MacArthur and his team at it again

[FerventDisciple]

A series of articles to "commemorate" the one year anniversary of the Strange Fire Conference.

Strange Fire Redux, Part 1

Strange Fire Redux, Part 2

Strange Fire Redux, Part 3

The Elephant in the Strange Fire

They keep asking to see the "biblical" gospel preached yet when shown like with the mourning over sin at the Brownsville revival and others they are not satisfied. I'm starting to think they won't accept the "biblical" gospel has been preached unless they hear their brand of hardcore Calvinism preached (evidenced by the fact they're not throwing the same kind of vitriol at the Charismatic Calvinists) . A theology that I would consider borderline heresy when it comes to the character of God and a gross example of forcing your theology into the text rather than sound exegesis.

This continued rhetoric is really pathetic now. Why not just produce the verses that show the gifts have ceased? Many on the Charismatic side have demonstrated sound biblical exegesis that show continuationism yet they are not producing anything from scripture that shows the cessation of the gifts so they are reduced to this continued rhetoric and the tradition of their theological background. They claim to exalt scripture yet they won't get into a scriptural debate exegeting texts because cessationism has no leg to stand on biblically.

 

[hislegacy]

I mean no offense, but why are you advertising for him? Links and all.

 

[murjahel]

A series of articles to "commemorate" the one year anniversary of the Strange Fire Conference.

Strange Fire Redux, Part 1

Strange Fire Redux, Part 2

Strange Fire Redux, Part 3

The Elephant in the Strange Fire

They keep asking to see the "biblical" gospel preached yet when shown like with the mourning over sin at the Brownsville revival and others they are not satisfied. I'm starting to think they won't accept the "biblical" gospel has been preached unless they hear their brand of hardcore Calvinism preached (evidenced by the fact they're not throwing the same kind of vitriol at the Charismatic Calvinists) . A theology that I would consider borderline heresy when it comes to the character of God and a gross example of forcing your theology into the text rather than sound exegesis.

This continued rhetoric is really pathetic now. Why not just produce the verses that show the gifts have ceased? Many on the Charismatic side have demonstrated sound biblical exegesis that show continuationism yet they are not producing anything from scripture that shows the cessation of the gifts so they are reduced to this continued rhetoric and the tradition of their theological background. They claim to exalt scripture yet they won't get into a scriptural debate exegeting texts because cessationism has no leg to stand on biblically.

Thank you for posting this, it does keep us informed of what is being thought, what is being said. Of course, none of us here are cessationists, or we would not be here, but as he said, his 'strange fire conference' dealt with far more than cessationism.

The Bible says to examine ourselves, and we all need to do that, to be sure we are Biblical, and honest in our ministries. Seeing what others see, can help... and helps us check out that each of us are as Pentecostal, Biblical, and sanctified as we claim to be.

If we are as Biblical as we claim, still some will find fault with us... our Lord is our true Judge, and He sees things very clearly... as long as we please Him, we need not worry about those who see us incorrectly. If we have errors, and the Holy Spirit even can't convince us of such, we will not likely hear what outsiders to Pentecost say either. Yet, if we want to represent our Lord and have a powerful continuist ministry, we need to often examine ourselves. I was curious to what JM is saying now about us.

 

[Messy]

They keep asking to see the "biblical" gospel preached yet when shown like with the mourning over sin at the Brownsville revival and others they are not satisfied. I'm starting to think they won't accept the "biblical" gospel has been preached unless they hear their brand of hardcore Calvinism preached (evidenced by the fact they're not throwing the same kind of vitriol at the Charismatic Calvinists) . A theology that I would consider borderline heresy when it comes to the character of God and a gross example of forcing your theology into the text rather than sound exegesis.

That's just what Calvin did too.
John Calvin on Miracles
In demanding miracles from us, they act dishonestly; for we have not coined some new gospel, but retain the very one the truth of which is confirmed by all the miracles which Christ and the apostles ever wrought. But they have a peculiarity which we have not - they can confirm their faith by constant miracles down to the present day! Nay rather, they allege miracles which might produce wavering in minds otherwise well disposed; they are so frivolous and ridiculous, so vain and false. ...

I can't even read it. Michael Brown did so much effort, wrote a book, had debates, but he doesn't listen, because he went to Benny Hinn.
Ask Dr. Brown

 

[murjahel]

Miracles have certainly not ceased. I have seen, and even experienced, many. These are not the 'pretend' or slight of hand miracles either. So, if one is not seeing miracles, they are not looking very hard... Our Lord promised that 'signs and wonders' would 'follow' the preaching of the Word. If any of us preach the Word, there will be REAL miracles, signs, wonders... The pretend ones have shamed many ministries, for there is no reason one needs to have pretend miracles.

