Main Problems w "A" or "Post" Millenialism?

[Fascinated With God]

And God's wrath remains on the unbelievers until the end.
“forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the anger did come upon them—to the end!” (1 Thessalonians 2:16) (YLT)

Out of 28 English translations on biblehub.com, only 3 translations say "end". 12 versions say, "at last", 13 say, " to the uttermost", and one occurrence of "overtaken" followed by another phrase instead of "at last". Only Douary-Rheims and the Aramaic Bible say "end" along with the YLT.

Also, the Greek word for "come" is clearly past or present tense, not future tense. From Strong's Lexicon:

to come before, precede, anticipate​

Thus it is clearly a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, the Diaspora and the taxus judacius. Two of the 3 commentaries BibleHub provides on the verse refer to the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[Fascinated With God]

The first resurrection will be for the saved, the second one for the lost...

It doesn't call them lost, it just calls them "the nations". The 1st resurrection is only for the 144,000.

 

[Dave L]

Out of 28 English translations on biblehub.com, only 3 translations say "end". 12 versions say, "at last", 13 say, " to the uttermost", and one occurrence of "overtaken" followed by another phrase instead of "at last". Only Douary-Rheims and the Aramaic Bible say "end" along with the YLT.

Also, the Greek word for "come" is clearly past or present tense, not future tense. From Strong's Lexicon:

to come before, precede, anticipate​

Thus it is clearly a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, the Diaspora and the taxus judacius. Two of the 3 commentaries BibleHub provides on the verse refer to the destruction of Jerusalem.

The verification for "end" is in our preaching the gospel to the gentiles until the end of the world. So the time of the gentiles remain until then. And only those who accept Christ will escape God's wrath.

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matthew 28:19–20) (KJV 1900)

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36) (KJV 1900)

 

[claninja]

The point being, the dead in Christ are obviously raised from the dead as well, but they are not raised from the dead when those that are in attendance at the great white throne judgment are. If Scripture says the dead in Christ rise first, it means what it says, thus no resurrection of the lost occurring at the same time since that would make it a moot point about the dead in Christ rising first. Not to mention, the great white throne judgment can't precede the fulfilling of Revelation 19:17-21, nor the fulfilling of Revelation 20:9, and that the last trump and the rapture both precede these events. And speaking of the rapture, no one in the rapture even dies, so how can they, too, be raised from the dead in order to be judged at the great white throne judgment?

I would have to disagree. At the great white throne judgment, there are 2 groups of people: those in the book of life and those not found in the book of life.
Revelation 20:22-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

If Christians "are not raised from the dead when those are in attendance at the great white throne judgment", then are you saying that of the dead at the great white throne judgment, there is none with a name found in the book of life?

 

[claninja]

Like I pointed out though, in the rapture no one dies. Why then does someone that doesn't even die need to be resurrected from the grave in order to be at this judgment?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Found this similarity and thought it was interesting:

Jesus Christ is the foundation and IF we are in Christ, we are in the book of life. Our works are judged by the consuming fire that is God, and if those works survive, we are rewarded for those works. If those works are burned, then we will suffer loss, BUT WE WILL STILL BE SAVED, albeit painfully.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, his workmanship will be evident, because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

Notice those who are thrown into the lake of fire (2nd death) are not put there because of their deeds, good or bad, written in the books (plural). They are thrown in the lake of fire because they are not written in the book of life, they are not in Christ.
Revelation 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So it is not our works, good or bad, that save us, but being in Christ, in the book of life, that saves us.

So when does Jesus reward for those works? And you believe the day that he rewards is different then when he punishes those who are not in the book of life?

 

[Billy Evmur]

The Kingdom began with Christ. And continues eternally.

The Millennium is a 1000 year phase. A 1000 years stage. A 1000 year epoch in the History. Of the Church Kingdom of Christ.

It's like the Golden Age. High Watermark of the church. Before the Millennium. The church is growing and increasing in power. From the cross forward in time. After the Millennium, the church evidently. Suffers under the onslaught of gog and Magog.

