Lutheran Evangelism

[MichaelNZ]

After reading this thread, I realise that the Lutheran view of salvation is different to the Reformed view. I don't really understand the rejection of "decision theology".

What would you do if you were witnessing to a friend and telling them how Jesus died for their sins and they can have forgiveness right now through believing in Jesus? Say they told you that they believe that Jesus died for their sins and want to be saved. Reformed and Evangelicals would most likely lead them in a "sinner's prayer". What would a Lutheran do?

How would Lutherans feel about using Evangelical frameworks/programs for evangelism, such as Ray Comfort's Way of the Master, Evangelism Explosion or Two Ways to Live? I am a big fan of Ray Comfort's method as he uses the Ten Commandments to show people that they have broken God's laws and need forgiveness.

By the way, do Lutherans generally do door-to-door evangelism or street preaching?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Subscribed.

I'm curious about how Lutherans see the Great Commission, and how they practically seek to carry it out.

 

[FireDragon76]

By the way, do Lutherans generally do door-to-door evangelism or street preaching?

No.

Lutherans have had missionaries but the approach used was different. I guess much like Catholics or Orthodox, it is a more attractional approach. There's an old 1950's film the ELCA has on Youtube called "The Difference." It's a pitch for religious colleges, but there is one scene that is about an Indian young man's testimony of how he became a Christian after being treated by Christian doctors, despite being an untouchable, he is shown compassion by people that are living out their vocation. And this compassion and sense of indebtedness inspires him to want to be a doctor too. I think that is far more like what Lutheran "evangelism" is about- it's tied into living out your vocation as discipleship, rather than having a specific religious obligation to "offer" salvation. In fact vocation is a big theme in the short film, and might be relevant to understand the Lutheran conceptualization of the Christian life, which is indeed different from the Reformed understanding.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

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[MichaelNZ]

Okay, so what would you do if you were talking to a friend/colleague/acquaintance, you shared the Gospel with them and they said they believed what you told them? Would you ask them to pray to God for salvation, either with the words of a "sinner's prayer" (which is Biblical, see Luke 18:13) or using their own words? If not, what would you do?

 

[FireDragon76]

How do you think that lines up with the, "Go. . ." of the Great Commission?

Jesus was addressing the apostles, who were commissioned to go out and preach the good news. That was their vocation. It's not a universal vocation that everyone has.

The Sinner's Prayer would have little or no place in Lutheranism. Faith is a gift received by hearing the Word and receiving the Sacraments. Our certainty of our salvation is not conditioned on having met standards of religious piety, even things as seemingly good as asking God for forgiveness.

I'm trying to be respectful to the fact there's both anti-unionist confessionalist (LCMS) on this forum, as well as more mainline Lutherans. So I don't want to give the impression of a general "Lutheran" response to that. I suspect Lutherans on the whole, if it were pertinent, might talk about their faith and what it does for them. And if the listener expressed interest, the person might direct them to their church, or a church, where they could receive the sacraments.

Having said that, every Sunday, most Lutherans have a general confession... it is not necessary for salvation, but it is a fitting thing to do. We confess our sins, then the pastor declares our sins are forgiven.

This is what I love about Lutheranism. It is the only form of Christianity that preaches the Gospel as pure Gospel (Good News). There are no "gotchas" or strings attached, no secret burdens we must fulfill before we can be sure we are acceptable to God. Reformed theology, sadly, does not live up to this promise. It may say that it does, but in practice it undermines the promise by putting sanctification front and center in its theology and praxis. The temptation is always to look inward to ones own experience or deeds to find assurance of our salvation. In Lutheranism, assurance is found in Baptism and the Lord's Supper, where God uses ordinary creatures to give us his grace (in this way, it is not completely unlike Roman Catholicism, and Reformed Christians might perceive it as "medieval", but IMO, that is the beauty of it- it is hopelessly "premodern" and doesn't care about being "relevant" or faddish).

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Jesus was addressing the apostles, who were commissioned to go out and preach the good news. That was their vocation. It's not a universal vocation that everyone has.

Aren't your clergy of the same vocation?

