(M.H-35)"Standard" Argument for Irreducible Complexity

[Dannager]

He didn't say we were most numerous, but he did say we were on top i.e. most complex and obviously most capable as far as capablilities

You're reading into what he is saying more than he intended. Steven J. Gould knows that bacteria completely dominate the biological scene in terms of biological success. Yeah, sure, we're intellectually superior because we've got larger brains and are self-aware and all those nice things, but we still can't out-produce many other forms of life.

Evolution only deals with biological success.

 

[I_Love_Cheese]

Nope, it defines someone who can't believe people wouldn't believe we are the most intelligent creatures on earth

Kind of like someone doubting the sun rises in the east and sets in the west

Kinda like, in science you have to define a metric, and the use of an irrelevant metric does not support an argument.

Example, which is more complex Linux or XP? how about Excel and Word? What is the ultimate sort algorithm? Is it always the fastest?

 

[Edx]

He didn't say we were most numerous, but he did say we were on top i.e. most complex and obviously most capable as far as capablilities

So even though he said for over 3 billion years this planet has remained a bacterial planet, and that bacteria rule the earth... you still think he meant that humans were at the top?

 

[pittguy579]

So even though he said for over 3 billion years this planet has remained a bacterial planet, and that bacteria rule the earth... you still think he meant that humans were at the top?

Yes that is what he said. Bacteria are more numerous but that doesn't mean greater complexity in terms of functionality
He clearly said we are the most complex

 

[pittguy579]

Kinda like, in science you have to define a metric, and the use of an irrelevant metric does not support an argument.

Intelligence is a valid metric

 

[Edx]

Yes that is what he said. Bacteria are more numerous but that doesn't mean greater complexity in terms of functionality

You said we rule all other life, we dont, Gould specifically says bacteria do.

He clearly said we are the most complex

Show me then, the exact quote where he says that. What you showed us before does not say that.

 

[Edx]

Well obviously you don't have the ability to read because it is clear what he said

Really? Heres how it went:

Tomk80: And Gould definitely doesn't agree with you that humans are on top in the world. He specifically stated otherwise in the very article you quoted.

You: No, he agrees with me that are the most complex.

Tom is saying that Gould doesnt agree with you saying humans are on top of the world. You say "no he doesnt he says we are more complex!". Tom isnt talking about complexity, he had just addressed that in the previous paragraph. Gould doesnt agree that we rule over all other life, he specifically stated otherwise. Therefore, you didnt read what he wrote or if you did this is a dodge on purpose.

Have you scientifically defined what this horsepower is so that we can measure it against any other life or organ? No.

Intelligence and ability for abstract thought

That isnt a scientific measure. Its going to have to be mathematical Pittguy, otherwise its meaningless!

 

[steen]

I know its immpossible to not rubberneck the wreck this thread has become, its just too amusing the depths someone will dig there own holes.

But I still have to say it.

Don't feed the troll...

Put the trolls on ignore. Much easier on the eyes.

 

[I_Love_Cheese]

Intelligence is a valid metric

Define It,
How do you measure it? Is it species specific? Is it gender specifiic?

Is it in any way related to complexity outside of a tautalogical definition?

And when you are done failing all of the above which all of science has done, what does it have to do with the original question?

You didn't even attempt the question of why it was relevant.

 

[Dannager]

Intelligence is a valid metric

No, it isn't. Intelligence is a type of measurement, just as distance is a type of measurement. We still need a unit to measure it with. Distance is measured by yards, meters, inches, miles, etc. What do you propose we measure intelligence with?

 

[pittguy579]

You said we rule all other life, we dont, Gould specifically says bacteria do.

No, I said we rule in terms of complexity and we have more ability than any other form of life

Show me then, the exact quote where he says that. What you showed us before does not say that

It does say that

 

[Edx]

You said we rule all other life, we dont, Gould specifically says bacteria do.

No, I said we rule in terms of complexity and we have more ability than any other form of life

Well then big deal! My cat "rules" in terms of cuteness. So this is a bacterial planet, and bacteria rule...oh by my cat still rules in the cuteness department. So what?

What has any of this got to do with biology, and what has any of this got to do with the topic?

He clearly said we are the most complex

Show me then, the exact quote where he says that. What you showed us before does not say that

It does say that

And once again, how does it? He is compares us to...
bacteria", "jellyfish...", "a trilobite.."..fish". So yea, we are more complex than these. If he wanted to he say we were the most complex he could have said "bacteria, hawks, whales, fishes". But he didnt, he chooses to compare us to the simplest forms of life. And you think that was just done by accident?

