Lutheran Church Embraces Homosexuality

[BigBadWlf]

Here, let me help you out, since your answer is incorrect.

Ceremonial Law was specific to the people it was delivered to. In the new testament, we see Paul tell us through Colossians that we are free from ceremonial law:

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
​

There is no such release from homosexuality or other moral sins, however, In fact, the New Testament pretty well condemns it amongst other things:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders , nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
​

This passage is great, though, because it does address the other sinful natures that people are inhabited with. Basically, the difference between myself and an unbeliever is repentance. I still sin...daily. But having been washed clean by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, my repentance and God's forgiveness takes those sins away. The above passage refers to those living in unrepentant sin. You can call yourself a Christian until you're blue in the face, but if you live a lifestyle (whatever that lifestyle may be) that is contradictory to God's word and you have no remorse (or you tell everyone how "right" and "good" that lifestyle is), then God's answer to you on judgment day just may well be different than what you expect.

Ceremonial law=anything that seems like law in the Bible but is too ridiculous to be so
Moral law=everything else.

 

[BigBadWlf]

*sigh*

Anne Lamott believes the same "Feel good, anything goes" gospel that many churches today teach, so I expect her to take this attitude.

No one hates anybody, so you can put your strawman away.

Christians should hate sin. But hating a sin doesn't equal hating the person committing the sin.

In my undergraduate days I took a course in minority studies. The professor had quite a few insights into what constituted hate and what did not. Her formula to determine if a statement was hateful or not was to take that statement and replace the minority with either another minority or with a minority you belong to (we are all in some sort of minority)

I will challenge you to take any thread on the topic of homosexuality and replace homosexuals gays and lesbians with a different minority…African American, Jewish, Hispanic, Muslim, handicapped and honestly read then with the new minority and ask if you as a moderator would tolerate such a post in these forums…and then ask if there is any way to construe what is said in this re-written post as loving….and then ask why is there a difference.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Well I have my bible right here book marked to Leviticus… can you please cite the chapter and verse of this book that details which laws are “ceremonial” and which laws are “moral”?

Look in the new testament. I already answered this question for you, but you still need to actually crack open your bible before you'll understand.

Ceremonial law=anything that seems like law in the Bible but is too ridiculous to be so
Moral law=everything else.

No, because ceremonial laws were actually laws back in the day.

In my undergraduate days I took a course in minority studies. The professor had quite a few insights into what constituted hate and what did not. Her formula to determine if a statement was hateful or not was to take that statement and replace the minority with either another minority or with a minority you belong to (we are all in some sort of minority)

I will challenge you to take any thread on the topic of homosexuality and replace homosexuals gays and lesbians with a different minority…African American, Jewish, Hispanic, Muslim, handicapped and honestly read then with the new minority and ask if you as a moderator would tolerate such a post in these forums…and then ask if there is any way to construe what is said in this re-written post as loving….and then ask why is there a difference.

Oh, it's the same tired argument all the time. Being gay is not the same as being black, okay? Get over it. People don't get to choose their skin color the way they choose their sexual partners. As much you want to say otherwise, people choose to be gay and choose to have relationships with those of the same sex. I, as a heterosexual, can certainly choose to not have sex with someone because it's sinful, just as a homosexual could choose to not have sex with someone because it's sinful. So don't bring that tired argument about being gay is just like being black. My sister-in-law says it falls way short and that even gays don't know discrimination and hatred the way black folks do. Pssst: she didn't choose to be black.

 

[b.hopeful]

So you choose to be straight? Deep down, your body would sexually respond to a woman just like it does a man? See...I'm straight....and I could look at naked women all day and think...she has a cute belly button, I wish I had hips like that....where are her tan lines? ...and never be sexually aroused. However, I can't say that about men. So...you choose to be turned on by men...and not women?

 

[Polycarp1]

No, b. hopeful, according to many of the anti-gay contingent, gays choose to be gay, in order to thumb their noses at God or something. And as regards that sort of people, the commands of Jesus on how to behave toward others don't apply -- they'll explain why, if you give them a chance.