I do not see the great commission as pertaining to all Christians either.

The Sinner's Prayer would have little or no place in Lutheranism.

It has no place in Reformed thought either.

Faith is a gift received by hearing the Word and receiving the Sacraments.

How will the lost hear? Must they seek and find a Lutheran Church? Do Lutherans seek them out?

Our certainty of our salvation is not conditioned on having met standards of religious piety, even things as seemingly good as asking God for forgiveness.

Neither is mine.

This is what I love about Lutheranism. It is the only form of Christianity that preaches the Gospel as pure Gospel (Good News). There are no "gotchas" or strings attached, no secret burdens we must fulfill before we can be sure we are acceptable to God.

Of course. The Reformed hold to the "Doctrines of Grace". No burdens there.

Reformed theology, sadly, does not live up to this promise. It may say that it does, but in practice it undermines the promise by putting sanctification front and center in its theology and praxis. The temptation is always to look inward to ones own experience or deeds to find assurance of our salvation.

This has never been my experience in any Reformed church or teaching I've read or heard. How have you arrived at such a conclusion?

 

[FireDragon76]

Aren't your clergy of the same vocation?

Yes. I don't think Lutheran pastors, or even a lot of laypeople, have problems discussing religion with non-Lutherans or non-Christians, when it is pertinent or edifying. I've seen my pastor strike up religious conversations with strangers.

I think, at least for the ELCA, if it had to be nailed down, there is a quasi-Methodist notion, at least in the emphasis on the universal nature of Christ's atonement. But I'd say its very low key compared to Methodism (and I grew up Methodist)- it's a lot less manipulative in tone. You aren't going to find the Ray Comfort style evangelism in mainline Lutheranism (and I doubt you'ld find it among many LCMS, either), for one thing the way the Law-Gospel is presented is too unsophisticated. There's no guilt-tripping people into an emotional attachment to Jesus, as my pastor says, the Church should be there to help people through the struggles of life, that's its mission. The law is preached as a mirror of the human condition, not as some kind of religious formula. That means a little more subtlety is necessary than trying to go through a list of sins, as if God were nothing more than a cosmic cop rousting us for picking our feet in Poughkeepsie.

I think the issue is that Lutherans have been overshadowed by the Reformed in the US. As Billy Graham said, Lutherans have untapped spiritual potential. It's because for decades they were an immigrant church that had cultural barriers. They were more concerned with trying to protect themselves against nativist sentiment that implied they were disloyal, shifty, or drunkards.

One nice thing about the ELCA is that they do have limited intercommunion with the Reformed, especially Presbyterians. We've had a Presbyterian pastor, who is now at rest in the Lord, preside at our church as a substitute on days the pastor was sick or out of town. As long as they don't preach anything un-Lutheran, they are allowed to do so in the ELCA.

How will the lost hear? Must they seek and find a Lutheran Church? Do Lutherans seek them out?

Lutherans have different assumptions about what "lost" means. For one thing, I'd imagine a lot of Reformed folks think of Roman Catholics as "lost". Lutherans would be a lot less prone to do so. So anybody who is baptized is, according to orthodox Lutheran theology, is presumptively part of the elect. That means there's not any particular reason they need to "get saved". We aren't talking about lost people- maybe wayward people.

Now, there are probably folks out there who have not heard of Jesus. But I don't see any evidence that the best way to get those people to be Christians is to repackage the way Christians have done church for centuries. If they don't respond, they don't respond- it's not our place to judge by results.

Of course. The Reformed hold to the "Doctrines of Grace". No burdens there.

Some Reformed do have a more Lutheran approach. It just depends. This is especially true of the continental Reformed churches that focus on the ordinary means of grace. But what happened in Britain, and especially the US, with Puritanism, is far from Lutheranism on the subject. And it's what a great many American Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists know.

I think the American Lutheran expertise is preaching the Gospel to broken people. Especially people broken by religion. In my own case, Lutheranism was the last stop on the way to being unchurched.

