"Lutheran Confessions: Anti-Catholicism Formalized"

[amariselle]

Having grown up attending a Lutheran church (LCC), and having an interest in the "Ecumenical Movement", I found this article to be of significance to this topic: (from a Catholic source)

"Lutheran Confessions: Anti-Catholicism Formalized"

From the article (May 30, 2018):

"All thoughtful, serious and faithful Christians hope that someday all of the followers of Christ will be unified in practice and in doctrine, just as Christ and the Apostles desired. There are ongoing efforts between the Catholic Church and various other Christian communions that would appear to offer some hope. "

"Melanchthon's Power and Primacy of the Pope was assembled with other Lutheran confessional documents into the Formula of Concord of 1580. The Formula, by inclusion of this document, formalized and dogmatized the Lutheran belief that the Bishop of Rome is the actual Antichrist. Of course many Lutherans, to their credit, do not believe such gibberish. In fact, the official teaching that the Pope is the Antichrist is not well publicized within Confessional Lutheranism, and for good reason. It is, however, the official position of Confessional Lutheranism and as such is a tremendous obstacle for corporate-level ecumenical efforts."

"When people join the Confessional Lutheran Communions, like The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod in the United States, they are required to profess that they believe everything stated in the Formula, including those extremely anti-Catholic pronouncements. The same thing applies to those being ordained into the ministry."

"As it stands, the Formula of Concord with its offensive and anti-Catholic language is a huge impediment to productive dialogue between the Confessional Lutheran communions and the Catholic Church. Furthermore, since the Formula is considered to be binding and unchangeable, even if the Confessional Lutheran communions wanted to alter it so that it would be less offensive to Catholics, they can't. If they were to change even a small part of it, it would be to admit that it really wasn't doctrinally reliable after all, which would throw the whole doctrinal foundation of Lutheranism into doubt."

"Every radical teaching of Martin Luther sprang from his need to protect his most unprecedented and destructive doctrine: Salvation by Faith Alone. Catholic priests offer up the Holy Eucharist as a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the Father. To Luther though, this denied "the efficacy of Christ's atoning work" on the cross. Anything which challenges Salvation by Faith Alone was, to Luther, evil and must be opposed as the work of Satan."

"Given the impediments to ecumenical progress contained in the Formula of Concord and the current position of Confessional Lutheranism, it would seem that the only way to achieve unity is to convince Lutherans individually that the Church is exactly what it claims to be, and to hopefully welcome them into the Church that Christ established for all men, one soul at a time."

So, given that many in the Catholic church consider the current official position of "Confessional Lutherans" to be hateful and "anti-Catholic" (which is of course an accusation Protestants and Evangelicals have thrown at them endlessly) the suggestion put forth in this article is that to further Ecumenism and unity, (that is, to bring Lutherans into the Catholic church), Catholics will need to "convince Lutherans individually that the Church is exactly what it claims to be."

Which of course, presupposes the idea that Lutherans (and other Protestants and Evangelicals) don't actually know that the Church is "exactly what it claims to be." (i.e. all "Confessional Lutherans" are simply ignorant in regard to what the Catholic church actually is). Which is indeed another accusation that Protestants and Evangelicals regularly come up against when they question (Biblically) the official teachings and traditions of Catholicism.

Anyway, from a Lutheran perspective, what are some thoughts on this? (As I mentioned earlier, I grew up attending an LCC church, though I now simply consider myself a "Christian.")

 

[Albion]

You said it there. Two very fundamental views that are imparted to every Catholic by their church are:

1. No one who is not a Catholic at the moment can possibly know anything about the Catholic Church,

and

2. All non-Catholics spend most of their time thinking of how to misrepresent the RCC.

 

[amariselle]

You said it there. Two very fundamental views that are imparted to every Catholic by their church are:

1. No one who is not a Catholic at the moment can possibly know anything about the Catholic Church,

and

2. All non-Catholics spend most of their time thinking of how to misrepresent the RCC.

Very accurate. I just wish it could be understood that one does not need to be Catholic to understand what the Catholic church teaches. But then, they won't listen to former Catholics either.

 

[tampasteve]

H
So, given that many in the Catholic church consider the current official position of "Confessional Lutherans" to be hateful and "anti-Catholic" (which is of course an accusation Protestants and Evangelicals have thrown at them endlessly) the suggestion put forth in this article is that to further Ecumenism and unity, (that is, to bring Lutherans into the Catholic church), Catholics will need to "convince Lutherans individually that the Church is exactly what it claims to be."

