• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

MAGOG - Who and where is it exactly?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Lulav, Jan 15, 2020 at 12:00 AM.

  1. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +6,421
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    From another thread here it was brought up about Magog, didn't want to derail that because there's much to look into.

    We first find it in Genesis in the genealogy found there after the flood.

    1 Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood.

    2 The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras.

    3.The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah.
    4. The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
    5 From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.

    We have Seven sons of Japheth
    1. Gomer
    2. Magog
    3. Madia
    4. Javan
    5. Tubal
    6. Meshech
    7. Tiras

    We are told the sons of Gomer -
    1. Ashkenaz
    2. Riphath
    3. Togarmah

    And Javan -
    1. Elishah
    2. Tarshish
    3. Kittim
    4. Dodanim
    That's seven altogether

    So this can be interpreted two ways:
    From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.

    1. It was from all of Japath's sons

    OR

    2. It was from the sons of Gomer and Javan only. Which I tend to lean towards as it seems to be speaking of the people who live on the edges of the earth. I also tend to lean towards there being one land mass before the flood and soon thereafter it broke up, possibly by all the waters beneath breaking forth and causing the gaps to form. But let's not get off on that trail for now.

    The family tree from NOah is repeated in 1 Chron and is the same so I won't post it here to save space.

    The other place Magog is mentioned is in Ezekiel

    1 And the word of the L-RD came unto me, saying,
    2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
    3 And say, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
    4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
    5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
    6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

    Meshech and Tubal were brothers of Magog, it seems by this (1) verse they lived under Magog?

    Persia is present day Iran (a Persian Synagogue in California was recently vandalized) and the place where Esther lived and saved all the Jews.
    Ethiopia although named in the Bible was the land of 'Cush', the Son of Ham
    Libya - Is 'Put', another son of Ham

    14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord G-D; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? 15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: 16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

    Chapter 39 continues with this:
    6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

    Let's see what Josephus has to say about Magog. I'll continue in the next post.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +6,421
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    "they called the nations by their own names"

    Gomer - Galatians or Galls or Gomerites
    Magog -Magogites - Scythians
    Javan - Ionia - The Greeks
    Madai - Madeans - Medes

    This can be found here in the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus - Chapter 6

    1. Now they were the grandchildren of Noah, in honor of whom names were imposed on the nations by those that first seized upon them. Japhet, the son of Noah, had seven sons: they inhabited so, that, beginning at the mountains Taurus and Amanus, they proceeded along Asia, as far as the river Tansis, and along Europe to Cadiz; and settling themselves on the lands which they light upon, which none had inhabited before, they called the nations by their own names. For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, [Galls,] but were then called Gomerites. Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians. Now as to Javan and Madai, the sons of Japhet; from Madai came the Madeans, who are called Medes, by the Greeks; but from Javan, Ionia, and all the Grecians, are derived. Thobel founded the Thobelites, who are now called Iberes; and the Mosocheni were founded by Mosoch; now they are Cappadocians. There is also a mark of their ancient denomination still to be shown; for there is even now among them a city called Mazaca, which may inform those that are able to understand, that so was the entire nation once called. Thiras also called those whom he ruled over Thirasians; but the Greeks changed the name into Thracians. And so many were the countries that had the children of Japhet for their inhabitants. Of the three sons of Gomer, Aschanax founded the Aschanaxians, who are now called by the Greeks Rheginians. So did Riphath found the Ripheans, now called Paphlagonians; and Thrugramma the Thrugrammeans, who, as the Greeks resolved, were named Phrygians. Of the three sons of Javan also, the son of Japhet, Elisa gave name to the Eliseans, who were his subjects; they are now the Aeolians. Tharsus to the Tharsians, for so was Cilicia of old called; the sign of which is this, that the noblest city they have, and a metropolis also, is Tarsus, the tau being by change put for the theta. Cethimus possessed the island Cethima: it is now called Cyprus; and from that it is that all islands, and the greatest part of the sea-coasts, are named Cethim by the Hebrews: and one city there is in Cyprus that has been able to preserve its denomination; it has been called Citius by those who use the language of the Greeks, and has not, by the use of that dialect, escaped the name of Cethim. And so many nations have the children and grandchildren of Japhet possessed. Now when I have premised somewhat, which perhaps the Greeks do not know, I will return and explain what I have omitted; for such names are pronounced here after the manner of the Greeks, to please my readers; for our own country language does not so pronounce them: but the names in all cases are of one and the same ending; for the name we here pronounce Noeas, is there Noah, and in every case retains the same termination.