 

[Biblicist]

I'm pretty sure that I first heard about the original conference on this forum and having checked out a few of the provided links it seems that they still seem to be in their ignorance.

"If the charismatic movement were truly as vibrant and Spirit-filled as charismatic apologists claim, John MacArthur would never have needed to host the Strange Fire conference or write the book. The issues he and the other speakers raised at Strange Fire should have been dealt with decades ago by charismatics who were faithful to the biblical gospel and recognized the need to address the many perversions that were gaining traction".link​

When I saw this comment I could agree with some of its sentiments but having someone such as MacArthur trying to "assist" with a well needed cleanup would be similar to having the head of our national banks trying to implement policies to clean up the financial sector.

In this day and age I do find it a bit strange that the old humanist dinosaur of cessationism is still around as I would have thought that even the less spiritually cogniscant cessationist would have realised that the cessationist worldview is nothing less than a system of unbelief that has no foundations within Christian theology.

 

[FerventDisciple]

I mean no offense, but why are you advertising for him? Links and all.

I doubt he's gonna win any new fans from all the people in this forum who view it.

 

[Andrea411]

It is so easy for cessationist to prove their theology. Anyone can prove nothing. If someone preaches that nothing happens and that occurs...well they were right.

It takes a lot more faith to preach that God is the same yesterday, today and forever and to stand in faith believing for a miracle. I've seen them, prayed them and know them... they don't always look like what these people want. My daughter has prayed over people who had cancer and then went to the doctors and did not. Do doctors say it was a miracle? No they probably call it a mis-diagnoses.

I had a doctor years ago who had a patient who saw Jesus in a fire... he took a picture and that picture hangs in the municipal bldg of Deptford NJ. Dr.Schimdt told me, he hmself was not a believer but all he knew was that the guy was his patient and he had a stroke and was partially paralyzed on one side.... and after the fire - he was not.

I prayed for a guy with frozen shoulder syndrome a few months ago. He had suffered for years. He was healed totally.

I've also prayed for people who were not healed but they were all believers and in the end, they got the best healing of all.
Miracles are instantaneous, healing often take time and both serve a larger purpose. I call miracles God's presents and healing God's paychecks... bc they usually come after much faith and standing on the word. Miracles just happen and they glorify God. Not once, has my faith been hurt bc someone did not get their miracle. Bc I know the Lord answers all prayer... sometimes the answer is "no".

I don't know what JM is trying to prove?? millions coming to the Lord across the globe. Most are charismatic.... thats a miracle. But JM would have the audacity to say they serve another god....

too sad...

 

[FerventDisciple]

Miracles have certainly not ceased. I have seen, and even experienced, many. These are not the 'pretend' or slight of hand miracles either. So, if one is not seeing miracles, they are not looking very hard... Our Lord promised that 'signs and wonders' would 'follow' the preaching of the Word. If any of us preach the Word, there will be REAL miracles, signs, wonders... The pretend ones have shamed many ministries, for there is no reason one needs to have pretend miracles.

I've heard this is the best scholarly book that has documented evidence of miracles:

http://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Credibility-Testament-Accounts-Volume/dp/0801039525

I know it's two volumes, but i wish it was a bit cheaper.

Cessationists would find this extremely offensive but this is how I see it:

Atheism > Deism > Cessationism

The scepticism in all 3 is the same.

 

[Andrea411]

I've heard this is the best scholarly book that has documented evidence of miracles:

Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts (2 Volume Set): Craig S. Keener: 9780801039522: Amazon.com: Books

I know it's two volumes, but i wish it was a bit cheaper.

Cessationists would find this extremely offensive but this is how I see it:

Atheism > Deism > Cessationism

The scepticism in all 3 is the same.

Someplace in that formula should be Calvinism ?? It just seems to follow the cessationists

 

[Biblicist]

I've heard this is the best scholarly book that has documented evidence of miracles:

Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts (2 Volume Set): Craig S. Keener: 9780801039522: Amazon.com: Books

I know it's two volumes, but i wish it was a bit cheaper.

Cessationists would find this extremely offensive but this is how I see it:

Atheism > Deism > Cessationism

The scepticism in all 3 is the same.

Take heart . . . wait till you see his work on Acts, it has four volumes with something like 4500 pages. I have the first two volumes and I am budgeting for the remaining two; his publishers must tremble when they see him coming.