Not necessarily individually, but that would work too. The best way is by dialogue, both official and unofficial. Confessional Lutheran beliefs and the issues held against the RCC are there to see and discuss. However, if it were reviewed in depth it would show that the RCC has righted some of the issues that Martin Luther and other early Lutherans had with the RCC. That said, many congregants that are a part of the LCMS and WELS would never entertain crossing the Tiber, regardless of what the official statements might say. On the other hand, I would say that many, or even most, Catholics know little about Lutheran theology, even many Lutherans do not know their theology and end up more Calvinist or Reformed than Lutheran. Many, even to posts from this week, Catholics on this forum say "other religions" when referring to non-Catholics. Much ground needs to be covered for the lay people in the congregations.

Which of course, presupposes the idea that Lutherans (and other Protestants and Evangelicals) don't actually know that the Church is "exactly what it claims to be." (i.e. all "Confessional Lutherans" are simply ignorant in regard to what the Catholic church actually is). Which is indeed another accusation that Protestants and Evangelicals regularly come up against when they question (Biblically) the official teachings and traditions of Catholicism.

Claims to be? That would need to be expounded. To me, it is supposing that Lutherans just need to accept that the RCC is the one true church and agree with the dogma and doctrines that it has decree.

Anyway, from a Lutheran perspective, what are some thoughts on this? (As I mentioned earlier, I grew up attending an LCC church, though I now simply consider myself a "Christian.")

From an overall Lutheran perspective we can see that much headway has been made over the last 100 years for reconciliation. Will a full reconciliation ever occur? I cannot say, but I am hopeful.

 

[tampasteve]

Very accurate. I just wish it could be understood that one does not need to be Catholic to understand what the Catholic church teaches. But then, they won't listen to former Catholics either.

It sometimes does not matter. I am a lapsed Catholic myself, Lutheran now. However, when one talks to people and corrects them with official Catholic teachings sometimes one gets the reply "maybe officially, but the Church does not really teach that..." or "the church might officially disagree with that practice, but look at it in reality." Both are valid statements of the issue managing a massive global organization, there will always be people abusing the Mass or making things their own - even if it is officially against teachings. For example, Marian veneration can be a positive practice, but there are absolutely people that take it to far, with little to no push back from the official church.

 

[Halbhh]

Not necessarily individually, but that would work too. The best way is by dialogue, both official and unofficial. Confessional Lutheran beliefs and the issues held against the RCC are there to see and discuss. However, if it were reviewed in depth it would show that the RCC has righted some of the issues that Martin Luther and other early Lutherans had with the RCC. That said, many congregants that are a part of the LCMS and WELS would never entertain crossing the Tiber, regardless of what the official statements might say. On the other hand, I would say that many, or even most, Catholics know little about Lutheran theology, even many Lutherans do not know their theology and end up more Calvinist or Reformed than Lutheran. Many, even to posts from this week, Catholics on this forum say "other religions" when referring to non-Catholics. Much ground needs to be covered for the lay people in the congregations.

Claims to be? That would need to be expounded. To me, it is supposing that Lutherans just need to accept that the RCC is the one true church and agree with the dogma and doctrines that it has decree.

From an overall Lutheran perspective we can see that much headway has been made over the last 100 years for reconciliation. Will a full reconciliation ever occur? I cannot say, but I am hopeful.

Well, the catholics I've met in person simply accept me, reliably. They don't suggest I'm not Christian. And the close Catholic friend who is the most educated in doctrine acknowledges that Christians are saved by their faith and following Christ (keeping His words, doing His commandments) to use a simple and quick paraphrase. So...for me it seems as if the Catholics that fail to acknowledge other Christians as being Christian may be instead only the very doctrinaire (* note below), that is, the wall builders. Those wrongly caught up in an us-vs-them mindset. Now, I may be lucky to meet really friendly Catholics, but they've all seemed friendly. And I may be lucky to meet unusually ecumenical Catholics, or even perhaps they just keep other thoughts to themselves, but my own experience is that lay Catholics are inclusive. Many times this has been my experience, and never the opposite. Only on the internet have I found some someone claiming to be "Catholic" (their claim) but then also being unfriendly, and wall building. But the average Catholic person you meet in my neighborhood truly is inclusive (for real) and truly doing love-your-neighbor (and my neighborhood is most all Catholic). Is this an usual parish?? Don't know. Additionally the Catholics that visit our ELCA Lutheran Church have been invariably friendly, those I've talked with.

---------------
* -- by the word 'doctrinaire' I mean someone who holds picky doctrines (not the doctrine of Love) as a way to separate and divide against others, who puts these ideas above love, holds to the ideas instead or over-against Love you neighbor as yourself. Those eager to judge and exclude, draw lines, and maintain their...well, pharisee-like superiority.

