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Featured Main Problems w "A" or "Post" Millenialism?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DreamerOfTheHeart, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Correct, my entire post was in reference to the 2nd resurrection, not the 1st.
     
  2. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Please provide scripture to support this statement, otherwise I will just assume this is your own personal, made-up interpretation.
     
  3. Billy Evmur

    Billy Evmur Brother Supporter

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    But He does not say that this will be a permanent situation, that generation was judged, but you can't carry that on to all generations.

    The Jews were dispersed, guess what? they were dispersed to all the nations where the gospel was going, there have always been Jews in the church.

    Nobody denies that they have stumbled, have they stumbled so as to fall GOD FORBID. They have suffered this hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

    As touching election they are enemies of the gospel for your sakes but BELOVED for the sake of the fathers for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    Those who were rejected will be accepted, those who were diminished will attain to the fullness, those who were grafted out will be grafted back in.

    It was not the remnant who were rejected but rebel Israel
    the remnant were not rejected or diminished or grafted out it was the Christ rejecters...they are, says Paul to be restored....in God's time.
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Your post above contains a severe contradiction.

    First you say there have always been Jews in the Church, which is a true statement.
    When the Church began on the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts chapter 2.
    On that day part of Israel became the Church.
    This agrees with what Paul said in Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:1-5.

    Then you turn around and say "they" have suffered "hardening", until "the times of the Gentiles be come in".


    Both of those statements cannot be correct.

    Secondly, based on Luke 21:24-28 the "times of the Gentiles" comes to fullness at the future Second Coming of Christ.

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  5. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 23:39 ?
     
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
    1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
    1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
    1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
    1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


    There were also many of the 3,000 on the Day of Pentecost, who had seen Him crucified a few weeks earlier.
    That fact may also apply to the fulfillment of the verse, but I am not sure.


    Everyone of the Pharisees who opposed Him will be resurrected from the dead and will see Him at the judgment, based on the scripture below.
    We do not know if any of them became believers, after His resurrection from the dead. Nicodemus may have.


    Mat_10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

    Mat_11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

    Mat_11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

    Mat_12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

    Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

    Mat_12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

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  7. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 26:29?
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Mat 26:27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
    Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
    Mat 26:29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."
    Mat 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

    Many pastors read from the text above when their church body celebrates the Lord's Supper.

    We will most certainly celebrate it with Him, after His Second Coming.

    We also know that He did eat with them after His resurrection from the dead. (Luke 24:41-43)


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  9. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    per LXX creation was 5500 BC

    and a biblical day is a thousand years

    Crucifixion was middle of the sixth biblical day (biblical Friday)

    Millennium = biblical Saturday Sabbath = Christian Byzantine empire

    biblical eighth day Sunday Resurrection = (counter) reformation to today

    ?


    -----
    5500-4500 BC = Biblical Sunday
    to 3500 BC = biblical Monday
    to 2500 BC = biblical Tuesday = Noah
    to 1500 BC = biblical Wednesday = Abraham & patriarchs
    to 500 BC = biblical Thursday = Moses & judges & kings
    to 500 AD = biblical Friday = Crucifixion & Church
    to 1500 AD = biblical Saturday Sabbath = Millennium = Constantinople & Christendom
    to 2500 AD = biblical eighth day Sunday = ? Gog & Magog ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  10. Billy Evmur

    Billy Evmur Brother Supporter

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    My quote was from Paul's teaching.

    For I would not brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery [but brethren have become ignorant of this mystery] lest ye should be wise in your own conceits...

    ...that a blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

    And so all Israel will be saved as it is written. There shall come out of Zion a Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant with them when I shall take away their sins.

    As concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes, but as touching election they are beloved for the sakes of the fathers. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    Those who YOU say are cast out God calls His beloved...that would worry me.

    Those who were saved at Pentecost are the remnant, but the remnant were not cast out or diminished or rejected or grafted out but those who rejected Christ. And it is THEY, the Christ rejecters who Paul says will be received and accepted and attain to the fullness. They will be grafted back in.

