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Featured Main Problems w "A" or "Post" Millenialism?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DreamerOfTheHeart, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    Works do not determine one's fate or salvation. It is only by grace that we have been saved.
    Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

    Notice Paul's words: He states those whose works are precious stones built on the foundation of Christ will be rewarded. Those whose works are straw built on the foundation of Christ will be burned, but HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED.
    1 corinthians 3:13-15 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

    The point of works is to be rewarded for them, but they do not save or make us righteous or determine our fate.

    We are saved solely by grace of God through faith

    Then all of us would be punished, for no one is justified by works.
    Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

    But thanks be to God, who has fulfilled the requirements of the law in us through his son.
    Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    It is only those who are in Christ, the book of life, that are saved. No one is saved by their good works.

    Let's look at the parable of the sheep and goats

    Notice the response of the righteous (sheep). The righteous have a humble response" when did we do these things for you?"

    Matthew 25:37-40 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’

    The sheep were not pursuing a righteousness but attained it by faith
    Romans 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith

    Notice the not so humble response of the goats: "when did we NOT do these things for you"
    Matthew 25:44-45 Then they also will answer, saying,
    ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’

    The goats pursued righteousness but did not obtain it
    Romans 9:31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.

  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    United States
    Good post.
    Sounds similar to this simile by Jesus in Luke 6:

    House of the Pharisees

    Luke 6: [Matthew 7:26-27 "house on sand"]
    46 And why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I say?
    47 Everyone who is coming to Me, and hearing My words, and doing them,
    I will show you whom he is like.
    48 He is like to a man building a house who digs and deepens, and places a foundation on the Rock.
    And a flood having come, the stream burst upon that house, and was not able to shake it, because it had been built well.

    49 But the one having heard and not having done is like to a man having built a house on the ground without a foundation, on which the stream burst forth,
    and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.

    Paul, the great "architect”

    1 Corinthians 3:
    10 According to the grace of God that was given to me, as a wise master-builder/architect<753>, a foundation I have laid, and another doth build on [it],
    11 for other foundation no one is able to lay except that which is laid, which is Jesus the Christ;
    12 and if any one doth build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw —

    The Temple in 70ad laid to waste as prophecied:
    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
    "The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins"

    Revelation 18:12
    12 “merchandise of
    gold and silver, precious stones and pearls,
    fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory,
    every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble;
    20 'Be glad over Her, O heaven and ye holy apostles and prophets,
    because God did judge your judgment of Her!

    Reminds me of this passage of David, Solomon and the House of God:

    1 Chronicles 29:2
    1 Furthermore King David said to all the assembly:
    “My son Solomon, whom alone God has chosen, is young and inexperienced; and the work is great, because the temple is not for man but for the LORD God.

    2 “Now for the House of my God I have prepared with all my might:
    gold for things to be made of gold, silver for things of silver, bronze for things of bronze, iron for things of iron, wood for things of wood, onyx stones, stones to be set, glistening stones of various colors, all kinds of precious stones, and marble slabs in abundance.


    Last edited: Nov 17, 2018
  3. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

    Well, this makes no sense to me. Can you try to convince me please?
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  4. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

    Can you explain this to me please. Why do you say that Armageddon is the location where the Roman Legions came ashore.

    Please also explain to me why you say the beast of the sea was the roman empire.

    And this one. If you believe the thousand years is already over then you must also believe that Jesus has handed over the kingdom to God the father. Is this what you believe?