Nevertheless, the church exists the entire time. The Kingdom of Christ exists the entire time. Even though there is a 1000 year. Glorious Golden Age in the middle.

Only during that Golden age is Satan bound.

All good...but the church will be the heavenly body...the Jews will inherit the earth.

 

[jgr]

All good...but the church will be the heavenly body...the Jews will inherit the earth.

No Jews according to this writer.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dave L said: ↑
And God's wrath remains on the unbelievers until the end.
“forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the anger did come upon them—to the end!” (1 Thessalonians 2:16) (YLT)

Out of 28 English translations on biblehub.com, only 3 translations say "end".
Thus it is clearly a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, the Diaspora and the taxus judacius. Two of the 3 commentaries BibleHub provides on the verse refer to the destruction of Jerusalem.

I agree it is referring to the destruction of the 1st century OC Jews and Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:6 -
“And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled! for it is binding to be becoming<1096>,
but not as yet is being the end<5056>
Mark 13:7 -
“Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and tidings of battles, do not be troubled! for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the end<5056>
Luke 21:9 -
“Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and tumults, do not be being terrified; for it is binding these things to be becoming,
but not immediately the end<5056>

1 Corinthians 15:24 -
Thereafter the end<5056>,
when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He should be nullifying every chief/original and every authority and power.

1 Peter 4:7 -
Yet the end<5056> of all things is nigh;
be sane! then and sober/watchful into prayers.

Revelation 2:26 -
“And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end<5056>,
to him I will give power over the nations—

Revelation 21:6
And He said to me, “It is finished/ended!<5056>


.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

the messianic Age as per the scriptures , will be the time when King Jesus reigns here upon the earth, as there will be no wars, no famines, no natural disasters, but paradise restored, as the Curse over creation will be lifted!

I agree with Jesus reigning. People will see even the Kingdom of God. Jesus does not come alone, but comes with the Angels of His Father.

Jesus will reign with the saints, they will have immortality.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

The 1000 years will be a literal/physical reigning of Jesus here on earth!

Jesus will reign here, on earth, with his saints for a thousand years.

Jesus does not come alone, but brings with him the angels of His Father.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

And I maintain that such statements as "just look around you... or Just look at history, the tv news, etc..." is not a reasonable, reliable method of Bible exegesis.

Such ALWAYS sends up huge red flags for me.

If you can't Make your case with scripture and instead have to rely on statements such as "look around, look at the last 1500 years...it's obvious this hasn't happened..." then you really have no scriptural argument, do you?

I have made plenty of arguments from Scripture on pre-millenialism.

I even just wrote a paper this week and posted it on this subforum arguing for amillenialism, arguments which I believe, quite bluntly, are far better arguments then I have heard from any amillenialist here for their own beliefs.

If you have not even entertained the possibility the Millennium has not come yet, you are not living by my standard. You should approach all matters of seriousness considering different angles, otherwise, you are biased.

The text in Revelation is very clear for pre-millenialism, at this time. When the Millennium comes, then, that will not be the case.

There is not much text in Chapter Twenty, which details the Millennium. None of that text which is there supports current Millenialism. The only way to argue it does if you believe the Seventh Trumpet has sounded. And you believe the Beast and False Prophet has been destroyed. These are not things most aMillenialists believe have happened yet.

If they have not happened, then Satan has been deceiving the nations, and the kingdom of the world has been under the dominion of Satan.

As it is not until after the Seventh Trumpet sounds that the 'kingdom of the world' becomes 'the Kingdom of God and his Christ'.

So, Christ can not rule on an earth which is Satan's dominion. And Satan deceives people while it is his dominion.

Further, how could the saints have rejected the mark of the beast, and been beheaded by the beast if the beast has not even come yet?

None of it makes any sense -- it is entirely unscriptural.