    There is no contradiction.
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Was all of Israel "partially blinded", or was part of Israel blinded and part was not blinded?

    The answer is found in Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:1-5.


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  12. Billy Evmur

    Billy Evmur Brother Supporter

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    Yes but what I am saying and Paul says it is the part which was blinded who will be restored, not the remnant.

    "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world and the diminishing of them the riches of the gentiles, how much more their fullness?.......

    ......for if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world what shall be the receiving of them be but life from the dead?

    For if the firstfruit be holy the lump is also holy and if the root be holy so are the branches"
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Once again, your statement above contains a severe contradiction.


    The "remnant" is made up of those who accept Christ.


    Are you claiming every single person who considers themselves Jewish will come to faith in Christ?

    Do you think Paul was wrong in Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27?


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  14. Billy Evmur

    Billy Evmur Brother Supporter

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    You must understand the Remnant.

    Isaiah said "if God had not saved us a remnant we would have fared as Sodom and as Gomorrah."

    But Israel did not fare as Sodom and Gomorrah, those nations were destroyed. Israel was preserved, dispersed but preserved...rather miraculously, no other people have survived as a nation without a homeland.

    And the remnant turned back the whole house of Israel to God.

    You say the seed of Isaac, but that IS Israel, all Israel. It was the seed of Isaac who rejected Christ, who were rejected, diminished, grafted out etc

    It is these who Paul says in Ro.11 says will be accepted, who will attain to the fullness, who will be grafted back into their own vine.

    Understand my brother how Paul writes, his teaching on Israel covers 3 chapters during which he argues back and forth, to and fro, pro and con...that is Paul's teaching style.

    But Romans 11. is his summing up of the whole debate.

    Israel has not stumbled so as to fall, God forbid! [you keep saying they HAVE...stop that]
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Once again, your statements above contain contradictions which do not match what is found in the Bible.

    As far as I know, I never mentioned the name Isaac in our conversation. You made up that part about...

    "You say the seed of Isaac".
    You are attempting to put words into my mouth, that were not there.

    Paul was the seed of Isaac, and based on Romans 11:1-5, all of Isaac's seed did not reject Christ.

    Romans 11 contains two different groups of Israelites, one faithful, and one not. You are attempting to cut all of the Israelite branches out of the Olive Tree to make your doctrine work.
    The "remnant" in Romans 11:5 proves that you are wrong.



    All of the branches are not broken off in the verse below.

    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

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    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  16. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    the 144,000?
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
    Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
    Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


    Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.


    2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


    Rev 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

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    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  18. Fascinated With God

    Fascinated With God Traditional Apostolic Methodist

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    You only refer to the 2nd resurrection, after the millennium of peace and then the 2nd tribulation. Nothing you said has any relevance what-so-ever to the 1st resurrection that parallels the resurrection of the Army of Israel in Ezekiel. THAT is the resurrection that counts. Revelation gives short shrift to the 2nd tribulation and thus the 2nd resurrection is equally as perfunctory. The 2nd resurrection is for commoners, the poor in spirit.

    The 1st resurrection is for the elite 144,000 who will declare angelic martial law across the entire planet.
     
  19. Fascinated With God

    Fascinated With God Traditional Apostolic Methodist

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    Rev 20:6 describes the 1st resurrection being for an elite few who will rule with Christ for the millennium. The 2nd resurrection is quite obviously for everyone else.

    I was just being poetic referring to the Sermon on the Mount, but I got my verses confused. It is the meek who inherit the Earth. The members of the 1st resurrection clearly are not meek. And I consider the 2nd resurrection the time at which the humans truly inherit the Earth. If not then when?
     
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Why do you think that? After all, I am Premil. Premils believe there is a thousand years after the 2nd coming, and that it precedes the great white throne judgment. Some though are claiming everyone is judged at the great white throne judgment, including saints who have already put on immortality at the last trump once it sounds. That is what I was questioning, how that can even be possible. Some think the great white throne judgment begins at the 2nd coming. I don't though. But even if it does there would still be no saved ones who have already put on immortality at the last trump in attendance there.
     
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