    And here you have a very specific year. What happened in 1453?
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  5. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    1453 AD = Fall of Constantinople, end of Byzantine Christian empire (you could watch the movie Fetih 1453)

    Jesus hands everything over only at the very end of earth time, at the final Judgement at the full physical Second Coming = Revelation 20:9+

    Beast crawling out of the sea onto land = Roman empire coming across the Mediterranean into Judea, the Beast = 7 heads = 7 hills = 7 hills of Rome (vital trivia fact), who called the Mediterranean Mare Nostrum ("our sea"), they called themselves the "sea empire" of the Mediterranean (also important trivia fact)

    When Nero's legions landed in Judea in 66 AD, they did so just about at the feet of Mount Megiddo in Galilee, as it happens to have happened (note that Judea was conquered from Galilee, sweeping southwards, as it happens to have happened)
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  6. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    United States

    If the ones being judged at the great white throne judgment are only the lost, then a lot of the passages you supplied above are not applicable in that case.

    As to the sheep and goats judgment, which is not the great white throne judgment, take note how the goats, as a group, answer Jesus.

    Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    Only professed servants of Christ could answer like that. Unbelieving Jews, for example, certainly wouldn't be answering Christ like that, the fact unbelieving Jews deny Christ and are not professed servants of His. Context, we have to interpret things in context if we expect to arrive at any correct conclusions.

    The goats in Matthew 25 are clearly referring to the following, as one example.

    Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
    49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
  7. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

  8. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    United States
    Very interesting.
    Where would Mt Megiddo be in relation to the "Gehenna" mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 23? Thanks

    Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?
    Gehenna and Jerusalem

    Matthew 23:
    15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! That ye are going about the sea and the dry<3584> to make one proselyte,
    and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV<1067> twofold-more of ye-selves
    33 "Serpents! brood of vipers!
    how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
    the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!............
    [Ezekiel 39:12/Revelation 14:11 Revelation 19:3]

    Gehenna - Wikipedia

    Location in Jerusalem, south of Mount Zion is a small valley in Jerusalem.
    In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire.[1]
    Thereafter, it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).[2]

    In the King James Version of the Bible, the term appears 13 times in 11 different verses as Valley of Hinnom, Valley of the son of Hinnom or Valley of the children of Hinnom.

    The Valley of Hinnom is the modern name for the valley surrounding Jerusalem's Old City, including Mount Zion, from the west and south.
    It meets and merges with the Kidron Valley, the other principal valley around the Old City, near the southeastern corner of the city.

    Map of The Siege of Jerusalem

    Beginning April, A.D.70, Forty Years to the Week from the Crucifixion of Christ | The temple was burnt August 10, A. D. 70, the exact same day and month on which it had been burnt by the king of Babylon: Josephus, Ant. b. xx. c. 11. s. 8.

    map assault-map_vespasian_01.jpg

    Jerusalem 70ad  map_legions_ad70.jpg


    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
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  9. ewq1938

    ewq1938 I rhyme, therefore I'm. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

    United States

    Unless those are being misinterpreted. Surely they cannot contradict what Rev says? As you have admitted, after the last resurrection the people are still called the dead and there is only one possibility to explain that. Living people who are also dead means they are spiritually dead, unsaved. That means no saved people are being judged at that time which also means there was a previous day of judgment for the saved dead.

    So take a look and try to reconsider your position on when the saved and unsaved dead are judged:

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs. Even the Amill scholar Barnes believes not only is there a judgment here but also states it is these dead martyrs that are being judged and there is only one judgment for them, eternal life!

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    John sees two groups of people/souls:

    1. people sitting on thrones and judgment given to them
    2. souls of the tribulation martyrs who instead of remaining dead are said to live with Christ

    Claiming 1 and 2 are the same group doesn't make any sense. Those judging are not the second group mentioned. It can only be that second group of martyrs that were being judged and the judgment has to be a resurrection to life which we know is the reward for the dead in Christ.

    We see the same event in Daniel:

    Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

    Here are multiple thrones and God the Father himself sitting there.

    Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

    And here again judgment is mentioned and a large group standing before him. This must be the dead in Christ being judged to life because it cannot apply to the unsaved because the beast hasn't yet been slain:

    Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    This beast of course is also seen in Rev 19 being destroyed at the return of Christ. What we then have been given is a judgment of a group before the beast is destroyed so that group must be the saved being judged to eternal life as we also see in Rev 20.

    Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

    And just like it is for the thousand years, some "beasts" (the wicked/unsaved/and satan himself) have their lives prolonged. Indeed during the thousand years satan and many unsaved gentiles of the world's nations will live through the thousand years.

    Another example of the righteous being judged separately from the wicked:

    Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous. Exactly what Daniel 7 and Rev 20 also show.

    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Christ does not address time in this but according to Rev 20, there is a period of time inbetween the judgment of the dead in Christ vs. the rest of the dead so we know there is time inbetween these two judgments.

    1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    As you can see, the righteous are judged FIRST. Judgment starts with "us" as Peter confirms.
  10. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

    United States

    But, no. Though, the great things of God echo through many things.

    Small light - some light - was given as people could understand, through the nations, long ago, as it is today. The 'pure language' that is to come, is not yet. So, how can you speak to people, from a very alien land, where there is no language for them? Such as explaining to a primitive, jungle tribe what 'snow' is, when they live near the equator.

    Or, how it is with Japan, if you have never been there. Different customs, different ways.

    The 'Lord of all the earth', is God. They are the two annointed ones, and the word 'annointed' does mean 'Messiah' and also 'Christ'.

    They are the two olives trees, the two golden pipes, which supply the oil to the bowl and the seven lamps.

    Golden oil is olive oil, which was used in lamps.

    It is interesting that Jesus walks among the Seven Lampstands, as this is something to us, in the Night. But, during the Day, where there is no Night, there is no longer any reason for lamps.
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  11. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

    United States
    Hahahaha.... :)

    You must be reading the replies to the other poster, as I said everything, there, and I do not think for him. (But, I hope, I am wrong.)

    It is part of the 'Mystery of God', however, and I do not believe that people will be able to believe, on earth, until after the dead are resurrected and the kingdoms of the world have been destroyed.

    There are several reasons for this, but a major reason, certainly is, 'they do not need to believe this'. All I have any requirement to do, is to present the possibility of it happening. People are not persuaded by such things right away, often. But, if it is true, the Spirit brings it to mind. If the Lord wishes people to know.

    What are these two, to many people?

    Ezekiel 33

    31 My people come to you, as they usually do, and sit before you to hear your words, but they do not put them into practice. Their mouths speak of love, but their hearts are greedy for unjust gain. 32 Indeed, to them you are nothing more than one who sings love songs with a beautiful voice and plays an instrument well, for they hear your words but do not put them into practice.

    33 “When all this comes true—and it surely will—then they will know that a prophet has been among them.”

    Zechariah 4

    I answered, “I see a solid gold lampstand with a bowl at the top and seven lamps on it, with seven channels to the lamps. 3 Also there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.”

    11 Then I asked the angel, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”

    12 Again I asked him, “What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?”

    14 So he said, “These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth.”

    b -- or, anointed to bring oil to the Lord of the whole earth

    Revelation 11

    3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[a]

    The message in Zechariah is much about, for symbolic purposes, the rebuilding of Israel, after the return of some tens of thousands of exiles, from Babylon.

    Zerubbabel is the appointed 'king' and 'Joshua' is the 'High Priest'.

    The bowl with the Seven Lamps, is a menorah, and made reminiscent of Jesus appearing to John, through the Angel of Jesus, at the beginning of Revelation.

    The two annointed ones produce the olives which make the golden oil, that gives light to the lamp. They also are the pipes which deliver the oil to that bowl, and lights the lamps. The lamps are 'the seven churches', while the 'seven stars' in the right hand, are said to be 'the angels of the seven churches'.

    This figures back, to Zechariah, about the 'seven faceted stone', which Joshua 'sees before him', a verse which later is spoken of in Zechariah four, about the 'seven Spirits of God who roam through the earth', and 'rejoice when they see the 'chosen capstone in the hand of Zerubbabbel'.

    Here, they are discussing the rebuilding of the Temple.