 

[claninja]

I agree with Jesus reigning. People will see even the Kingdom of God

Only those born again can see the kingdom of God

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:3

 

[Erik Nelson]

As it is not until after the Seventh Trumpet sounds that the 'kingdom of the world' becomes 'the Kingdom of God and his Christ'.

So, Christ can not rule on an earth which is Satan's dominion. And Satan deceives people while it is his dominion.

Further, how could the saints have rejected the mark of the beast, and been beheaded by the beast if the beast has not even come yet?

None of it makes any sense -- it is entirely unscriptural.

When Revelation was written in the first century. The Kingdom of the world was the Roman Empire.

The Roman Empire became the Roman Catholic Church, of Christ, the Messiah of God, 1800 years ago, by the Ministry of Saint Lawrence.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

When Revelation was written in the first century. The Kingdom of the world was the Roman Empire.

The Roman Empire became the Roman Catholic Church, of Christ, the Messiah of God, 1800 years ago, by the Ministry of Saint Lawrence.

Hello Eric.
Informative post.
Have you and/or others ever study on this greek word #G3625? [It is used in 3 verses of Revelation]
Here is some info on it

Strong's Greek: 3625. οἰκουμένη (oikoumené) -- the inhabited earth

3625 oikoumene feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by implication, of 1093);
land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:--earth, world.........
3611 oikeo oy-keh'-o from 3624; to occupy a house, i.e. reside (figuratively, inhabit, remain, inhere); by implication, to cohabit:--dwell. See also 3625.........
3306. meno men'-o a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy)
3624 oikos oy'-kos of uncertain affinity; a dwelling (more or less extensive, literal or figurative); by implication, a family (more or less related, literally or figuratively):--home, house(-hold), temple.

Discussion from another forum I was on:

Reply #1: οικουμενη (oi-kou-MEN-ay — the latter syllable of which rhymes with ‘day’) is the present feminine passive participle of the verb οικεω (oi-KEH-oh), the transitive sense of which is ‘live’, ‘dwell’. In 1 Timothy 6:16 the verb is used in an intransitive sense meaning ‘live in’.
There is no single English word that includes the entire semantic range of οικουμενη , which includes the following per BDAG:
ικουμενη is the Greek word from which we get the English work "ecumenical". It was the word used to describe synods of the whole (ie, universal) church (ie, the Ecumenical Councils).
Reply #4 On a related note: "catholic" does not mean universal - it means complete. If the Greek-speaking Church had wanted to speak of the universal Church, they would have used the word οικουμενικος, not καθολικος.

Luke 2:1
And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625> should be registered.
Matthew 24:14
“And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625> as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Acts 11:28
Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625>, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar.

3 times in Revelation

Revelation 3:10
‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you out of the hour of that trial which is about to be coming upon the whole earth/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625>,
to try those who dwell on the land.
Revelation 12:9
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole earth/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625>; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 16:14
For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and[fn] of the whole earth/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625>, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

A couple of threads on that word. [They didn't garner much interest]......

OIKOUMENE (#3625) - (w00t!)

The Greek word "oikoumene" is translated "the inhabited Roman world".
The Greek word is a preterists sheer delight as I will demonstrate now.

Here are NT verses in which this Greek word occurs:

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world (oikoumene #3625) should be taxed.

Luke 2:1

And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world (oikoumene #3625) in a moment of time.

Luke 4:5

Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene #3625): for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luke 21:26

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (oikoumene #3625) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:14

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world (oikoumene #3625)

Romans 10:15-18

And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world (oikoumene #3625): which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Acts 11:28

And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world (oikoumene #3625) upside down are come hither also;

Acts 17:6

So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world (oikoumene #3625) worshippeth.

Acts 19:27

For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world (oikoumene #3625), and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Acts 24:5

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, (oikoumene #3625) to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 3:10

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world (oikoumene #3625): he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:9

AND FINALLY...​

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world (oikoumene #3625), to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelation 16:14,16

If the writer of Revelation literally meant the whole earth, he would have written kosmos (#2889) instead of oikoumene!