    So, according to Josephus, 'Magog' are the Scythians

    And who are the Scythians?

    Let's find out
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020 at 12:20 AM
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  3. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +6,421
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    Who are the Scythians?
    According to wiki

    The Scythians (/ˈsɪθiən, ˈsɪð-/; from Greek Σκύθης, Σκύθοι), also known as
    Scyth
    Saka
    Sakae
    Iskuzai

    Askuzai,

    were a nomadic people who dominated Pontic steppe from about the 7th century BC up until the 3rd century BC.

    [​IMG]

    As you can see by that map it is in the place That is today called Russia as well as Ukraine and Kazakhstan.

    Let's look at Magog in Revelation next
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020 at 12:33 AM
  4. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +6,421
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    Revelation 20

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


    Seems by this that Gog and Magog are the only ones to participate in this final battle.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  5. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +6,421
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    And from the description it seems that during the 1000 years they have taken over all the earth:

    "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog,"
     
  6. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +6,421
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    Let's go back to Genesis for a moment

    "The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras."


    1. Gomer - Sons mentioned -Galatians or Galls originally called Gomerites ----Galatia (/ ɡ ə ˈ l eɪ ʃ ə /; Ancient Greek: Γαλατία, Galatía, "Gaul") was an ancient area in the highlands of central Anatolia, roughly corresponding to the provinces of Ankara, Çorum, and Yozgat, in modern Turkey.
    2. Magog - Magogites or by the Greeks called Scythians - see above for areas
    3. Madia - Medes ------The Medes were an ancient Iranian people
    4. Javan - Sons Mentioned And he is who the Greeks eminate from
    5. Tubal - Thobelites or Tubalites now called Iberes-----------------------------------which could be present day Iberia located between Armenia and Albania but it could include both Italians and Spanish (Iberian Peninsula) located in the southwest corner of Europe. The peninsula is principally divided between Portugal and Spain, comprising most of their territory, as well as Andorra, small areas of France, and the British overseas territory of Gibraltar.
    6. Meshech - or Mosoch founded Mosocheni - Cappadocians - a place in Turkey
    7. Tiras - or Thiras called Thracians --About one-fourth of Thrace lies in Turkey, about one-tenth in Greece, and the remainder in Bulgaria.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  7. dad

    dad Undefeated! Supporter

    +1,214
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    Or possibly Gog is a person, and Magog refers to his dominion. I notice that at the end of the thousand years the AC is cast alive into the lake of fire. Could it be that though the AC is no longer alive on earth (?) the rebels all over the world that come together are considered his nation? So a battle involving these people might be called a battle involving 'Gog, and Magog'? When they lose the (former) leader who is still alive somewhere at this point, is cast into the lake of fire, and the kingdom inspired by him and Satan is also destroyed totally?
     
  8. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +6,421
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    Good thoughts. :)

    I am assuming the AC you are referring to is the Anti-Christ?

    2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete.

    7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


    Here it talks about the Beast and False Prophet already have been thrown in there, so the before and after the 1000 years are only talking about Satan himself which to me is different than the beast of false prophet.


    I think what you are saying about Or possibly Gog is a person, and Magog refers to his dominion could be right, it is ambiguous and even the commentaries don't have a definitive on it. The 'spirit' behind those fighting against God?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  9. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,336
    Messianic
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  10. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member Supporter

    814
    +327
    Canada
    Anglican
    Married
    The identification of Magog with Scythians is doubtful. Josephus could be inaccurate.

    I think a more productive approach is to identify the locations of Meshech and Tubal. Ezekiel seems to describe them perhaps as counties under a state called Magog.
     
  11. A Realist

    A Realist Living in Reality

    +1,114
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Meshech and Tubal were in what is now Turkey.
     
  12. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member Supporter

    814
    +327
    Canada
    Anglican
    Married
    I agree and conclude that Magog is in Turkey, as well.
     