    If you notice, Zerubabbel is as a king, and Joshua is as a High Priest, but, we know, in Jesus, they are One, the One King and the One High Priest.

    This is not a Temple which is 'made by human hands', but the rock which is 'cut out' and smashes the Statue of Daniel.

    How is it that these are the two called the Annointed, even the Messiah and the Christ, and yet deliver the oil to the Lord?

    Is Jesus not the only Christ, the only Messiah, the only Annointed?

    Did Jesus grow the olives and deliver the crushed down olives into olive oil to that lamp? Yes, he did, and this is why it is said of Zerubbabel, 'the one who laid the foundation is the one who completes it'.

    But, we see as Jesus as the One depicted as 'he who walks among the Seven Lampstands and has the Seven Stars in his hand'. So, this is represented there, as Jesus returning.

    We see of Zerubbabel, God was not speaking about that king, in the delivering of the capstone, and causing the Seven Spirits to rejoice. Because that is speaking of Jesus. Likewise, with Joshua, he was put before the Seven Sided Stone, and told 'follow my requirements, and you will judge my house'. That was not about Joshua, nor even Moses, but about Jesus.

    Jesus is the King and the High Priest, so you seem them both as the Anointed, and both as identical, the two Olive Trees and the two Golden Pipes.

    Yet, something new is introduced. As Jesus and the Two Witnesses have 'gone away, and you do not see them any longer', 'for righteousness sake'. These three prophesy for 3 and a half years, and are killed by Satan, and then resurrected up. These three, then, rise up to Heaven, and the world does not see them any longer.

    What we see return is the Rider on the White Horse, delivering the Kingdom through Angels, and then, 'the Great King', of the 'Great City', which Jesus spoke of as 'Jerusalem'.

    Finally, Jesus speaks of himself as 'the first and the last', and in terms of being 'the faithful Witness'.

    Jesus did prophesy during three and a half years, which was how long his ministry was. He did not speak for himself, but as God told him to speak. God testified on his behalf, through the miracles God gave him. After those three and a half years were over, Satan entered the heart of Judas, and betrayed him. And, Satan, as 'the prince of this world', had the kingdoms of Israel and Rome kill him -- Satan was the one 'guilty of a greater crime', Jesus spoke of, when he spoke to Pontius Pilate about 'the one over your head'.

    When Zechariah saw Joshua, he was dressed in poor clothing, which is as representative of that very sackcloth.

    That scene is also representative of how Satan was accusing him, while he was dressed in those poor clothes.

    The Two Witnesses were accused by Satan during that time. They demanded the world be given over to God, to the elect angels, and to those who 'follow the commands of God'.

    After their ascension, it was 'by their blood', which enabled Michael and his angels, to finally banish Satan to earth, so that he no longer had access to God and Heaven so as to gain knowledge and accuse them. Such as how Satan was before God with Job. Now, Satan has to work through the people he is in and has control over, and as a spirit from afar against the believers.

    As for the specific identity, or how these things make sense, these things, alone, are difficult enough to process, right now. Much less, identifying, specifically, the two witnesses. As God did with me, is all I ask, as I did: that is, to keep an open mind, and consider the possibility that this has already happened. It is the one verse people would tend to think has not already happened, as they will think the whole world could not have viewed these two... without the whole world being consciously aware of who they are.

    Otherwise, it is not so strange, as one can try and make it. We all have different lives, and different roles. A solider who fought in Vietnam, for instance, may have then settled down, back home, and live as a businessman. Two different lives. (I am not saying it was literally so shallow, far from it, they really were killed, really were resurrected, and really were seen by people after they were resurrected. Further, they really did ascend to Heaven.)

