M Scott Peck

dms1972

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Hi,

Just want to ask people what they think of the writtings of M. Scott Peck, as a guide to spiritual growth for a christian. Scott Peck is best known for his book The Road Less Travelled. But he wrote seven or eight more. He was a psychiatrist, and when he wrote his second book, The People of the Lie, he announced he had become a christian and been baptised. The second book took the issue of human evil seriously, and I have found it a very interesting read, it details a host of case studies of clients of his that he came to feel may be evil, or close to becoming evil. After that he wrote several other books, some on community. I have three of his books, the first two, and a follow up called Further Along the Road Less Travelled.

I am sorry to say i have not found the sort of help or understanding I am seeking when I have talked to the Pastors at churches i have been to, or christian counsellors, thats not to say there are no good ones, but it leaves me with the only other option at times of seeking help from psycho-therapy, and at times I think they are superior in their understanding of the soul, though they often are not christians. As I have also read some of the critiques of secular psychology, I feel left in a quandry. Pastors address matters from a christian point of view but will often admit they don't have a depth understanding of the soul. Other pastors are dead against psychology, and think the Bible is sufficient.

I have had to try and think all this through myself - probably something some Pastors haven't even made any attempt to do.

Back to Scott Peck

I think books like this do affect one's hermenutic, one's way of understanding the world.

I have a lot of respect for Scott Peck, his writings are genuine and I don't think he is anything like some of the charlatans in the self-help movement.

Theres just a few things in what he says, were he would diverge from traditional christian understandings. One is were he talks about the Garden of Eden: he writes

"the story of the Garden of Eden is of course a myth, but like other myths it is an embodiment of truth, and among the many truthful things the myth of the Garden of Eden tells us is how we human beings evolved into consciousness. When we ate the apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, we became conscious, and having become conscious, we became self-conscious."

I have a few questions about that, but to begin with what does it mean for something to be a myth, and what does it mean for something to be historical? I am inclined to think at this moment that history in the Bible begins at certain point later than the early chapters of Genesis, but that that doesn't mean the events in Genesis never took place as described, or that they were not space-time events. So to what should we ascribe the term historical, and can we say of events, people etc. they are non-historical without meaning they never took place, or existed?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Have never been drawn to Scot Peck myself...

I also note that Christian persons in the Psychiatric Profession in our country abandon the dicipline when they see Spiritual issues not being dealt with.

There is also much disquiet about abusive methods like ECT being sanctioned.
 
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Jamesone5

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Hi,

Just want to ask people what they think of the writtings of M. Scott Peck, as a guide to spiritual growth for a christian. Scott Peck is best known for his book The Road Less Travelled. But he wrote seven or eight more. He was a psychiatrist, and when he wrote his second book, The People of the Lie, he announced he had become a christian and been baptised. The second book took the issue of human evil seriously, and I have found it a very interesting read, it details a host of case studies of clients of his that he came to feel may be evil, or close to becoming evil. After that he wrote several other books, some on community. I have three of his books, the first two, and a follow up called Further Along the Road Less Travelled.

I am sorry to say i have not found the sort of help or understanding I am seeking when I have talked to the Pastors at churches i have been to, or christian counsellors, thats not to say there are no good ones, but it leaves me with the only other option at times of seeking help from psycho-therapy, and at times I think they are superior in their understanding of the soul, though they often are not christians. As I have also read some of the critiques of secular psychology, I feel left in a quandry. Pastors address matters from a christian point of view but will often admit they don't have a depth understanding of the soul. Other pastors are dead against psychology, and think the Bible is sufficient.

I have had to try and think all this through myself - probably something some Pastors haven't even made any attempt to do.

Back to Scott Peck

I think books like this do affect one's hermenutic, one's way of understanding the world.

I have a lot of respect for Scott Peck, his writings are genuine and I don't think he is anything like some of the charlatans in the self-help movement.