 

[Biblicist]

Someplace in that formula should be Calvinism ?? It just seems to follow the cessationists

I agree wholeheartedly with this which is why I am a bit bewildered with John Piper who is both a charismatic and a hyper-Calvinist; he holds to the unpalatable view that God not only purposes/chooses some to eternal life but also to eternal damnation; this is something that revolts the average Calvinist.

 

[Andrea411]

I agree wholeheartedly with this which is why I am a bit bewildered with John Piper who is both a charismatic and a hyper-Calvinist; he holds to the unpalatable view that God not only purposes/chooses some to eternal life but also to eternal damnation; this is something that revolts the average Calvinist.

I know. Yet I find Piper inspiring... I think bc he holds to the hedonistic Christian view. Which sounds very carnal but it is more about experiencing the Lord's presence and His glory than about hedonism as we know it.

If I listen to Paul Washer or even Francis Chan (whom I really like). I am often left... gloomy. Piper just seems to know the Lord, personally... so I have to suppose its not our theology that effects us as much as it is the why we choose that particular theology. Since the arguments for and against have all been done, it is a choice. So many people who choose predestination seem to just be like "oh well" off they go to hell... its God's choice and I have no problem with it... and way too many actually smile when they say it ???
I think the doctrine is straight from hell.

Truthfully, I have found MacArthur edifying also . Except that after S/fire and his remarks that charismatics serve another god... just too offensive and too mean to hear anything he has to say. I'd rather be a charismatic Christian who sometimes acted out or up than to be an uptight non-believer...which is how I view these type of cessationists. They don't really have enough faith to believe for a miracle so its easier to exclude those who are willing to believe.

Its so easy to preach nothing will happen and nothing happens... so theres their proof ???

and of course, the pride thingy... when we rely so much on our own understanding and fear so much that someone will laugh at us... that we WON'T !! allow the Holy Spirit to move. I know I used to pray Lord please I do not want to prophesy (phobic of public speaking)... but when I set myself aside and said, Lord You decide. I have given my testimony a number of times in public... its nothing but pride... I don't know any of us that don't suffer from it. I just won't make excuses for it any longer....

Any more I am reading more intellectual theologians, McNight, NT Wright, Fee.. the Lord is preparing me. Funny bc although I love to read theology, I don't think its particularly important to our salvation. I tell people. Pick a creed - stick with one of the big three and you'll be fine.
Your almost better off to stay ignorant of the complexities of theology than to venture out into it... since I've been told way too many times that my salvation was in question bc I wasn't a Calvinist or whatever flavor of the bible some one chose.

As a new Christinan, the Lord spoke to me... really... I was pleading with Him to tell me what church to go to... and of course that meant what to believe... I'm brushing my teeth and like something out of comic book with the caption on your shoulder.... I hear a voice over riding mine. "Why do you worry about how men dress me and not what it is that I desire"

I knew then that what I was really asking was to be RIGHT!! I wanted to be correct bc I don't like being wrong. Not bc I wanted what the Lord wanted. Completely reframed my walk .... although, it wasn't an easy walk. I remember, every time the Lord has spoken, it was to correct my direction. A wonderful rebuke from the Lord, just wonderful. amazing, it still makes me grin from ear to ear.... I was so wrong and He is so gracious...

God bless, andrea

(sorry to rant... kind of got away from me)

 

[Biblicist]

Any more I am reading more intellectual theologians, McNight, NT Wright, Fee.. the Lord is preparing me. Funny bc although I love to read theology, I don't think its particularly important to our salvation. I tell people. Pick a creed - stick with one of the big three and you'll be fine.
Your almost better off to stay ignorant of the complexities of theology than to venture out into it... since I've been told way too many times that my salvation was in question bc I wasn't a Calvinist or whatever flavor of the bible some one chose.

As much as I highly value theology and more particularly with that of systematic theology, I can understand that there could at times be some wisdom with most people taking things a bit easy when it comes to applied theology. If I am correct in that Eph 4 is saying that we all fit somewhere into the five ministry categories, then maybe only about 1/5th of us are inclined to be teachers so I suspect that most of us are not really required to sit amongst a pile of theological books on a regular basis.

As my two primary interests are with Full Gospel Pneumatology and its associated field of Ecclesiology, if I were to find myself fellowshipping in a typical AOG congregation then I suspect that I would have to maintain a low key as I tend to view much of the AOG’s classic-Pentecostal theology as being somewhat pedestrian and dated – or more that it is all too often nothing less than counter productive.