  13. dad

    dad Undefeated! Supporter

    +1,214
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    Yes.


    Ah, forgot about that. The AC and his cohort get chucked in the lake when Jesus comes back. So, going with the scenario I mentioned, even though Satan is not around anymore in the Millennium, nor the AC and False Prophet, their influences still exist. Somewhat like Stalin or Lenin might still influence many people though they are dead. So, even when people reject Jesus and Satan is not around, they find ways to dig up old teachings, and history, and such to establish a wicked kingdom.

    Who knows but that some guy who is real evil (Gog) might not be alive then? Someone influenced or even related to the former AC that takes up the slack and assumes leadership of the rebels!?
    One commentary seems to suggest Gog is a person.

    " 8. Gog and Magog-- (Eze 38:1-39:29; see on Eze 38:2). Magog is a general name for northern nations of Japheth's posterity, whose ideal head is Gog (Ge 10:2). A has but one Greek article to "Gog and Magog," whereby the two, namely, the prince and the people, are marked as having the closest connection. B reads the second article before Magog wrongly. HILLER [Onomasticon] explains both words as signifying "lofty," "elevated." For "quarters" the Greek is "corners." "
    Revelation - Chapter 20 - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary on StudyLight.org


    Under this interpretation then, perhaps Gog is like an AC who lives in the final time of the Millenium. No longer can people blame the devil for how wicked they are! Sin will have run it's course, and all will see that man, all by himself, without the help of Satan, gets deathly wicked when he rejects Jesus. Then God allows Satan to be loosed to help the wicked rebels complete their rebellion. It will be clear to all the universe that they need to be destroyed, and that the only way is Jesus. So God cleans it all up. Then comes the everlasting kingdom on earth!
    The lesson then, from the AC and false prophet and Satan back in the last days before Christ returned may be that man is very wicked when yielding to the devil and his demons and people. The lesson for the Millenium may be that man, when he rejects the Truth, and gives over to sin, is desperately wicked all by himself also!
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020 at 1:19 PM
  14. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member Supporter

    814
    +327
    Canada
    Anglican
    Married
    Or, more likely, Gog is the AC (or his apprentice) who comes before Christ and Armageddon is the same as the war of Gog & Magog.
     
  15. dad

    dad Undefeated! Supporter

    +1,214
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    Then why would the event at the end of the Millenium be called this also?
     
  16. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member Supporter

    814
    +327
    Canada
    Anglican
    Married
    I believe in Realized Millennialism where AC appears at end of the Millennium. I'm not discussing this here as Messianic Jews believe in Dispensationalism.
     
  17. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

    +637
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Oh,
    Such a statement to the readers here what messianic jews believe is a familiar presumptiveness lacking evidence.

    What is revealed in motive of the heart to those whom know The Terrain of Torah is a value to the sons and daughters that trample serpents with The True Vine.

    Though the name magog and gog are found in the lineage of יָֽפֶת(japheth)

    The lineage of shem is apart of The Promise of inheritance the enemy of The kingdom hates fully.

    6 Bible verses about Power Over Snakes
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020 at 6:02 PM
  18. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

    +637
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    To answer your question phrased in the thread title.
    Where.?
    I believe it is a place outside closed gates where the gnawing and gnashing is of no concern of those The Lord has sealed.

    Once a person has received and accepted the mark of the enemy. There is no longer any mercy or forgiveness given.
    A fearful position where the soul and spirit are destined to utter destruction. A place where no memory of their name exist in The Kingdom.

    Readers;
    Consider The Torah with discernment in the spirit.
    The lineage of both havel(abel) and quyin(cain) both named a child lamech.
    And yet there was only a single lamech of the lineage of havel that held dear a promise.
    As for gog magog.
    I imagine they were like clouds with out water..
    Never having an inheritance of earth(land).
    Vain speakers with utmost arrogance similar to korach and his company of strange fire offering cowards.

    But what do I know
     
  19. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +6,421
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    AFAIK Able was killed before he had any children, I think you are thinking of Seth. :)
     
  20. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

    +637
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    True,
    How could I ever think of Seth without Able.
    I imagine seth's children were taught much about havel(Able) by their Grand parents .
    And were fruitful in able's memory.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020 at 11:34 AM
Loading...