Theres just a few things in what he says, were he would diverge from traditional christian understandings. One is were he talks about the Garden of Eden: he writes

"the story of the Garden of Eden is of course a myth, but like other myths it is an embodiment of truth, and among the many truthful things the myth of the Garden of Eden tells us is how we human beings evolved into consciousness. When we ate the apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, we became conscious, and having become conscious, we became self-conscious."

I havea few questions about that, but to begin with what does it mean for something to be a myth, and for something to be historical? I am inclined to think at this moment that history in the Bible begins at certain point later than Genesis, but that that doesn't mean the events in Genesis never took place as described, or that they were not space-time events. SO to what should we ascribe the term historical, and can we say of events, people they are non-historical without meaning they never took place?

Yes, early on in my Christian walk, I read probably all of M.Scott Peck's books and as I remember they probably helped, rather than hindered my growth.

As to the bit about things like that Account in Genesis being a myth----you have to ask yourself: "is it based on truth"? You will hopefully find like me that it really does not matter, as it should be truth you are ultimately seeking---- not the historical proof of it all.

Anyway, it shows that you are trying to figure out some things and maybe the more you read books like these, hopefully the Bible will then make more sense.
 
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dms1972

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Have never been drawn to Scot Peck myself...

I also note that Christian persons in the Psychiatric Profession in our country abandon the dicipline when they see Spiritual issues not being dealt with.

There is also much disquiet about abusive methods like ECT being sanctioned.

ECT as I understand it is only used as a last resort, in very severe cases of depression. Its never been offered to me and i have suffered from depression for over 20 years. It may have been used too much in the past, but I do not think that is the case now.
 
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I'm a strong fan of psychiatrist Dr Peck. I read all his books many years ago and they ignited Christian love in me. You cannot compare such a tremendous intellectual and spiritual parson with most church and TV pastors who are unashamed to devalue the intellect.

But one must remember that Peck is not like your average psychologist or therapist. It seems that a lot of them are into New Age and homosexuality.
 
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dms1972

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I agree that Dr. Peck was a very gifted psychotherapist. When he is talking on those lines he's very good.

I suppose that paragraph in his book Further Along the Road... just raised again a perrenial question in my mind about how to understand the book of Genesis, and about myth and history in the Bible. (see my last paragraph in my OP)
 
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Carl Emerson

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ECT as I understand it is only used as a last resort, in very severe cases of depression. Its never been offered to me and i have suffered from depression for over 20 years. It may have been used too much in the past, but I do not think that is the case now.

I must have been a 'last resort' and I wasn't depressed. It was not 'offerred' it was forced.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Hi,

Just want to ask people what they think of the writtings of M. Scott Peck, as a guide to spiritual growth for a christian. Scott Peck is best known for his book The Road Less Travelled. But he wrote seven or eight more. He was a psychiatrist, and when he wrote his second book, The People of the Lie, he announced he had become a christian and been baptised. The second book took the issue of human evil seriously, and I have found it a very interesting read, it details a host of case studies of clients of his that he came to feel may be evil, or close to becoming evil. After that he wrote several other books, some on community. I have three of his books, the first two, and a follow up called Further Along the Road Less Travelled.

I am sorry to say i have not found the sort of help or understanding I am seeking when I have talked to the Pastors at churches i have been to, or christian counsellors, thats not to say there are no good ones, but it leaves me with the only other option at times of seeking help from psycho-therapy, and at times I think they are superior in their understanding of the soul, though they often are not christians. As I have also read some of the critiques of secular psychology, I feel left in a quandry. Pastors address matters from a christian point of view but will often admit they don't have a depth understanding of the soul. Other pastors are dead against psychology, and think the Bible is sufficient.

I have had to try and think all this through myself - probably something some Pastors haven't even made any attempt to do.

Back to Scott Peck

I think books like this do affect one's hermenutic, one's way of understanding the world.

I have a lot of respect for Scott Peck, his writings are genuine and I don't think he is anything like some of the charlatans in the self-help movement.

