Lutheran minister: Pope Francis told me Protestants and Catholics Are very close in how we worship

[Michie]

Pope Francis has signaled prior to the that Protestants should be able to receive Holy Communion with Catholics.

Lutheran minister: Pope Francis told me Protestants and Catholics are ‘very close’ in how we ‘worship’

 

[thecolorsblend]

Pope Francis has signaled prior to the that Protestants should be able to receive Holy Communion with Catholics.

Lutheran minister: Pope Francis told me Protestants and Catholics are ‘very close’ in how we ‘worship’

Sure, why not share the Blessed Sacrament with a bunch of people who don’t even believe in the Real Presence? What’s the harm?

Oy...

 

[Halbhh]

"The minister’s claim that the Pope told him that the Catholic Mass and a Lutheran worship service are very similar is causing a stir in some Catholic circles."

Catholics that come to our church here say the services are basically "identical" or there is "no difference".

("public worship" as Francis called it, the forms, how the service is, in details)

Also, my close friend, who is ardently Catholic, says the same.

That's pretty good evidence that's a correct, accurate view. Also, to me, not having grown up in either church, but now attending a lutheran one, my 5 or so masses at Catholic churches have shown me the services look pretty much the same in all visible ways, to someone that's been in varied services in a lot of churches. None of the other churches were even close to the Catholic/Lutheran exact details, though there are some partial similarities in other churches.

Pope Francis has signaled prior to the that Protestants should be able to receive Holy Communion with Catholics.

Lutheran minister: Pope Francis told me Protestants and Catholics are ‘very close’ in how we ‘worship’

Sure, why not share the Blessed Sacrament with a bunch of people who don’t even believe in the Real Presence? What’s the harm?

Oy...

The explicit and very clear Lutheran teaching is the Real Presense of Christ in the Eucharist. (the linked article is merely mistaken on that detail, which perhaps is a common mistake people make that aren't in a Lutheran church)

You are accidentally grouping Lutheran with some other churches, it seems.

 

[dzheremi]

As both the Catholic and Lutheran churches are western churches, shouldn't we expect their worship to be similar? Or at least more similar than different? Maybe it would be a different matter if Pope Francis had spoken to a member of a 'low church' Protestant tradition, but the fact that he supposedly said this to a member of the Lutheran clergy probably means that this wasn't the case, in this particular instance.

I'm confused as to why this has caused a stir.

(Not the part about Protestants and Catholics receiving communion together; that seems to cross a clearer line.)

 

[Halbhh]

As both the Catholic and Lutheran churches are western churches, shouldn't we expect their worship to be similar? Or at least more similar than different? Maybe it would be a different matter if Pope Francis had spoken to a member of a 'low church' Protestant tradition, but the fact that he supposedly said this to a member of the Lutheran clergy probably means that this wasn't the case, in this particular instance.

I'm confused as to why this has caused a stir.

(Not the part about Protestants and Catholics receiving communion together; that seems to cross a clearer line.)

As we know, each pastor/priest can have a unique viewpoint in some ways, and sometimes it will include the question of who can take communion. But at least in our synod, all who are in good conscience are welcome to take communion, and one doesn't have to be a recognized member of our church. I never tried to watch to see if the visiting Catholics have, because that is not my focus during that time. I think if I did watch, it would be that I was not in the right place mentally.

 

[dzheremi]

I meant that to commune Protestants would cross a clearer line among Catholics. Sorry for not being clearer.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Pope Francis has signaled prior to the that Protestants should be able to receive Holy Communion with Catholics.

Lutheran minister: Pope Francis told me Protestants and Catholics are ‘very close’ in how we ‘worship’

I guess I don't doubt that the Lutheran minister heard pope Francis say that. It's just that I want an actual Catholic for the next pope. One who doesn't play fast and loose with ecumenism.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Sure, why not share the Blessed Sacrament with a bunch of people who don’t even believe in the Real Presence? What’s the harm?

Oy...

Depending on the kind of Lutherans they might have a better understanding of and reverence for the Real Presence than the average cafeteria Catholic. It's a sorry state of affairs. Well, somewhat good for those Lutherans. Bad for the cafeteria Catholics.

