Lutherans, Baptism, Falling Away in Book of Hebrews

[jinc1019]

Hello All. I've been interested in Lutheranism for a long time, but I have not joined a Lutheran church. One of the things that has kept me from joining the Lutheran Church is a passage in the Book of Hebrews and how it relates to baptismal regeneration.

How do Lutherans understand Hebrews 6:4-6 in light of their views on baptism? In those verses, it says it is "impossible" to be "restored to repentance" after "falling away" from faith. But according to Lutherans, baptism regenerates and works faith and forgiveness of sin in all infant children validly baptized. Many people today are baptized as infants, though, and never show any signs of faith until they are much older. (Like me)

That makes it seem like (1) I had faith in Christ as a child and lost it, which means I cannot receive repentance now, or (2) I never had faith as a child, which fits with my experience but means baptism didn't regenerate me, or (3) I always had faith but didn't know it, actively lived in sin, and spoke against Jesus (this would seem to contradict other passages that talk about people living in unrepentant sin being unable to be justified.)

It seems like the only answer for a Lutheran is option 3, but based on my personal experience, that seems very, very hard to believe. I came to faith after undergrad (around 21). Prior to that, I don't recall having any faith in Jesus. I remember expressly telling people Jesus wasn't God. I didn't believe the Bible should be read literally. I was essentially a deist who thought Jesus *might* be some kind of a prophet and that's about it.

My personal experience seems to suggest that people can come to faith for the first time many years after baptism, but that would mean they never had faith (or regeneration) despite being baptized--or it would mean I don't really have faith now, because it's "impossible" for me to return to repentance.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't know how to reconcile this problem, and I'm hoping someone can help explain an alternative way of thinking about this issue.

 

[sandman]

Hello All. I've been interested in Lutheranism for a long time, but I have not joined a Lutheran church. One of the things that has kept me from joining the Lutheran Church is a passage in the Book of Hebrews and how it relates to baptismal regeneration.

How do Lutherans understand Hebrews 6:4-6 in light of their views on baptism? In those verses, it says it is "impossible" to be "restored to repentance" after "falling away" from faith. But according to Lutherans, baptism regenerates and works faith and forgiveness of sin in all infant children validly baptized. Many people today are baptized as infants, though, and never show any signs of faith until they are much older. (Like me)

That makes it seem like (1) I had faith in Christ as a child and lost it, which means I cannot receive repentance now, or (2) I never had faith as a child, which fits with my experience but means baptism didn't regenerate me, or (3) I always had faith but didn't know it, actively lived in sin, and spoke against Jesus (this would seem to contradict other passages that talk about people living in unrepentant sin being unable to be justified.)

It seems like the only answer for a Lutheran is option 3, but based on my personal experience, that seems very, very hard to believe. I came to faith after undergrad (around 21). Prior to that, I don't recall having any faith in Jesus. I remember expressly telling people Jesus wasn't God. I didn't believe the Bible should be read literally. I was essentially a deist who thought Jesus *might* be some kind of a prophet and that's about it.

My personal experience seems to suggest that people can come to faith for the first time many years after baptism, but that would mean they never had faith (or regeneration) despite being baptized--or it would mean I don't really have faith now, because it's "impossible" for me to return to repentance.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't know how to reconcile this problem, and I'm hoping someone can help explain an alternative way of thinking about this issue.

Possibly there are Lutherans that can address this from their perspective…

My information is a bit more general…..but may be helpful.

HEBREWS is not addressed to the church in the sense that we know the Church established on Pentecost. It is addressed to born again believers, but those who have never walked in the freedom of the new birth……. those who are still zealous for the law.

The “Church of God” epistles → Romans through Thessalonians are addressed directly to us those of us who are born again, sons and daughter of God walking in newness of life.

James Much like Hebrews was written to the Christian Jews of the dispersion, “the twelve tribes scattered abroad”. Those born again who seem to want to put themselves under the law. 1&2 Peter 1,2&3 John and Jude closely align themselves to this category also.

When reading those books (which are all great) you need to keep in mind to whom it is addressed. In addition to Romans chapters 9-11 which also deal with Judeans….and gentiles in chapter 11.