This is a thread I created on that word also:

"OIKOUMENE"(#G3625) In Olivet Discourse and Revelation. Mistranslated?

The mistranslation of #g3625 and the possible impact on interpretations when it comes to Eschatology.

Here are 2 other greek words I feel have been horribly mistranslated in the NT:

GEHENNA/Hell
1067. geena gheh'-en-nah of Hebrew origin (1516 and 2011);
valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell
AGE/forever/world
165. aion ahee-ohn' from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--Compare 5550...............
166. aionios ahee-o'-nee-os from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

And the word that is the focus of this thread: "OIKOUMENE"<3625>

Definition from greek resources:

3625 oikoumene feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by implication, of 1093);
land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:--earth, world.........
STRONGS NT 3625: οἰκουμένη
οἰκουμένη, οἰκουμένης, ἡ (feminine of the present passive participle from οἰκέω (namely, γῆ; cf. Winers Grammar, § 64, 5; Buttmann, § 123, 8));
1. the inhabited earth;
a. in Greek writings often the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians, cf. Passow, ii., p. 415a; (Liddell and Scott, under the word, I.).
b. in the Greek authors who wrote about Roman affairs (like the Latinorbis terrarum) equivalent to the Roman empire: so πᾶσα ἡ οἰκουμένη contextually equivalent to all the subjects of this empire, Luke 2:1.

One interesting fact I found out is, that #3625 is used in only 4 verses of the Gospels:
1 in Matthew and 3 in Luke.

I will post 2 of the verses, both of which are used in the Olivet Disourse using the KJV and NASB, as they appear to be 2 popular Bible versions and also use different greek texts.

Used in only 1 verse of Matthew:

Matthew 24:14

New American Standard Bible
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world<(oikoumenē)<3625> as a testimony to all the nations,
and then the end will come.
King James Bible
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world<(oikoumenē)<3625> for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.

Luke 21:26

New American Standard Bible
men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world/<(oikoumenē)<3625>;
for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
King James Bible
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625>:
for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

 

[YeshuaFan]

It doesn't call them lost, it just calls them "the nations". The 1st resurrection is only for the 144,000.

Its at the time of the Second Coming when all of the OT/NT saints who died in Christ are resurrected, and those alive now translated!

 

[DavidPT]

Found this similarity and thought it was interesting:

Jesus Christ is the foundation and IF we are in Christ, we are in the book of life. Our works are judged by the consuming fire that is God, and if those works survive, we are rewarded for those works. If those works are burned, then we will suffer loss, BUT WE WILL STILL BE SAVED, albeit painfully.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, his workmanship will be evident, because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

Notice those who are thrown into the lake of fire (2nd death) are not put there because of their deeds, good or bad, written in the books (plural). They are thrown in the lake of fire because they are not written in the book of life, they are not in Christ.
Revelation 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So it is not our works, good or bad, that save us, but being in Christ, in the book of life, that saves us.

So when does Jesus reward for those works? And you believe the day that he rewards is different then when he punishes those who are not in the book of life?

What I'm wanting someone to logically explain, the fact there is a rapture at the 2nd coming, and that everyone in attendance at the GWTJ were all physically dead at some point, how these raptured alive somehow end up among the dead at this judgment? And if the last trump precedes this judgment, which means the saved have already put on immortality before the time of this judgment, how do immortals die after they have put on immortality in order to stand in front of God at this judgment? Maybe the book of life is there as a record book, and that God looks for their names in it but can't find them, and not that the book of life is present because the saved are being judged there as well?

I tend to think the sheep and goats judgment takes place when Christ returns, and that is a judgment in regards to professed followers of Christ, thus not the GWTJ that occurs much later. The sheep representing the good servants, the goats representing the evil servants. Look in the end of Matthew 24 for instance. Clearly Christ has professed servants that He sees as good, and professed servants He sees as evil.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

When Revelation was written in the first century. The Kingdom of the world was the Roman Empire.