We have the Anglican Ordinariate for Episcopalians who have come into union with the Catholic Church. It's high time we had a Lutheran Ordinariate. [Disclosure: I could actually join such an ordinariate as my mother was Lutheran. I can't join an Anglican Ordinariate as only my grandfather was Methodist.]

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Sure, why not share the Blessed Sacrament with a bunch of people who don’t even believe in the Real Presence? What’s the harm?

Oy...

But they do. They believe in consubstation, which is basically identical with the beliefs of the EO.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Good Lord, y'all can't get this right. Lutherans teach sacramental union, which is similar to consubstantiation, but not exactly. It teaches that the body and blood are present with the bread and wine. However, it avoids Aristotle's substance and accident terminology, which constubstantion still relies on. That was the one objection of the Lutheran fathers regarding transubstantiation.

Eastern Orthodox teach that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ but we will not ordinarily use Aristotelian terminology. This is why EOs are permitted to commune at an RCC church. We will not do so as we excommicate ourselves from the EO church.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Good Lord, y'all can't get this right. Lutheran's teach sacramental union, which is similar to consubstantiation. This teaches that the body and blood are present with the bread and wine. However, it avoids Aristotle's substance and accident terminology. That was the real objection of the Lutheran fathers regarding transubstantiation.

Eastern Orthodox teach that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ but we will not ordinarily use Aristotelian terminology. This is why EOs are permitted to commune at an RCC church. We will not do so as we excommicate ourselves from the EO church.

So... how exactly did I get this wrong? Lutherans do believe in real presense and so does the EO, though articulated a tad differenly.
Youre basically arguing about nuances.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Depending on the kind of Lutherans they might have a better understanding of and reverence for the Real Presence than the average cafeteria Catholic. It's a sorry state of affairs. Well, somewhat good for those Lutherans. Bad for the cafeteria Catholics.

We have the Anglican Ordinariate for Episcopalians who have come into union with the Catholic Church. It's high time we had a Lutheran Ordinariate. [Disclosure: I could actually join such an ordinariate as my mother was Lutheran. I can't join an Anglican Ordinariate as only my grandfather was Methodist.]

With respect, are there a lot of Lutherans out there clamoring to come home to Rome? It seems like a lot of effort to go to so unless there’s some considerable demand, I don’t think it’s worth the bother.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

With respect, are there a lot of Lutherans out there clamoring to come home to Rome? It seems like a lot of effort to go to so unless there’s some considerable demand, I don’t think it’s worth the bother.

Yes, most of them comes off as more than happy to keep things as they are. Not worth it, i agree.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

So... how exactly did I get this wrong? Lutherans do believe in real presense and so does the EO, though articulated a tad differenly.
Youre basically arguing about nuances.

Yes but very important ones. I'm a former Lutheran elder (similar in scope to a deacon) and a Greek Orthodox chanter and former seminarian so I simply cant abide misapplied theological terms. I'm anal that way

(The quotes are from Wikipedia)

Lutheran Formula of Concord of 1580 (one of the Lutheran Confessions)
"For the reason why, in addition to the expressions of Christ and St. Paul (the bread in the Supper is the body of Christ or the communion of the body of Christ), also the forms: under the bread, with the bread, in the bread [the body of Christ is present and offered], are employed, is that by means of them the papistical transubstantiation may be rejected and the sacramental union of the unchanged essence of the bread and of the body of Christ indicated.[5]" Lutherans would object to the notion of "Essence" as a philosophical problem.

Consubstantiation holds that during the sacrament, the substance of the body and blood of Christ are present alongside the substance of the bread and wine, which remain present. It was part of the doctrines of Lollardy and considered a heresy by the Roman Catholic Church.