BTW ...That verse of scripture in Heb 6:4 is actually the opposite of what people regard it as …

 

[jinc1019]

Possibly there are Lutherans that can address this from their perspective…

My information is a bit more general…..but may be helpful.

HEBREWS is not addressed to the church in the sense that we know the Church established on Pentecost. It is addressed to born again believers, but those who have never walked in the freedom of the new birth……. those who are still zealous for the law.

The “Church of God” epistles → Romans through Thessalonians are addressed directly to us those of us who are born again, sons and daughter of God walking in newness of life.

James Much like Hebrews was written to the Christian Jews of the dispersion, “the twelve tribes scattered abroad”. Those born again who seem to want to put themselves under the law. 1&2 Peter 1,2&3 John and Jude closely align themselves to this category also.

When reading those books (which are all great) you need to keep in mind to whom it is addressed. In addition to Romans chapters 9-11 which also deal with Judeans….and gentiles in chapter 11.


BTW ...That verse of scripture in Heb 6:4 is actually the opposite of what people regard it as …

Thanks for the information. I will think about these points more. I'm not sure it really affects my concern, but perhaps I haven't thought about it enough.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Hey, great question(s)!

Perhaps the simplest way we can understand the text is that it has to do with what our Lord calls the unpardonable sin. That is, Christ is the Lamb of God who take away the sin of the world — He died for all sins upon the cross — yet, there is one sin that damns, and that is the sin of unbelief. This is to say, if we reject the person and works of Christ, we reject His grace, His gifts of life, salvation, and adoption. So, to be clear, the unpardonable sin is not some arbitrary sin or some sin we may commit accidentally, but rather, it's a life of unrepentance until death. We can find this all very succinctly summarised in Mark 16:16, where our Lord makes a promise to believers and to unbelievers: "Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

In Mark 16:16, we have a wonderful overview of salvation and how it correlates to faith and Baptism. It asserts whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, so here we see the close connection between faith and Baptism, and that they go together. They are both gifts from God, and they both have to do with the same Gospel promise. That is, God gives us His good news of Jesus by means of His Word and the same tangibly in Baptism, which He graciously gives us for our comfort and benefit. So, in other words, we don't conjure up our own faith, no, faith is worked in us by the Holy Spirit through the Word. And again, we didn't invent Baptism, but God is the one who instituted it, and He is the one who works it, through His Church. So Baptism is not something we do for ourselves or for God to somehow merit salvation, but rather, it's something God does for us, out of His great love and compassion for us.

Now, the verse also says that whoever does not believe will be condemned. And in this we see (1) there's no such thing as a mechanical baptism. That is, a baptism apart from faith. (2) A lack of baptism does not condemn, but only unbelief condemns. And this is the unpardonable sin. Namely, a life of rejection of Christ.

Now, with this in mind, let's look at the great commission, which will bring further clarity to all of this. Our Lord Jesus Christ says: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

What our Lord is saying here regarding Baptism is: (1) Make disciples AND THEN baptise them, and (2) make disciples BY baptising them. Both are true, for this is His great gift to "all nations", meaning, everyone everywhere in every time. And then we see this: Baptise AND TEACH. This is to say, Baptism and teaching go hand-in-hand, for again, Baptism and faith go together.

So, finally, to get to your questions directly: The gift or norm for Christians is that they are either converted or they are raised in the faith. They are both given the same Gospel promise and the same gift of faith; they are both born from above and given the Holy Spirit, either by God's Word and His Word in connection to the waters of Baptism, or just His Word. Now, can such people lose faith? Sadly, yes. For a clear example, consider our Lord's parable of the sower. Scriptures warn us repeatedly to remain firm in the faith, which means to live a life of receiving God's gifts of Word and Sacraments.

Now, if a person who was converted and then falls out of faith, is repentance possible? Yes. What about a child who was baptised but grew up faithless, is repentance possible? Yes. So, what is Hebrews 6 talking about then? It's talking about the sin of refusing to repent and believe in Jesus — such a person will not have life in Christ. So, in short, Hebrews warns us of cutting ourselves off from God's gifts which leads to unbelief, a rejection of Christ, and damnation.