I think even better would be to give her the choice: 1. Admit you cherrypick just like you say the liberals do, and that's not so bad if there's a good reason for doing it (e.g., following Jesus's instructions about when and how to apply the Law); 2. Just shut up and let the menfolk talk, as St. Paul states clearly that women are supposed to do (if, of course, you take the 'clear text of Scripture' view that they apply to the anti-gay 'clobber verses'; or 3. Become male. Because with God all things are possible, as they keep explaining to the gays. So if she doesn't want to admit that she too cherrypicks and doesn't want to shut up as commanded in literal-reading Scripture of women, then obviously she needs to choose to become male. And pray for the appropriate miracle, or sign up for an "ex-female conversion therapy deliverance ministry" to help her make the transition.

Yes, that was deeply sarcastic. But I really find it difficult to believe that people who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ both refuse to listen and accept the clear statements of gay people about themselves (choosing to stay celibate is difficult but possible; choosing not to 'be gay' as an orientation, is not possible) and have so little compassion that they insist on flogging gay people generally for the excesses of a few.

Well, there's a Lutheran nutball politician running around Minnesota and a Baptist nutball politician running around Oklahoma that are calling for all gay people to be executed. And you know, those Lutherans and those Baptists, they're all alike. So probably PW and her husband (a Lutheran preacher!), need to be locked up as people who are publicly calling for mass murder, right? Because as good Christians they're doing unto others as they would want done unto them, right?

Or maybe, just maybe, we might take Jesus and His teachings seriously, and treat each other as human beings, each with our own set of problems, each in need of a Savior that brings new and more abundant life -- and expects us to show forth that grace-filled compassion in our own lives.

Radical idea, I suppose. Not something God could expect of us.

Except He does.

 

[Polycarp1]

Let me clarify: I was not seriously suggesting any of the above regarding PW2004 -- just holding her, by way of fairness, to the standard she seems to feel appropriate to hold gay people to, as an example of the problem here.

Probably the key point is: how does Jesus teach that we should use and not use Scripture? And then, why aren't we repenting and doing just that?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

So you choose to be straight? Deep down, your body would sexually respond to a woman just like it does a man? See...I'm straight....and I could look at naked women all day and think...she has a cute belly button, I wish I had hips like that....where are her tan lines? ...and never be sexually aroused. However, I can't say that about men. So...you choose to be turned on by men...and not women?

I choose who I have sex with, yes, and who I am attracted to. If were to look at another man and lust after him, that would be sinful. I choose to not do so. Anyone who tells you that they cannot choose the same is lying to themselves and anyone who will listen to them.

I have friends who have homosexual attractions and they fight them because they know it's against God's words, just like my heterosexual friends who fight temptation to have affairs or have premarital sex.

Polycarp and other pro-gay people want homosexuality to be accepted as not sinful, even though the bible strictly prohibits it, just as it prohibits other sins...where's the lobby for the acceptance of those sins? In the passage I quoted earlier, where's the people saying that's it's really okay to swindle people? That's it's really okay to cheat on your wife? Hey, drink all you want! It's okay, the bible didn't really mean to say that those are sins...

You see, that's what got us in trouble the first time around. "Did God really say...?"

 

[Polycarp1]

You don't listen very well, ma'am. I've said, several times, "the Bible specifically condemns some heinous sins that involve gay sex acts. The question we're arguing about is whether those condemnations extend to all gay sex acts, as looking at those verses in isolation as prohibitions in divine Law appears to be saying, or not, as looking at those verses in the context of what was being said to whom in what cultural context would suggest."

I think having sex, of any kind, as a fertility rite to a false God, is very sinful. I think having sex in violation of a commitment you made to your husband or wife to be faithful to him/her, is sinful. I think forcible rape is very evil, a sin against God and man, whether your victim is man, woman, boy, or girl -- and coercing someone into sex is the next thing to it, and just as evil. I think having sex for money with a boy prostitute (or any prostitute, for that matter) is sinful. I think having gay sex in search of new thrills because straight sex has become boring, is sinful. I see the Bible prohibiting them very clearly. What I don't see is those condemnations covering what gay people by and large claim to want.