The Orthodox view rejects consubstantiation entirely as in the Divine Liturgy the priest prays

Priest (in a low voice): Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we beseech and pray and entreat You: Send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon the gifts here presented,
And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ.
And that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Your Christ.
Changing them by Your Holy Spirit.
So that they may be for those who partake of them for vigilance of soul, remission of sins, communion of Your Holy Spirit, fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven, boldness before You, not for judgment or condemnation. Again, we offer You this spiritual worship for those who have reposed in the faith: forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith,

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Yes but very important ones. I'm a former Lutheran elder (similar in scope to a deacon) and a Greek Orthodox chanter and former seminarian so I simply cant abide misapplied theological terms. I'm anal that way

(The quotes are from Wikipedia)

Lutheran Formula of Concord of 1580 (one of the Lutheran Confessions)
"For the reason why, in addition to the expressions of Christ and St. Paul (the bread in the Supper is the body of Christ or the communion of the body of Christ), also the forms: under the bread, with the bread, in the bread [the body of Christ is present and offered], are employed, is that by means of them the papistical transubstantiation may be rejected and the sacramental union of the unchanged essence of the bread and of the body of Christ indicated.[5]" Lutherans would object to the notion of "Essence" as a philosophical problem.

Consubstantiation holds that during the sacrament, the substance of the body and blood of Christ are present alongside the substance of the bread and wine, which remain present. It was part of the doctrines of Lollardy and considered a heresy by the Roman Catholic Church.

The Orthodox view rejects consubstantiation entirely as in the Divine Liturgy the priest prays

Priest (in a low voice): Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we beseech and pray and entreat You: Send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon the gifts here presented,
And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ.
And that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Your Christ.
Changing them by Your Holy Spirit.
So that they may be for those who partake of them for vigilance of soul, remission of sins, communion of Your Holy Spirit, fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven, boldness before You, not for judgment or condemnation. Again, we offer You this spiritual worship for those who have reposed in the faith: forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith,

Your background taken into consideraton, i totally unserstand that
Im a lutheran theologian, but i havent duck to deep into a comparative study of the differences between the Augsburg confession and the eucharistic teachings of the east.
Perhaps i should

 

[chevyontheriver]

With respect, are there a lot of Lutherans out there clamoring to come home to Rome? It seems like a lot of effort to go to so unless there’s some considerable demand, I don’t think it’s worth the bother.

There are some. There are not a lot. Nor are there a lot of Anglicans/Episcopalians clamoring to come home either. Some. And the official path of reunion has been clogged up by their folks going off the deep end. The Ordinariates are a sign of mercy because ecumenism between Anglicans and Catholics has flopped.

 

[thecolorsblend]

There are some. There are not a lot. Nor are there a lot of Anglicans/Episcopalians clamoring to come home either. Some. And the official path of reunion has been clogged up by their folks going off the deep end. The Ordinariates are a sign of mercy because ecumenism between Anglicans and Catholics has flopped.

If the implicit goal of ecumenism is reunification then yes, it can only be described as a flop.

But if the goal is understanding what the other side believes and at least figuring out why reunification is impossible (for eternal judgment purposes, if nothing else) then the only fair way to categorize that ecumenism is as an unqualified success.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Your background taken into consideraton, i totally unserstand that
Im a lutheran theologian, but i havent duck to deep into a comparative study of the differences between the Augsburg confession and the eucharistic teachings of the east.
Perhaps i should

If you REALLY want to geek out, try to dig up a copy of "Augsburg and Constantinople", the letters between the Lutherans and Patriarch Jeremias II.

https://www.amazon.com/Augsburg-Constantinople-Correspondence-Theologians-Confession/dp/0916586820

 

[dzheremi]

Huh. "Papistical."

Okay, then.

 

[Halbhh]

Consubstantiation holds that during the sacrament, the substance of the body and blood of Christ are present alongside the substance of the bread and wine, which remain present.

I'm fortunate never to have been controlled by such an abstraction.

It's so much more simple, and so much more deep than abstractions like consubstantiation and transubstantiation (their attempts at reduction) :

"This is the body of Christ"

Just that.

(Also, implied here: this is above us. Not below us so that we could control and specify this with our abstractions.)

Your background taken into consideraton, i totally unserstand that
Im a lutheran theologian, but i havent duck to deep into a comparative study of the differences between the Augsburg confession and the eucharistic teachings of the east.
Perhaps i should

Hopefully we all forget these abstractions in that moment we partake.

-----------
Francis has it right here. See? The reductions are not to control us.