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Lutheran Eucharist

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by mea kulpa, Feb 17, 2017 at 10:14 AM.

  1. mea kulpa

    mea kulpa Benedictine Traditional Catholic

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    I have been doing some reading and came across a lutheran teaching on the eucharist and i was wondering if the Catholic understanding is exactly the same... its obviously close but is it the same?

    "Lutheran Christains recognize that in the Lord’s Supper Jesus Christ is present as the Crucified who died for our sins and who rose again for our justification as the once-for-all sacrifice for the sins of the world. This sacrifice can be neither continued, nor repeated, nor replaced, nor complemented; but rather it can and should become ever effective anew in the midst of the congregation."

    I think its very close but i dont know what they mean by it being anew.

    We would say correct me if i am wrong that the once and for all sacrafice of christ is not continued but is the continual i.e eternal once and for all sacrafice re presented at all the masses said from one moment to the next.

    So what does anew mean?

    Google says it means

    "in a new or different and typically more positive way"

    Do you think this "anew" could be considered catholic too?

    To me It sounds a kind of abstract term and openended without a concrete definition.
     
  2. RC1970

    RC1970 Post Tenebras Lux

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    The Lutheran view is not even close to the RCC view. RCC believes that a real sacrifice occurs during the consecration and that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ. The Lutherans do not believe that a new sacrifice occurs (Christ's sacrifice was once and for all) and that Christ's presences is "in, with and under" the elements of bread and wine.
     
  3. Michie

    Michie Member of the manipulation resistance team X2 Supporter

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    Nevermind. Reading on this phone is driving me crazy.
     
  4. Anhelyna

    Anhelyna Handmaid of God Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Mea - if you really want to know what the Lutherans believe - why not ask them ?
     
  5. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member

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    I'm not so sure it is that simple. For one thing, there are lots of different kinds of Lutherans with very divergent views. Which of them speaks for all Lutherans on the Eucharist? Lutherans are all over the map. Even the paleo-Lutherans can look to different documents from their early days to find different statements. Then there is the early Luther vs the later Luther. Some Lutherans, Lutheran congregations, and Lutheran Synods have essentially the same understanding as the Catholic Church. Some are more akin to a totally symbolic view.
     
  6. mea kulpa

    mea kulpa Benedictine Traditional Catholic

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    No i want to know if the statement in the o.p is like the catholic understanding?
     
  7. Anhelyna

    Anhelyna Handmaid of God Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    But you need to know what the Lutherans believe so you can compare it with our teaching - that's the only way you will know if it's like Catholic understanding
     
  8. mea kulpa

    mea kulpa Benedictine Traditional Catholic

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    But that is what the luthrans believe
     
  9. Anhelyna

    Anhelyna Handmaid of God Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    in your OP you said

    <<I think its very close but i dont know what they mean by it being anew.>>

    You need to get a Lutheran to explain exactly what they mean by anew

    Only then can you really start to see if it comes near our teaching - and you will have a problem since there are varying view points among Lutherans
     
  10. mea kulpa

    mea kulpa Benedictine Traditional Catholic

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    I just want to know if that statement lines up with catholic understanding
     
  11. Sword of the Lord

    Sword of the Lord Here I am, Lord. Send me!

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    It's been explained to me that's it's a renewing of the Covenant of Christ: forgiveness of sins through the sacrifice of his flesh and the pouring out of his blood. He's not literally sacrificed again and again.

    We believe in the real presence. His body and blood is in, with, and under the presence of bread and wine. How this is, is a mystery. He says that it's his body and blood, so we believe it literally, although it remains a mystery as to how.
     
  12. mea kulpa

    mea kulpa Benedictine Traditional Catholic

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    "Lutheran Christains recognize that in the Lord’s Supper Jesus Christ is present as the Crucified who died for our sins and who rose again for our justification as the once-for-all sacrifice for the sins of the world. This sacrifice can be neither continued, nor repeated, nor replaced, nor complemented; but rather it can and should become ever effective anew in the midst of the congregation."

    Ok so lets replace lutherans with Catholics... so it would be

    Catholics recognize that in the Lord’s Supper Jesus Christ is present as the Crucified who died for our sins and who rose again for our justification as the once-for-all sacrifice for the sins of the world. This sacrifice can be neither continued, nor repeated, nor replaced, nor complemented; but rather it can and should become ever effective anew in the midst of the congregation.

    This is the catholic understanding

    Yes or No?
     
  13. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member

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    Lutherans as individuals believe all sorts of things. Some are so close to Catholic teaching on the Eucharist it is difficult to distinguish. There are some Lutherans way more Catholic than the average Catholic.
     
  14. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member

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    Here is a summary of the results of the official USCCB dialogue with American Lutherans from about 50 years ago. It is probably as close to definitive as will be found anywhere, although at least the Lutheran goalposts may have moved a bit.

    The Eucharist

    There is substantial agreement, but not total agreement. For one thing, they didn't even discuss the validity of orders.
     
  15. Sword of the Lord

    Sword of the Lord Here I am, Lord. Send me!

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    Basically, we don't literally sacrifice Christ over and over again, and the bread and wine is literally his flesh and blood, but the elements of bread and wine still remain.
     
  16. Davidnic

    Davidnic Advisor's Assistant Staff Member Advisor's Assistant Administrator Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    We don't Sacrifice Him over and over again either. It is always one. Tied to the original Sacrifice. You have to look at it from the view of a kairotic sense of time. One everlasting Sacrifice represented.
     
  17. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

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    Lutherans believe in consubstantiation that the Lord supernatural becomes physically present in communion and then goes away the same way after. Which explains why they Throw away the leftovers instead of their ministers consuming them
     
  18. Sword of the Lord

    Sword of the Lord Here I am, Lord. Send me!

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  19. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

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    So a lutheran pastor told me the Lord supernaturally becomes present in the bread and wine. I asked so why do you throw away whats what's left if he's supernatural present? He said the Lord then goes a way.
     
  20. Sword of the Lord

    Sword of the Lord Here I am, Lord. Send me!

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    It helps to know which branch. If ELCA, they're no more Lutheran than TEC is Catholic.