Made a decision/A question on remarriage of priests and possible schism with Moscow

[Moses Medina]

Hello all, well, first order of business, yep, through fervent prayer and much exhausting (though frankly I love it) reading, I am finally slowing down on my studies and making a step of faith into Orthodoxy.

Second, last time I researched and halted once I found something that resonated with scripture alone, the book of concord and the limited exposure to the fathers was great but limited. No more, I am doing my due diligence and seeing historically how it favors Orthodoxy or Catholicism. It leams heavily Orthodox for me but wanted to know of deeper resources of how much obedience was actually played into the First Among Equals in ancient time to the Bishop of Rome/Pope.

And third, the consistency and lack of schism is in favor of Orthodoxy, however that is not to say some wont be schismatic and go their way as that has happened. I was reading in another thread how you cant chop a finger off and claim the finger to be infallible, I agree and attribute this to Rome.

However, what was tbe historical stance on marriage in the church with divorcees? Orthodoxy allows remarriage to occur and also allows priests to remarry if they are widowers, how much change is exactly allowable before its too much? If all Patriarchs and their jurisdictions apostisize and only one finger really does remain to be Catholic then how does one know they they are in the right one if all claim Orthodoxy. I know this is hypothetical but it is coming from the development of the quarelling betweem Moscow and Constantinople.

 

[ArmyMatt]

historically, we are never for divorce. although it is allowed in certain pastoral situations. it is always tragic and needs repentance.

we don't allow remarriage of clergy, even for widowers. that is a more modern thing.

if all jurisdictions apostatize, there is no claim to Orthodoxy. it can't be Rome since they already did.

as far as Constantinople and Moscow, sadly speaking this is nothing new.

 

[buzuxi02]

Hello all, well, first order of business, yep, through fervent prayer and much exhausting (though frankly I love it) reading, I am finally slowing down on my studies and making a step of faith into Orthodoxy.

Second, last time I researched and halted once I found something that resonated with scripture alone, the book of concord and the limited exposure to the fathers was great but limited. No more, I am doing my due diligence and seeing historically how it favors Orthodoxy or Catholicism. It leams heavily Orthodox for me but wanted to know of deeper resources of how much obedience was actually played into the First Among Equals in ancient time to the Bishop of Rome/Pope.

And third, the consistency and lack of schism is in favor of Orthodoxy, however that is not to say some wont be schismatic and go their way as that has happened. I was reading in another thread how you cant chop a finger off and claim the finger to be infallible, I agree and attribute this to Rome.

However, what was tbe historical stance on marriage in the church with divorcees? Orthodoxy allows remarriage to occur and also allows priests to remarry if they are widowers, how much change is exactly allowable before its too much? If all Patriarchs and their jurisdictions apostisize and only one finger really does remain to be Catholic then how does one know they they are in the right one if all claim Orthodoxy. I know this is hypothetical but it is coming from the development of the quarelling betweem Moscow and Constantinople.

Remarriage of clergy is a controversial ruling within the Ecumenical Patriarchate which is exactly 1 week old! And has added further fuel to the tension to break communion with him.
The reason why widowed clergy cannot remarry is based on 1 Timothy 3:2- 12 . This has always been interpreted literally by the church thus no second marriages or polygamists allowed.
As far as divorce and remarriage it's far too widespread. Sadly I'm not sure if we can stop the floodgates. In Orthodoxy the reasons for divorce (or more accurately permission for a second marriage while the original spouse is still alive) are adultery, abandonment or abuse. These three are tied together ( Malachi 2:14-16, Ephesians 5:28-30). If the Church determines that reconciliation is impossible it can grant remarriage. The Shepherd of Hermas says not to remarry if you are divorced from your first spouse as it puts an end to any possible reconciliation. This is the reason remarriage after divorce was not allowed it ends the possibility of reconciling with the wife of your youth.
Origen said that in Alexandria (245AD) the bishops did grant second marriages on occasion but was not a practise of antiquity. He goes on to give explanation and even tackles why widowed priests could not remarry.

 

[Moses Medina]

Thank you Buzuxi and of course thank you Father Matt for your responses.

The whole situation with Moscow and Constantinople is a sad one to see as both an inquirer and now one that will be entering as a catechuman waiting to be catechized. Prayers for reconciliation.

As I said I tied up all loose ends and did muly due diligence (mistyped my first post) and Im sure Ill still have questions here and there whether to learn or just out of curiousity but I will be slowing down reading and look forward towards the next step until Crismation. You all have been awesome.