 

[amariselle]

Not necessarily individually, but that would work too. The best way is by dialogue, both official and unofficial. Confessional Lutheran beliefs and the issues held against the RCC are there to see and discuss. However, if it were reviewed in depth it would show that the RCC has righted some of the issues that Martin Luther and other early Lutherans had with the RCC. That said, many congregants that are a part of the LCMS and WELS would never entertain crossing the Tiber, regardless of what the official statements might say. On the other hand, I would say that many, or even most, Catholics know little about Lutheran theology, even many Lutherans do not know their theology and end up more Calvinist or Reformed than Lutheran. Many, even to posts from this week, Catholics on this forum say "other religions" when referring to non-Catholics. Much ground needs to be covered for the lay people in the congregations.

While I’m certainly not against “dialogue” in the sense that I do believe it’s important to learn what others believe, it seems to me that since Vatican II the Catholic church has attempted to put on a “friendly face” as it were. They have portrayed themselves as very Ecumenical in their attempt to bring the “separated brethren” “home to Rome.” And yet, none of their core doctrines and traditions have actually changed.

Interestingly, this has actually created a rift within the Catholic church itself, as there are a significant number of Catholics that do reject Vatican II and all the resulting changes that have come about because of it.

Personally, I believe the “Ecumenical Movement” to be extremely dangerous, as it requires setting aside doctrine and just “getting along.” As Christians we should understand why doctrine is so important and why it does cause division at times.

Claims to be? That would need to be expounded. To me, it is supposing that Lutherans just need to accept that the RCC is the one true church and agree with the dogma and doctrines that it has decree.

That is in fact the point, yes. In the end, it’s not actually about “meeting in the middle” so to speak (which could be dangerous enough), it’s about bringing “separated brethren” back into the “one true Catholic Church.”

From an overall Lutheran perspective we can see that much headway has been made over the last 100 years for reconciliation. Will a full reconciliation ever occur? I cannot say, but I am hopeful.

In some ways it does seem that headway has been made (various meetings have occurred and official argreements have been signed) but in other ways there is more division than ever. (Including in the Catholic church, much as they want to deny it and say division only exists in Protestant and Evangelical churches.)

Doctrine is always going to divide and not all division is wrong. I for one am not in favour of putting the truths of Scripture aside for the sake of “unity.”

 

[amariselle]

It sometimes does not matter. I am a lapsed Catholic myself, Lutheran now. However, when one talks to people and corrects them with official Catholic teachings sometimes one gets the reply "maybe officially, but the Church does not really teach that..." or "the church might officially disagree with that practice, but look at it in reality." Both are valid statements of the issue managing a massive global organization, there will always be people abusing the Mass or making things their own - even if it is officially against teachings. For example, Marian veneration can be a positive practice, but there are absolutely people that take it to far, with little to no push back from the official church.

Well, in regard to Marian veneration, I’ll just say this (as that is not the specific topic of this thread). It’s not that people take it too far because there is no “push back from the official church”, it is actually encouraged by church leadership, and ultimately by the Pope.

Pope John Paul II is well known for his Marian veneration, and Pope Francis dedicated all of humanity’s “temporal and eternal destinies” to “Our Lady of Fatima.”

(Fatima being an apparition declared legitimate by the Vatican. This “apparition” having promised salvation to all who devote themselves to her “Immaculate heart.”)

Not surprising therefore that so many Catholic laity would follow suit and “take it too far.”

This is why doctrine is important.

 

[Halbhh]

An additional thing to keep in mind: The Church is One already, because Christ prayed to the Father for it to be, and so it is in the only way that matters -- the real Body of Christ, those who truly believe in Christ risen and to come again -- they are in all churches, all sorts of situations, and superficial labels do not matter at all. His accept each other in love.

 

[amariselle]

An additional thing to keep in mind: The Church is One already, because Christ prayed to the Father for it to be, and so it is in the only way that matters -- the real Body of Christ, those who truly believe in Christ risen and to come again -- they are in all churches, all sorts of situations, and superficial labels do not matter at all. His accept each other in love.

Absolutely. This true unity is not something brought about by human effort, or by putting oneself under a hierarchy of men. It is a unity that is spiritual. All true, born again believers are the “body of Christ”, and we worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

 

[FireDragon76]

When Lutherans who believe that talk about antichrist, they do not mean the same thing that Adventist-inspired traditions mean by it. We are not involved in the usual apocalyptic speculations of many American evangelicals. Anyone who sets themselves against the Gospel is antichrist.