Theres just a few things in what he says, were he would diverge from traditional christian understandings. One is were he talks about the Garden of Eden: he writes

"the story of the Garden of Eden is of course a myth, but like other myths it is an embodiment of truth, and among the many truthful things the myth of the Garden of Eden tells us is how we human beings evolved into consciousness. When we ate the apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, we became conscious, and having become conscious, we became self-conscious."

I have a few questions about that, but to begin with what does it mean for something to be a myth, and what does it mean for something to be historical? I am inclined to think at this moment that history in the Bible begins at certain point later than the early chapters of Genesis, but that that doesn't mean the events in Genesis never took place as described, or that they were not space-time events. So to what should we ascribe the term historical, and can we say of events, people etc. they are non-historical without meaning they never took place, or existed?
If the account of Adam and Eve is a myth, there is no real explanation of the problem of good and evil. I have sympathy for people with mental issues. I've suffered depression, been alcohol addicted and suicidal. We are presently helping someone who is bipolar. Psychology is excellent at diagnosing issues. it is not nearly so good at solving them.

Historical means that an event happened at some time. We do not know the dates or the time scale of the Genesis week. Was a day 24 hours then? Who knows for sure. How long was Adam alone before Eve was formed? We do not know. Just because we do not know these details does not mean they did not happen.

Myths are often human imaginations to explain something that there is no other way to explain. So Australian aborigines have their dreamtime myths. There is no possible basis in fact for their myths. Other myths have a seed of fact. Virtually every ancient culture has a reference to a world wide flood, in many ways matching the account in Genesis.

What does all this mean for a suffering Christian? Charles Spurgeon suffered severe depression at times. Someone said, tongue in cheek, that King David would have been diagnosed as bipolar today. Unless there are underlying physiological causes, most issues to do with the soul can be remedied because the underlying problems are usually spiritual. Get that right and the soul will follow. Lord Jesus said that the truth will set us free. It surely does. That is why it is so important to experience the renewal of the mind. However, the mind can only be renewed by spiritual truth.

God's truth is absolute. Stand on that ground and you are well on the way to recovery already.
 
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Darkhorse

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I must have been a 'last resort' and I wasn't depressed. It was not 'offerred' it was forced.

My dad also had (forced) ECT in the 1940s while committed in a mental hospital.
He had been diagnosed as manic-depressive, and the ECT affected his memory.

Hopefully, there is considerably more care and restraint in its use now...


I have read People of the Lie and consider it to be one of the best books I've ever seen (which is saying a lot). I first heard about it in a sermon by a Methodist preacher. It's the most useful discussion about evil that I've encountered. I hand out copies in person whenever someone's interested.
 
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I suppose that paragraph in his book Further Along the Road... just raised again a perrenial question in my mind about how to understand the book of Genesis, and about myth and history in the Bible. (see my last paragraph in my OP)
The word myth is commonly used to mean "a widely held but false belief or idea." I'm sure this is _not_ the meaning that Peck intends. I actually remember him stating that he intended the other definition, "a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events." Peck said that myths are "the embodiment of truths."

So, there is no contradiction between the story of Adam being a myth and its being actual history. Having explained the definition, I find the problem in this most profound story in explaining the words of God. What did He mean by saying, "The day you eat from this tree you will die." And when He said, "The human beings have eaten of the tree of knowledge and became like us."

Scott Peck proposed that "When we ate the apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, we became conscious, and having become conscious, we became self-conscious." Other theological thinkers gave other explanations. Whether I agree with Peck or not on this issue, I have to give him high marks for being interested in the subject and trying to come up with a plausible explanation.
 
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dms1972

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I honestly think I am damaged somewhat from seeing secular psychologists in the past, sometimes I was reluctant to seek help within the church. One of the christian counsellors I went to would keep pushing the issue of surrender of my will. I kept thinking there is no point in me just saying some words if I am not really meaning them. I have thought I had surrendered to God in the past, commited myself to His Love. Is this surrender of the will - a once for all thing, or something needing to be repeated over and over?
 