Remarriage of clergy is a controversial ruling within the Ecumenical Patriarchate which is exactly 1 week old! And has added further fuel to the tension to break communion with him.
The reason why widowed clergy cannot remarry is based on 1 Timothy 3:2- 12 . This has always been interpreted literally by the church thus no second marriages or polygamists allowed.
As far as divorce and remarriage it's far too widespread. Sadly I'm not sure if we can stop the floodgates. In Orthodoxy the reasons for divorce (or more accurately permission for a second marriage while the original spouse is still alive) are adultery, abandonment or abuse. These three are tied together ( Malachi 2:14-16, Ephesians 5:28-30). If the Church determines that reconciliation is impossible it can grant remarriage. The Shepherd of Hermas says not to remarry if you are divorced from your first spouse as it puts an end to any possible reconciliation. This is the reason remarriage after divorce was not allowed it ends the possibility of reconciling with the wife of your youth.
Origen said that in Alexandria (245AD) the bishops did grant second marriages on occasion but was not a practise of antiquity. He goes on to give explanation and even tackles why widowed priests could not remarry.

 

[tapi]

There have actually been widowed priest who have been allowed to marry kata ekonomia all over the Orthodox world (also in Russia). These things are just not widely published due to the pastoral nature of the issue. Usually this takes place when a young priest with very young children becomes a widow, as there is no way for him to both care for his children alone and the parish(if he does not have ample support from extended family). Also from the children's point of view it is not good for them to go through childhood without a mother figure (which most naturally is the new wife of the priest if he has become a widow at a young age/ when the children are young).

The same applies, in certain cases (again with pastoral consideration) to priests who have been left by their wifes who have clearly no intention of returning. So the issue is not some new innovation by the EP, but a clarification of an existing practice that always takes place on a case-by-case basis.

 

[prodromos]

The only case I have heard of is when the Bishop considered making a widowed priest a layman so he could remarry, as this particular priest was devastated by the loss of his wife. The priest however chose to remain in the clergy and not remarry.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I know of a priest who was allowed to remarry and his bishop said that was one of the biggest mistakes of his episcopacy.

 

[tapi]

I know of several cases from both Russia and Greece. The default is ,of course, staying celibate or entering into a monastic way of life.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I have actually wondered what on earth would happen if a priest with young children were to be widowed. It would take tremendous support for him to be able to remain a priest and for the children to be cared for. And that still isn't a "mother" though perhaps they can be ok.

I have to say though that the idea of a priest having an interest in persons for marriage reasons is just beyond creepy to consider. The priestly role is just one that I can't really conceive being entangled with "dating" in a healthy way.

 

[buzuxi02]

The standard procedure for a widowed priest that wants to remarry is to simply be laicized (defrocked) and returned to rank of laity. Allowance to remarry is a rarity handful of cases in past 100 years and probably less in the 1900 years before that.
A priest who cannot handle single life should ask to be defrocked.

 

[buzuxi02]

I have actually wondered what on earth would happen if a priest with young children were to be widowed. It would take tremendous support for him to be able to remain a priest and for the children to be cared for. And that still isn't a "mother" though perhaps they can be ok.

I have to say though that the idea of a priest having an interest in persons for marriage reasons is just beyond creepy to consider. The priestly role is just one that I can't really conceive being entangled with "dating" in a healthy way.

You are right. It leads to scandal and other conflicts of interest. Imagine in high school a friend of yours tells you his mom is dating a Greek priest. Ask me how I know. Atleast he immediately asked to be defrocked.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I know of a deacon who decided to ask to be laicized so that he could marry rather than entering the priesthood.

And I have a lot of compassion on a situation I know of where a young man wants to become a priest, but his wife abandoned him. So he is left to choose between giving up the idea of becoming a priest, or giving up the idea of wife and family.

 

[Paidiske]

I know of a priest who was allowed to remarry and his bishop said that was one of the biggest mistakes of his episcopacy.

I'm curious; did he say why?

I have to say though that the idea of a priest having an interest in persons for marriage reasons is just beyond creepy to consider. The priestly role is just one that I can't really conceive being entangled with "dating" in a healthy way.

The boundary we have is that you can never court/date anyone with whom you have a pastoral relationship. This does make it difficult sometimes, though, especially if it's important to you to marry within your denomination. I'm very grateful that I was married and had that sorted before I offered for ordination.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm curious; did he say why?

not that I heard

 

[truefiction1]

I have actually wondered what on earth would happen if a priest with young children were to be widowed. It would take tremendous support for him to be able to remain a priest and for the children to be cared for. And that still isn't a "mother" though perhaps they can be ok.

I have to say though that the idea of a priest having an interest in persons for marriage reasons is just beyond creepy to consider. The priestly role is just one that I can't really conceive being entangled with "dating" in a healthy way.

A priest of our parish back in Crossingville, PA, many, many years ago, was widowed early. His parents did a great deal to help with rearing his two boys while he served as priest.