In addition, we do not believe the man himself is necessarily antichrist, nor do we disparriage his character necessarily. Those Lutherans who hold to that particular confessional interpretation, simply believe the office is antichrist.

 

[amariselle]

When Lutherans who believe that talk about antichrist, they do not mean the same thing that Adventist-inspired traditions mean by it. We are not involved in the usual apocalyptic speculations of many American evangelicals. Anyone who sets themselves against the Gospel is antichrist.

I agree with your definition of “anti-Christ above. Though of course, many still refer to the “anti-Christ.” (“The man of sin” - 2 Thessalonians 2)

In addition, we do not believe the man himself is necessarily antichrist, nor do we disparriage his character necessarily. Those Lutherans who hold to that particular confessional interpretation, simply believe the office is antichrist.

Yes, the office of Pope. Interestingly, I heard nothing about this or what Martin Luther and many “reformers” believed regarding this, during all the years I grew up in the LCC. My maternal grandparents were Catholic as well, and I really didn’t become aware of significant differences between Catholicism and Protestantism until I was in Highschool.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The article says that the official position of confessional Lutheranism is that the Pope is Anti-Christ. Is this true?

 

[amariselle]

The article says that the official position of confessional Lutheranism is that the Pope is Anti-Christ. Is this true?

Well, it’s not something I ever heard when I grew up in the LCC. I didn’t learn Luther’s (and the position of other “reformers”) on this until I was in my teens. However, as has already been noted, I think it was more to do with the office of Pope itself, and not with a specific Pope.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Well, it’s not something I ever heard when I grew up in the LCC. I didn’t learn Luther’s (and the position of other “reformers”) on this until I was in my teens. However, as has already been noted, I think it was more to do with the office of Pope itself, and not with a specific Pope.

What does it mean to separate the office of the Papacy from the Pope himself in applying the term Antichrist? Did Luther have this distinction in mind when he called the Pope Antichrist?

If we are to equate the office of the papacy with Anti Christ, what is to be said of those who willingly hold such an office? Do they then not personally bear that moniker as well?

 

[amariselle]

What does it mean to separate the office of the Papacy from the Pope himself in applying the term Antichrist? Did Luther have this distinction in mind when he called the Pope Antichrist?

If we are to equate the office of the papacy with Anti Christ, what is to be said of those who willingly hold such an office? Do they then not personally bear that moniker as well?

I’m not precisely sure what Luther himself meant (perhaps there is someone here who has done more research into this topic than I have).

A lot has been written over many many years on the subject. There are those who refer to 2 Thessalonians 2 in regard to the “man of sin.” Then there are also the verses that talk about the “spirit of antichrist” (1 John 4:2-4)

So, in regard to the office of Pope, as many reformers claimed the “antichrist” nature of that office and the Papacy, I don’t think they were necessarily focused on one single man.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I’m not precisely sure what Luther himself meant (perhaps there is someone here who has done more research into this topic than I have).

A lot has been written over many many years on the subject. There are those who refer to 2 Thessalonians 2 in regard to the “man of sin.” Then there are also the verses that talk about the “spirit of antichrist” (1 John 4:2-4)

So, in regard to the office of Pope, as many reformers claimed the “antichrist” nature of that office and the Papacy, I don’t think they were necessarily focused on one single man.

Well we're not necessarily talking about the Antichrist but many anti-christs who could be any number of individuals. If the confessions aren't referring to the former but the latter that would still indicate that all the popes are antichrists while not being the penultimate AntiChrist right?

 

[amariselle]

Well we're not necessarily talking about the Antichrist but many anti-christs who could be any number of individuals. If the confessions aren't referring to the former but the latter that would still indicate that all the popes are antichrists while not being the penultimate AntiChrist right?

In the sense that they (the Popes) hold an office that has been/is believed by many to be a tied to the “spirit of antichrist”, i.e. opposed to Christ, while claiming to represent Him, yes, that would likely be a position many have held.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Having grown up attending a Lutheran church (LCC), and having an interest in the "Ecumenical Movement", I found this article to be of significance to this topic: (from a Catholic source)

"Lutheran Confessions: Anti-Catholicism Formalized"

From the article (May 30, 2018):

"All thoughtful, serious and faithful Christians hope that someday all of the followers of Christ will be unified in practice and in doctrine, just as Christ and the Apostles desired. There are ongoing efforts between the Catholic Church and various other Christian communions that would appear to offer some hope. "

"Melanchthon's Power and Primacy of the Pope was assembled with other Lutheran confessional documents into the Formula of Concord of 1580. The Formula, by inclusion of this document, formalized and dogmatized the Lutheran belief that the Bishop of Rome is the actual Antichrist. Of course many Lutherans, to their credit, do not believe such gibberish. In fact, the official teaching that the Pope is the Antichrist is not well publicized within Confessional Lutheranism, and for good reason. It is, however, the official position of Confessional Lutheranism and as such is a tremendous obstacle for corporate-level ecumenical efforts."