You do see them as meaning that. I understand that. I think it's an erroneous application of Scripture, going against how Jesus taught us to use it, and violates what He said were the most important commandments.

And I find it very interesting that you apply scholarship to decide that "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't mean "Thou shalt not kill" as the text plainly states, but "don't murder anybody" (and I do agree with you on this), but cannot be bothered to do the same thing to the anti-gay texts. Or take the "don't charge interest on loans" texts, or the "don't turn a profit on selling food to your neighbor, lest he go hungry" texts that I brought up in another post. Are they dietary, ceremonial, or moral law? If the moral law, why are they not enforced with the same amount of denunciation of bankers and grocers as the others are of gays?

I'm saying our job, as Christians, is to show compassion and understanding to others, including gay people. Not to use the Bible like it was a book of statute law, enforced selectively according to the convenience of the church.

Please don't take this as an attack on you -- I see the position you are setting forth as inconsistent, and a serious misunderstanding of the one I'm setting forth in your words about "what Polycarp1 advocates", and I'm trying to show, as best I can, where I'm coming from.

I believe in a God who saves and redeems us, and gradually sanctifies us, remaking us into more nearly what He would have us be, because He loves us and wants only the best for us. That's why Jesus chose the term Father to show His nature -- not Lawgiver or Judge. Because God's justice, being perfect, includes grace and mercy. We don't get what we deserve -- thank God! We get so much more than that, undeserved and unearned, as His gift to us, and all He asks is that we love Him back, and try to show others the same grace and mercy that He pours forth on us.

Too much to ask of sinful humans, I guess.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

having a pastor for a husband, you don't think we've been "scholarly" about studying about homosexuality?

Just because our findings disagree with yours doesn't make you more educated.

The bible doesn't clarify that some homosexual acts are okay. It clearly states that it is unnatural. I'm not sure how you can continue to get around that. It's not like "oh, men having sex with boys isn't okay but men having sex with men is just fine". If your bible says that, get a new bible pronto!

Yes, God is compassionate and God shows mercy. But that doesn't mean we're to stay quiet when we see our brothers and sisters erring. It doesn't mean we hate people because we say "you're living a sinful lifestyle and you need to repent".

and while you claim that other sins don't get quite the same treatment, yes, they do. It's just not plastered all over the media because you don't see people saying "HEY! It's okay that I'm like this! ACCEPT ME! Accept my sin as not a sin!" A banker who chooses to do business in an immoral way and refuses to repent faces the same scrutiny that a person who is acting sexually immoral.

 

[Zeena]

*snip*
I'm saying our job, as Christians, is to show compassion and understanding to others, including gay people. Not to use the Bible like it was a book of statute law, enforced selectively according to the convenience of the church.

I concurr with this sentiment, as petains to the denizens of this world, whom we are exhorted NOT to judge;

1 Corinthains 5:12-13a
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth.

Yet, in the same token, we are also exhorted to be salt and light in the world by our Lord Jesus Himself;

Mathew 5:13-15
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Also note, I believe those that are "in the house" refer solely to the household of God by faith in Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 2:18-20
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Too much to ask of sinful humans, I guess.

Sinful humans are those who are without (EG;OUTSIDE the household of faith). And we, as a purified people unto God through the Spirit, are to be separate.

1 Corinthians 5:13b
Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

James 4:4-10
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Look in the new testament. I already answered this question for you, but you still need to actually crack open your bible before you'll understand.

I’ve asked this question hundreds of times here and not one…not once.. has the person I’m asking given an actual answer



if we are going to pretend the Old Testament has its over 600 laws divided into mutually exclusive categories then shouldn’t there be some notation of this in the Old Testament laws?

No, because ceremonial laws were actually laws back in the day.