When it comes to the core aspects of the Full Gospel, for those who are able to obtain material by scholars such as Fee, Grudem, Keener, Thiselton, Winters and Witherington to name only a few, then a lot of the odd things that occur within Pentecost can begin to make a bit more sense.

But yes, there are certainly those times where it can be prudent to keep a low profile and quietly scan our bookstores for some good material and I can't wait for Fee's revised book on 1st Corinthians.

With regard to N.T. Wright, a couple of weeks ago I came across a superb Youtube video with the provocative title, "How Paul invented Christian Theology" - definitely worth looking at for those who are interested in Paul as the theologian.

 

[FerventDisciple]

Someplace in that formula should be Calvinism ?? It just seems to follow the cessationists

Calvinism could happily sit with categories such as Gnosticism, Fatalism, Determinism, burning people at the stake who you disagree with, Augustinian Roman Catholicism...

 

[Biblicist]

Calvinism could happily sit with categories such as Gnosticism, Fatalism, Determinism, burning people at the stake who you disagree with, Augustinian Roman Catholicism...

But as the small local Calvinist/fundamentalist church down the road from me proudly says on their billboard, umm, "We speak the truth in an attitude of love".

 

[FerventDisciple]

Take heart . . . wait till you see his work on Acts, it has four volumes with something like 4500 pages. I have the first two volumes and I am budgeting for the remaining two; his publishers must tremble when they see him coming.

I saw the preview of the first volume and the bibliography looks to be longer than some books!

As much as I highly value theology and more particularly with that of systematic theology, I can understand that there could at times be some wisdom with most people taking things a bit easy when it comes to applied theology. If I am correct in that Eph 4 is saying that we all fit somewhere into the five ministry categories, then maybe only about 1/5th of us are inclined to be teachers so I suspect that most of us are not really required to sit amongst a pile of theological books on a regular basis.

As my two primary interests are with Full Gospel Pneumatology and its associated field of Ecclesiology, if I were to find myself fellowshipping in a typical AOG congregation then I suspect that I would have to maintain a low key as I tend to view much of the AOG’s classic-Pentecostal theology as being somewhat pedestrian and dated – or more that it is all too often nothing less than counter productive.

When it comes to the core aspects of the Full Gospel, for those who are able to obtain material by scholars such as Fee, Grudem, Keener, Thiselton, Winters and Witherington to name only a few, then a lot of the odd things that occur within Pentecost can begin to make a bit more sense.

But yes, there are certainly those times where it can be prudent to keep a low profile and quietly scan our bookstores for some good material and I can't wait for Fee's revised book on 1st Corinthians.

With regard to N.T. Wright, a couple of weeks ago I came across a superb Youtube video with the provocative title, "How Paul invented Christian Theology" - definitely worth looking at for those who are interested in Paul as the theologian.

Strange that Fee is ordained by the AOG when he holds so many contrary views to their statement of faith.

 

[Biblicist]

I saw the preview of the first volume and the bibliography looks to be longer than some books!

I remember opening up his first book at a Christian bookstore and while I was thumbing threw it I was stunned to see that the first 600 plus pages were the introduction, that's when I twigged that it was going to be a monumental four volume work - it's an amazing effort on Keener's part.

Strange that Fee is ordained by the AOG when he holds so many contrary views to their statement of faith.

As Fee was probably the first recognised Pentecostal scholar I suspect that he was simply too big a fish to take on. From what I can tell it seems that he has always taught theology in non-AOG institutions; I could not imagine an AOG accredited university being prepared to place him on their faculty.

In more recent times it seems that there are very few classic-Pentecostal (AOG) theologians who are all that keen to support the position of subsequence which is Fee's main sticking point with the classic-Pentecostal position of the AOG. I will be looking forward to his new book on 1st Corinthians but from my quick browse through Google Books it appears that his views run fairly much along contemporary AOG lines, though most would reject his view that the Scriptures do not support the notion that tongues + interpretation = prophecy.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Strange that Fee is ordained by the AOG when he holds so many contrary views to their statement of faith.

I was kicked out of the AoG ministry because I disagreed with their statement of faith concerning the rapture and tongues. I guess it depends on how famous you are... I would hope a Spirit led organization would be fair, but perhaps thats asking too much

 

[jiminpa]

I don't know what JM is trying to prove??

He's not trying to prove anything. He's succeeding in selling books, CDs, DVDs, conventions seats, and tribute. He's a thief, and he knows, like his father, that his time is short.