The Roman Empire became the Roman Catholic Church, of Christ, the Messiah of God, 1800 years ago, by the Ministry of Saint Lawrence.

If you are trying to prove your claim, you need to show evidence for it.

The Catholic Church, to the best of my knowledge, does not believe the Seventh Trumpet has sounded. So, would they not believe it has already sounded, if they have been the reigning system of the world? It is one thing to be reigning, but something else if you do not even know what you are reigning over. That would be one blind and deaf system of rulership.

If the Seventh Trumpet has not sounded, then 'the kingdom of the world has not become the Kingdom of God and Christ'.

Do you believe the Seventh Trumpet has sounded?

Otherwise, you are still left with not knowing who the 'two witnesses' are, which is key to proving the Seventh Trumpet has sounded. Unless you are arguing it is Saint Lawrence, and if you are, based on what evidence?

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

What kind of premill?

This is assuming that I must join some group and believe all which they teach, which I do not do. This sort of thinking is what Paul addressed, when he stated, 'I wish you really did already reign with Christ, because if you did, then I would reign with you'. He addressed that, as believers of the Corinthian Church were divided, some saying they followed Apollos, some saying they followed Paul.

You assume I am saying I follow the Catholic Church, or I follow this group, or that.

But, we all stand before God alone, and we all walk with God, alone.

As John said, 'you do not need a teacher, as the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth'.

But, when you take the attitude that you must belong to this or that group, you reject the principle of belong to God alone.

The Millennium has not happened yet, is what I am saying, and this is simply a side road. You have to leave Babylon, and come with the exiles, to the true Kingdom, as Babylon will soon be destroyed.

That Kingdom is the very Kingdom of God, and it is not these kingdoms man has made, under Satan.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Revelation 11 has not yet happened, but that does not require the thousand years to be future because Revelation 11 does not refer to the thousand years. It refers to the new earth and the eternal reign of God.

As I said in my previous post, we know this because God the father does not take the kingdom until Jesus' reign ends (1 Corinthians 15) and Revelation 11 speaks of God beginning to reign. Furthermore it tells us that this reign of God is everlasting, which is much longer than a thousand years.

Revelation 11 Trumpet blast states 'the kingdom of this world has become the Kingdom of God and Christ', 'Christ must reign until all enemies are defeated, the last enemy being death'. Christ does not reign alone, but 'sits at the right hand of the Father'. While the verse does state the 'kingdom of the world' becomes 'the kingdom of God', it also states that it becomes 'the kingdom of God *and* Christ'.

There is never a point where Christ rules alone, as it states, 'God is shown greater then Christ, as God is the One who puts all of Christ's enemies under his feet'.

And 'Jesus returns at the right hand of the Father'.

If Jesus is already reigning on earth, then you have to be arguing the 'kingdom of the world' is reigned by Christ alone, and not by Christ at the right hand of the Father.

 

[YeshuaFan]

This is assuming that I must join some group and believe all which they teach, which I do not do. This sort of thinking is what Paul addressed, when he stated, 'I wish you really did already reign with Christ, because if you did, then I would reign with you'. He addressed that, as believers of the Corinthian Church were divided, some saying they followed Apollos, some saying they followed Paul.

You assume I am saying I follow the Catholic Church, or I follow this group, or that.

But, we all stand before God alone, and we all walk with God, alone.

As John said, 'you do not need a teacher, as the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth'.

But, when you take the attitude that you must belong to this or that group, you reject the principle of belong to God alone.

The Millennium has not happened yet, is what I am saying, and this is simply a side road. You have to leave Babylon, and come with the exiles, to the true Kingdom, as Babylon will soon be destroyed.

That Kingdom is the very Kingdom of God, and it is not these kingdoms man has made, under Satan.

When the Kingdom of Christ is over this entire Earth, when all manmade kingdom sand religions are put down, and ONLY Jesus is seen as the Lord, than we have entered into messianic Age!