So, when God baptised you as a child, through His Church, He put His name on you and gave you the Holy Spirit. So even if you wandered off for a time, by God's grace, you have been restored, so be comforted by knowing that Hebrews 6 does not condemn you. It simply serves as a promise and warning against those who reject Christ and refuse to repent.

Sorry for the long reply! The peace of Christ to you!

 

[jinc1019]

Hey, great question(s)!

Perhaps the simplest way we can understand the text is that it has to do with what our Lord calls the unpardonable sin. That is, Christ is the Lamb of God who take away the sin of the world — He died for all sins upon the cross — yet, there is one sin that damns, and that is the sin of unbelief. This is to say, if we reject the person and works of Christ, we reject His grace, His gifts of life, salvation, and adoption. So, to be clear, the unpardonable sin is not some arbitrary sin or some sin we may commit accidentally, but rather, it's a life of unrepentance until death. We can find this all very succinctly summarised in Mark 16:16, where our Lord makes a promise to believers and to unbelievers: "Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

In Mark 16:16, we have a wonderful overview of salvation and how it correlates to faith and Baptism. It asserts whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, so here we see the close connection between faith and Baptism, and that they go together. They are both gifts from God, and they both have to do with the same Gospel promise. That is, God gives us His good news of Jesus by means of His Word and the same tangibly in Baptism, which He graciously gives us for our comfort and benefit. So, in other words, we don't conjure up our own faith, no, faith is worked in us by the Holy Spirit through the Word. And again, we didn't invent Baptism, but God is the one who instituted it, and He is the one who works it, through His Church. So Baptism is not something we do for ourselves or for God to somehow merit salvation, but rather, it's something God does for us, out of His great love and compassion for us.

Now, the verse also says that whoever does not believe will be condemned. And in this we see (1) there's no such thing as a mechanical baptism. That is, a baptism apart from faith. (2) A lack of baptism does not condemn, but only unbelief condemns. And this is the unpardonable sin. Namely, a life of rejection of Christ.

Now, with this in mind, let's look at the great commission, which will bring further clarity to all of this. Our Lord Jesus Christ says: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

What our Lord is saying here regarding Baptism is: (1) Make disciples AND THEN baptise them, and (2) make disciples BY baptising them. Both are true, for this is His great gift to "all nations", meaning, everyone everywhere in every time. And then we see this: Baptise AND TEACH. This is to say, Baptism and teaching go hand-in-hand, for again, Baptism and faith go together.

So, finally, to get to your questions directly: The gift or norm for Christians is that they are either converted or they are raised in the faith. They are both given the same Gospel promise and the same gift of faith; they are both born from above and given the Holy Spirit, either by God's Word and His Word in connection to the waters of Baptism, or just His Word. Now, can such people lose faith? Sadly, yes. For a clear example, consider our Lord's parable of the sower. Scriptures warn us repeatedly to remain firm in the faith, which means to live a life of receiving God's gifts of Word and Sacraments.

Now, if a person who was converted and then falls out of faith, is repentance possible? Yes. What about a child who was baptised but grew up faithless, is repentance possible? Yes. So, what is Hebrews 6 talking about then? It's talking about the sin of refusing to repent and believe in Jesus — such a person will not have life in Christ. So, in short, Hebrews warns us of cutting ourselves off from God's gifts which leads to unbelief, a rejection of Christ, and damnation.

So, when God baptised you as a child, through His Church, He put His name on you and gave you the Holy Spirit. So even if you wandered off for a time, by God's grace, you have been restored, so be comforted by knowing that Hebrews 6 does not condemn you. It simply serves as a promise and warning against those who reject Christ and refuse to repent.

Sorry for the long reply! The peace of Christ to you!

Thank you for this "long reply"! I really appreciate your thoughtfulness. I will think about it more.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Thank you for this "long reply"! I really appreciate your thoughtfulness. I will think about it more.

Oh, no problem! I’m glad to hear that, thank you!

