the Son of God found in John 5:27-30, instead of trying to make a man-made doctrine work.

    I am glad you are not angry with me, because I am not angry with you, either...


    .
     
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It doesn't appear in KJV Rev 18.
     
  20. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not that this is important, but there is no "woe" in Rev 18.

    Rev_8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

    Rev_9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

    Rev_11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

    Rev_12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    This is the only time the word is found in Rev. Rev 12 is speaking of the 42 month trib which would be the 2nd woe trump so the use of the word here might be a nod to that trumpet woe since it is the correct timeframe. But nothing found in Rev 18.
     
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