Yet you apparently can get from this that he is saying unquestionably that we are the most complex living animal!?


-----

Oh, and we're still waiting for that UNIT of measurement by which we can scientifically access overall complexity of a living organism. "Intelligence" is not a unit of measurement.

 

[pittguy579]

And once again, how does it? He is compares us to...
bacteria", "jellyfish...", "a trilobite.."..fish". So yea, we are more complex than these. If he wanted to he say we were the most complex he could have said "bacteria, hawks, whales, fishes". But he didnt, he chooses to compare us to the simplest forms of life. And you think that was just done by accident?

Yes, it is clear from the context we are clearly the most complex animal of this era. Those other creatures you cited STILL EXIST. Hence, he thinks we are more complex than those

Yet you apparently can get from this that he is saying unquestionably that we are the most complex living animal!?

That is what he is saying.

 

[I_Love_Cheese]

Yes, it is clear from the context we are clearly the most complex animal of this era. Those other creatures you cited STILL EXIT. Hence, he thinks we are more complex than those

That is what he is saying.

 

[pittguy579]

No goal posts have been moved

 

[I_Love_Cheese]

No, it isn't. Intelligence is a type of measurement, just as distance is a type of measurement. We still need a unit to measure it with. Distance is measured by yards, meters, inches, miles, etc. What do you propose we measure intelligence with?

still running away from this one too.

 

[Edx]

Yes, it is clear from the context we are clearly the most complex animal of this era. Those other creatures you cited STILL EXIST. Hence, he thinks we are more complex than those

1. Actually Trilobites went extinct millions of years ago, sorry.

2. He thinks we are more complex than bacteria", "jellyfish...", "a trilobite.."..fish". Yes.

And his point is that bacteria have been around since the start of life over 3 billions years ago, and while we have only been here a moment in time comparably and have all this technology and brain power this planet has remained a bacterial planet and bacteria still rule over us. Those are his words not mine.

Yet you apparently can get from this that he is saying unquestionably that we are the most complex living animal!?

That is what he is saying.

Thats right Pitt, its just a coinsidence that Gould happenes to choose some of the most simplistic life forms to compare us to! And because we are more complex than bacteria", "jellyfish...", "a trilobite.." and "..fish". we are therefore more complex than all life forms!! YEY!


---------------------------


Reposting something you snipped...

You said we rule all other life, we dont, Gould specifically says bacteria do.

No, I said we rule in terms of complexity and we have more ability than any other form of life

Well then big deal! My cat "rules" in terms of cuteness. So this is a bacterial planet, and bacteria rule...oh but my cat still rules in the cuteness department! So what?

What has any of this got to do with biology, and what has any of this got to do with the topic?

-----

Oh, and we're still waiting for that UNIT of measurement by which we can scientifically access overall complexity of a living organism. "Intelligence" is not a unit of measurement.

 

[Tomk80]

Really? Heres how it went:

Tomk80: And Gould definitely doesn't agree with you that humans are on top in the world. He specifically stated otherwise in the very article you quoted.

You: No, he agrees with me that are the most complex.

Tom is saying that Gould doesnt agree with you saying humans are on top of the world. You say "no he doesnt he says we are more complex!". Tom isnt talking about complexity, he had just addressed that in the previous paragraph. Gould doesnt agree that we rule over all other life, he specifically stated otherwise. Therefore, you didnt read what he wrote or if you did this is a dodge on purpose.

Indeed, thanks. Again Pittguy is mixing up what I am saying and also what Gould is saying. It's getting irritating.

 

[pittguy579]

Once again, you are wrong, which you should be getting used to by now
The quote is

Once the most complex creature was a bacterium, then it was a jellyfish, then a trilobite, then a fish, and then us.

Once again, you are wrong,
He leaves alot of animals in between there for the sake of brevity, but he is clearly saying the most COMPLEX CREATURE IS US DUH

Checkmate

 

[pittguy579]

still running away from this one too.

No one is running away from it. It is clear we have the most ability to solve complex problems and patterns i.e. IQ Sure you can't give a dolphin a standard IQ test, but let's see who has done more during their stint on earth. I haven't seen dolphins build computers, buildings, or rockets that can go to the moon or contemplate the origin of the universe.