I was raised Pentecostal and came to the Lutheran Church later in life, so I can appreciate how challenging or confusing it can be to understand or compare different theological systems. But now this is something I quite enjoy and I’m always happy to learn and talk about it, so please feel free to reach out if I can help!

Blessings!

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

Hello All. I've been interested in Lutheranism for a long time, but I have not joined a Lutheran church. One of the things that has kept me from joining the Lutheran Church is a passage in the Book of Hebrews and how it relates to baptismal regeneration.

How do Lutherans understand Hebrews 6:4-6 in light of their views on baptism? In those verses, it says it is "impossible" to be "restored to repentance" after "falling away" from faith. But according to Lutherans, baptism regenerates and works faith and forgiveness of sin in all infant children validly baptized. Many people today are baptized as infants, though, and never show any signs of faith until they are much older. (Like me)

That makes it seem like (1) I had faith in Christ as a child and lost it, which means I cannot receive repentance now, or (2) I never had faith as a child, which fits with my experience but means baptism didn't regenerate me, or (3) I always had faith but didn't know it, actively lived in sin, and spoke against Jesus (this would seem to contradict other passages that talk about people living in unrepentant sin being unable to be justified.)

It seems like the only answer for a Lutheran is option 3, but based on my personal experience, that seems very, very hard to believe. I came to faith after undergrad (around 21). Prior to that, I don't recall having any faith in Jesus. I remember expressly telling people Jesus wasn't God. I didn't believe the Bible should be read literally. I was essentially a deist who thought Jesus *might* be some kind of a prophet and that's about it.

My personal experience seems to suggest that people can come to faith for the first time many years after baptism, but that would mean they never had faith (or regeneration) despite being baptized--or it would mean I don't really have faith now, because it's "impossible" for me to return to repentance.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't know how to reconcile this problem, and I'm hoping someone can help explain an alternative way of thinking about this issue.

hey man, I've come back from a long hiatus. I recommend reading Jack Kilcrease's book on justification to see if that helps. Honestly though based on the words in the book, I haven't found too much dealing with either the Presbyterian view or the Eastern Orthodox. I last spoke to you in a thread from like a decade ago. Since that time I've pondered this stuff for about 10 yrs. According to Jordan Cooper, it is an empty sign in Presbyterianism because the baptism doesn't there and then impart justification, only if that person is elect. However, in Lutheranism there is resistible grace, so if the young one being baptized resists somehow, we wouldn't really know either way. If you take Jesus literally, "I never knew you" then the Presbyterian view makes more sense, with its sort of deferred election, which you recognize at the time at which you actually believe in your life. However, this issue is perhaps the most complex issue in theology outside of the trinity systematic stuff. I'm still a LCMS Lutheran but I study Presbyterianism because I'm 4 point, and Eastern Orthodox. I can say I'm all three because of the early church fathers and the essence energy distinction. I think Weedon is right that Lutheranism is aligned with the church fathers on the sacraments and that the essence energy distinction is true. As far as I'm concerned the limited/unlimited atonement question is a mystery that gets into advanced intuionistic logic or nonclassical logic. There are statements that can be both true and false at once, see JC Beall for that. So what I would say is you are both elect and nonelect, "faith comes by hearing" makes you basically a confirmed elect, from deferred to confirmed, in my opinion. Because I believe in this logic, it also solves the "double predestination" mystery because that is built upon normal classical logic, so I would just say mystery again. Lutheranism is correct because it is seemingly illogical; it is beyond our comprehension like the trinity. In the verse, those people have confirmed their nonelection by commiting the unpardonable sin or unelected themselves in other words. We can't know as humans because the mind of God is beyond our logic, we don't try to think about God's "eternal decrees" as in Calvinism, and the question of double predestination. The hidden/revealed god and essence energies are similar if not the same in Chemnitz and Gregory Palamas. The uncreated light is really God but experienced by us without undoing divine simplicity, as long as you don't hold to a rigid Aquinian simplicity, which would lead to modal collapse and necessitarianism anyway. See "Mutual Hierarchy" by Dukeman for a more updated view of the Trinity.