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anna ~ grace

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I honestly think I am suffering somewhat from seeing secular psychologists in the past, sometimes I was reluctant to seek help within the church. One of the christian counsellors I went to would keep pushing the issue of surrender of my will. I kept thinking there is no point in me just saying some words if I am not really meaning them. I have thought I had surrendered to God in the past, commited myself to His Love. Is this surrender of the will - a once for all thing, or something needing to be repeated over and over?
I believe it is something we must do continually. Because, realistically, our minds, our thoughts, our souls, are kind of all over the place, or at least have the potential to be all over the place, distracted, mislead, discouraged, or weighed down. So, surrender, in my experience, must keep happening.
 
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dms1972

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The word myth is commonly used to mean "a widely held but false belief or idea." I'm sure this is _not_ the meaning that Peck intends. I actually remember him stating that he intended the other definition, "a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events." Peck said that myths are "the embodiment of truths."

So, there is no contradiction between the story of Adam being a myth and its being actual history. Having explained the definition, I find the problem in this most profound story in explaining the words of God. What did He mean by saying, "The day you eat from this tree you will die." And when He said, "The human beings have eaten of the tree of knowledge and became like us."

Scott Peck proposed that "When we ate the apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, we became conscious, and having become conscious, we became self-conscious." Other theological thinkers gave other explanations. Whether I agree with Peck or not on this issue, I have to give him high marks for being interested in the subject and trying to come up with a plausible explanation.

Thanks for your helpful comments:

Can I ask also do we each repeat the fall in our own lives, or are we born fallen?
 
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dms1972

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I believe it is something we must do continually. Because, realistically, our minds, our thoughts, our souls, are kind of all over the place, or at least have the potential to be all over the place, distracted, mislead, discouraged, or weighed down. So, surrender, in my experience, must keep happening.

Can our will be fractured?
 
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Can I ask also do we each repeat the fall in our own lives, or are we born fallen?
This is a fantastic question. I'll try to answer without complicating issues. I'll be using my own terminology but the concepts are developed in multiple sources by Jews, Greek Orthodox, Freud, and other psychologists.

We are born with a selfish inclination, remember Scott Peck's self-consciousness? This is necessary for the self-preservation of every infant but it doesn't care about the well-being of others. Around the age of 2, we _start_ to develop our will, which is like the reigns of a horse, that stop us for infringing on others. And later still, perhaps between age 5-7 we _start_ to absorb societal and religious norms, developing a social conscience.

A healthy, unfractured, will can regulate the activity of the selfish inclination. To obtain this, our spirit which otherwise remains dormant, must be reborn from above by the Holy Spirit.

What do you think of this? Is it something that makes sense to you? What do you believe constitutes the human person? Is this something you discussed with your therapists; Christians or non-Christians?
 
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There is also much disquiet about abusive methods like ECT being sanctioned.
Psychologists, like Peck, don't use ECT ... only counseling.

Psychiatrists, unlike Peck, will utilize drugs and other physical therapies like ECT.
 
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Andrewn

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Psychologists, like Peck, don't use ECT ... only counseling. Psychiatrists, unlike Peck, will utilize drugs and other physical therapies like ECT.
I agree with you that this is the case now. But Peck is a psychiatrist and he used psychotherapy.

Psychiatrists in the past used psychotherapy bec psychotropic drugs available at their time were not very effective and had strong side effects.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Psychologists, like Peck, don't use ECT ... only counseling.

Psychiatrists, unlike Peck, will utilize drugs and other physical therapies like ECT.

Someone said "Dr. Peck was a very gifted psychotherapist...

Another said "I'm a strong fan of psychiatrist Dr Peck.

What is the truth.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I honestly think I am damaged somewhat from seeing secular psychologists in the past, sometimes I was reluctant to seek help within the church. One of the christian counsellors I went to would keep pushing the issue of surrender of my will. I kept thinking there is no point in me just saying some words if I am not really meaning them. I have thought I had surrendered to God in the past, commited myself to His Love. Is this surrender of the will - a once for all thing, or something needing to be repeated over and over?

Paul said "I die daily..."
 
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