"When people join the Confessional Lutheran Communions, like The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod in the United States, they are required to profess that they believe everything stated in the Formula, including those extremely anti-Catholic pronouncements. The same thing applies to those being ordained into the ministry."

"As it stands, the Formula of Concord with its offensive and anti-Catholic language is a huge impediment to productive dialogue between the Confessional Lutheran communions and the Catholic Church. Furthermore, since the Formula is considered to be binding and unchangeable, even if the Confessional Lutheran communions wanted to alter it so that it would be less offensive to Catholics, they can't. If they were to change even a small part of it, it would be to admit that it really wasn't doctrinally reliable after all, which would throw the whole doctrinal foundation of Lutheranism into doubt."

"Every radical teaching of Martin Luther sprang from his need to protect his most unprecedented and destructive doctrine: Salvation by Faith Alone. Catholic priests offer up the Holy Eucharist as a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the Father. To Luther though, this denied "the efficacy of Christ's atoning work" on the cross. Anything which challenges Salvation by Faith Alone was, to Luther, evil and must be opposed as the work of Satan."

"Given the impediments to ecumenical progress contained in the Formula of Concord and the current position of Confessional Lutheranism, it would seem that the only way to achieve unity is to convince Lutherans individually that the Church is exactly what it claims to be, and to hopefully welcome them into the Church that Christ established for all men, one soul at a time."

So, given that many in the Catholic church consider the current official position of "Confessional Lutherans" to be hateful and "anti-Catholic" (which is of course an accusation Protestants and Evangelicals have thrown at them endlessly) the suggestion put forth in this article is that to further Ecumenism and unity, (that is, to bring Lutherans into the Catholic church), Catholics will need to "convince Lutherans individually that the Church is exactly what it claims to be."

Which of course, presupposes the idea that Lutherans (and other Protestants and Evangelicals) don't actually know that the Church is "exactly what it claims to be." (i.e. all "Confessional Lutherans" are simply ignorant in regard to what the Catholic church actually is). Which is indeed another accusation that Protestants and Evangelicals regularly come up against when they question (Biblically) the official teachings and traditions of Catholicism.

Anyway, from a Lutheran perspective, what are some thoughts on this? (As I mentioned earlier, I grew up attending an LCC church, though I now simply consider myself a "Christian.")

Being a member of a LCC Congregation, you must be aware of the ongoing dialogue between not only LCC and the Catholic Church, but the ongoing dialogues between the ILC and the Vatican. Just as there are very hateful protestants that are inherently anti Catholic, there are Catholics that are very anti everyone else. This website is one of those. In the past, our Catholic brothers and sisters here in Canada have provided their Churches for our use when there is no LCC Church large enough for us to use when we hold our conventions in various cities.

Below is a video of the opening service for our Synod's convention in British Columbia; the Church is Holy Rosary Catholic Cathedral in Vancouver; and yes, that is a Lutheran Mass being celebrated on a Catholic Altar:

LCC Church Workers Conference, opening service at St. Mary's Catholic Cathedral in Calgary Alberta:

For the whole story we need to consult more than just "Radical" factions of each side of the story.

Blessings,

Mark

 

[amariselle]

Being a member of a LCC Congregation, you must be aware of the ongoing dialogue between not only LCC and the Catholic Church, but the ongoing dialogues between the ILC and the Vatican. Just as there are very hateful protestants that are inherently anti Catholic, there are Catholics that are very anti everyone else. This website is one of those. In the past, our Catholic brothers and sisters here in Canada have provided their Churches for our use when there is no LCC Church large enough for us to use when we hold our conventions in various cities.

Below is a video of the opening service for our Synod's convention in British Columbia; the Church is Holy Rosary Catholic Cathedral in Vancouver; and yes, that is a Lutheran Mass being celebrated on a Catholic Altar:

LCC Church Workers Conference, opening service at St. Mary's Catholic Cathedral in Calgary Alberta:

For the whole story we need to consult more than just "Radical" factions of each side of the story.

Blessings,

Mark

Thanks for the info. I hope you didn’t misunderstand my purpose in posting. Also, I do a lot of research, and I don’t simply consult “radical factions” for my info. Official Catholic sources can be very helpful in learning what is being said and done today in regard to Ecumenism.