    (I am just saying, a person is who they are, even if their roles and circumstances change. )

    (A change in clothes, as Zechariah was shown with Joshua, does not mean, the person wearing those clothes is a totally different person. But, a change in clothes is how people see them differently. And, with the Rider on the White Horse, you see his clothes are 'dipped in blood'.)
  12. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    The dead being judged at the GWTJ are not only the lost. Revelation 20:15 explicitly states that "IF" anyone is NOT FOUND in the book of life, they face the 2nd death. This clearly shows that not only the unrighteous are present at the GWTJ, but that the righteous are as well.
    Revelation 20:15 and if anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    A man passes away and has a will. The will is read by a lawyer to the deceased's family. The Lawyer states anyone whose name is not in the will, inherits nothing. Does this mean that only those whose names are not in the will are present at the lawyer's meeting?

    The GWTJ is the resurrection of the just and unjust. The unjust are thrown into the lake of fire (2nd death; eternal punishment). The just enter the new Jerusalem (eternal life)
    Revelation 20:15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
    Revelation 22:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who practices an abomination or a lie, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
    2 timothy 4:18 Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom.

    The book of life contains the names of the righteous
    Psalm 69:28 May they be erased from the book of life and not listed with the righteous.

    People are only credited as righteous before God through faith because of Christ
    Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
    Romans 3:22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

    Therefore those whose names are in the book of life are those who have faith.
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  13. Billy Evmur

    Billy Evmur Brother Supporter

    United Kingdom
    The last resurrection and the great white throne judgement take place 1,000 years after the resurrection of the just [so shall we ever be with the Lord] and after the saints have reigned with Christ 1,000 years...Paul teaches that God will bring us with Him to this judgement.

    I put it therefore to you that whoever are being judged at the great white throne it is not the church.

    Those who receive an inheritance [as with the sheep and goats] do so on account of deeds...we are saved by grace through faith.
  14. Billy Evmur

    Billy Evmur Brother Supporter

    United Kingdom
    They are ALL Jews, the fathers were Jews, the prophets were Jews and Jesus is the King of the Jews. The Hebrews letter was written by a Jew for Jews.
  15. Billy Evmur

    Billy Evmur Brother Supporter

    United Kingdom
    Paul was speaking about the Jews who persecuted the church at Jerusalem, that generation of Jews not all Jews always.

    Remember Jesus also said that "upon this generation will come the blood of all the prophets from Abel to Zechariah"

    The sins of the fathers no longer fall upon the children...that is old testament.
  16. Billy Evmur

    Billy Evmur Brother Supporter

    United Kingdom
    Your problem is very simple...you read about the great white throne judgement and believe it. But in the passage before the passage about the great white throne is the passage about the 1,000 year reign of the saints with Christ, but you don't believe that bit.

    So one passage you say yes, yes I believe that's true, but the passage before you say no, no that can't be true.

    There is a 1,000 years between the rapture and the great white throne.
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    No Jews as heirs in His Will.

    Only His Son.
  18. Billy Evmur

    Billy Evmur Brother Supporter

    United Kingdom
    God promised the Jews the nations as their heritage, wheresoever their feet hath trod. That has always been understood by the Jews as God's promise to them and it was.

    Now if God reneges on that promise [perish the thought] what confidence can YOU have that He will not renege on His promise to YOU?

    God will never renege.

    And it is not as though the church has been an overwhelming success in fulfilling the commission given to her.
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    God did promise the land to Abraham's seed.
    Its fulfillment is found below.

    Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
    Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
    Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
    Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
    Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
    Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    The "son" is the "heir" to the land.
    He said so in His own words above.
    He paid for it in blood at Calvary.

    He said the kingdom would be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone", and it would be given to another nation bearing fruit.
    That nation is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.

    Some people try to replace the "son" who is the "heir", with those who reject Him.
    This is the worst kind of "Replacement Theology".

    See Galatians 3:16 to see what Paul had to say about who is Abraham's seed.

    What does God think about those who reject His son, in the passage below?

    1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

    The scripture found above kills the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

    God has not made any promise, to those who reject His Son.


  20. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    between the millennium and final judgement is the "little time" (mikros chronos) of gog and Magog, probably wise not to gloss over that significant period