 

[MichaelNZ]

So anybody who is baptized is, according to orthodox Lutheran theology, is presumptively part of the elect. That means there's not any particular reason they need to "get saved".[/QUOTE/

Does this mean that a person who was baptised as a baby but subsequently rejected the Christian faith, became an atheist and lived an immoral lifestyle would go to heaven simply because of their baptism?

 

[ViaCrucis]

What would you do if you were witnessing to a friend and telling them how Jesus died for their sins and they can have forgiveness right now through believing in Jesus? Say they told you that they believe that Jesus died for their sins and want to be saved. Reformed and Evangelicals would most likely lead them in a "sinner's prayer". What would a Lutheran do?

Something along the lines of this: We would praise God for having granted to them the gift of faith, which is only possible because of the Holy Spirit who works such faith by the efficacious means of God's grace, His Word and Sacraments. We would then welcome them to come and see, to speak with a pastor and begin the preparation to receive Holy Baptism and being welcomed into the Family of God.

There is no "sinner's prayer" or similar. Lutherans confess that God works through the external means of Word and Sacrament to affect and work faith upon and into the individual; and that this is the sole, singular work of God out of His immeasurable kindness and love toward us in Christ Jesus our Lord.

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves." - The Large Catechism, on the Apostles' Creed, Article III

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Does this mean that a person who was baptised as a baby but subsequently rejected the Christian faith, became an atheist and lived an immoral lifestyle would go to heaven simply because of their baptism?

No, it would mean that they have rejected their baptism, shipwrecked their faith, and become apostate. Lutherans do not believe in "once saved, always saved".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jimmyjimmy]

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[Tangible]

"Go" into all the world. . .

Lutherans DO go, and have historically gone, to many different parts of the world to evangelize. There are more Lutherans in both Madagascar and Tanzania than in any European country. Lutheran Bible Translators is one of the largest bible translation organizations, adding new languages and dialects every day to the list of scriptures that people can read in their mother languages. Also, the Lutheran Synods have active missionary training and sending facilities. Here is a link to LCMS Missions and Outreach Missions and Outreach - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

It's interesting to me that many Evangelicals see fulfilling the great commission as going or sending others to some far-flung land, many of which already have indigenous churches, in order to convert them to American Evangelical Christianity, all the while neglecting the clear mandate of scripture to make disciples of their own children by baptizing them and teaching them the doctrines of the Church.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

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[Tangible]

Specifically, I was referring to Evangelicals' refusal to baptize their children into the faith, as instituted and commanded by Our Lord.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Specifically, I was referring to Evangelicals' refusal to baptize their children into the faith, as instituted and commanded by Our Lord.

I'm a baby-baptizer, but even I think your wording is a bit of stretch.

 

[Tangible]

Matthew 28:19-20 (ESV)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age"

Instituted and commanded. Make disciples (by) baptizing and teaching. All nations.

Evangelicals (which I used to be) refuse to baptize children unless they are old enough to make a conscious agreement and give their personal assent.

Which part of my wording is a bit of a stretch?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Matthew 28:19-20 (ESV)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age"

Instituted and commanded. Make disciples (by) baptizing and teaching. All nations.

Evangelicals (which I used to be) refuse to baptize children unless they are old enough to make a conscious agreement and give their personal assent.

Which part of my wording is a bit of a stretch?

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[MarkRohfrietsch]

This is just a reminder that this is the Lutheran Forum, and as such, it falls under the Congregational rule here at Christian Forums. If persons want to debate against Lutheran theology and practice; please start a thread in Denomination Specific Theology; here is the rule for you review:

Congregational Forum Restrictions
Members who do not truly share the core beliefs and teachings of a specific congregational forum may post in fellowship or ask questions, but they may not teach or debate within the forum.​

 

[BubbaJack]

No, it would mean that they have rejected their baptism, shipwrecked their faith, and become apostate. Lutherans do not believe in "once saved, always saved".

-CryptoLutheran

How does a person know if they have reached this state? What if one falls into the same behaviors over and over, feels condemned and hopeless, gets angry at God, but comes back later? What if he does this again and again? Is his faith a sham?

A friend wanted me to ask.