Again please cite chapter and verse detailing what laws are “ceremonial”

Oh, it's the same tired argument all the time. Being gay is not the same as being black, okay? Get over it. People don't get to choose their skin color the way they choose their sexual partners. As much you want to say otherwise, people choose to be gay and choose to have relationships with those of the same sex. I, as a heterosexual, can certainly choose to not have sex with someone because it's sinful, just as a homosexual could choose to not have sex with someone because it's sinful. So don't bring that tired argument about being gay is just like being black. My sister-in-law says it falls way short and that even gays don't know discrimination and hatred the way black folks do. Pssst: she didn't choose to be black.

Rarely have I seen such tap dancing done to avoid actually looking at one’s own moral stance

In the end all your tap dancing to avoid actually engaging in the exercise I challenged you to showed that you understand my point and acknowledge it to be true. So why won’t you admit that?

Oh, it's the same tired argument all the time. Being gay is not the same as being black, okay? Get over it. People don't get to choose their skin color the way they choose their sexual partners.

Racists do not hate people because of skin color. Most of them would be happy to say they don’t hate black people because they are black and will happily ‘some of my best friends are …’ Racists protest those blacks who choose to defy the word of God and choose to act as social equals to whites.

As much you want to say otherwise, people choose to be gay and choose to have relationships with those of the same sex.

So you have actual evidence that people choose their sexual orientation? Would you care to share this momentous discovery with the rest of us?

I, as a heterosexual, can certainly choose to not have sex with someone because it's sinful, just as a homosexual could choose to not have sex with someone because it's sinful.

Can you name the exact day you chose to be heterosexual?

So don't bring that tired argument about being gay is just like being black. My sister-in-law says it falls way short and that even gays don't know discrimination and hatred the way black folks do. Pssst: she didn't choose to be black.

It’s not tired it just unanswered

If you want to go down the “choice” road to justify prejudice then I must point out that religion is a choice and one can choose to participate in a given religion or change religions. By your logic anti-Semitism is not an expression of hatred or prejudice because those Jews could choose to convert at any time

 

[BigBadWlf]

I choose who I have sex with, yes, and who I am attracted to. If were to look at another man and lust after him, that would be sinful. I choose to not do so. Anyone who tells you that they cannot choose the same is lying to themselves and anyone who will listen to them.

But that isn’t what hopeful asked at all.

Let me try to rephrase. Could you…right now this instant….choose to be homosexual. That means to be emotionally, romantically and sexually attracted to another woman so that you would want to leave your husband (who m you are by definition no longer emotionally, romantically or sexually attracted to) and get a girlfriend, court her, get married, raise a few children and spend the rest of you r life together and be happy?

I have friends who have homosexual attractions and they fight them because they know it's against God's words, just like my heterosexual friends who fight temptation to have affairs or have premarital sex.

If you support the kind of self hatred they are demonstrating then I can’t believe you are much of a friend

 

[PreachersWife2004]

But that isn’t what hopeful asked at all.

Let me try to rephrase. Could you…right now this instant….choose to be homosexual. That means to be emotionally, romantically and sexually attracted to another woman so that you would want to leave your husband (who m you are by definition no longer emotionally, romantically or sexually attracted to) and get a girlfriend, court her, get married, raise a few children and spend the rest of you r life together and be happy?

Yes.

I know people who have done this very thing. And no, they weren't living in some closet somewhere hoping no one would find out they were gay.

If you support the kind of self hatred they are demonstrating then I can’t believe you are much of a friend

So it's self hatred to avoid temptation? Try telling that to Jesus.

It's a bad friend who is a Christian yet has no problems letting their fellow believers sin their way to Hell.

 

[b.hopeful]

I choose who I have sex with, yes, and who I am attracted to. If were to look at another man and lust after him, that would be sinful. I choose to not do so. Anyone who tells you that they cannot choose the same is lying to themselves and anyone who will listen to them.

I have friends who have homosexual attractions and they fight them because they know it's against God's words, just like my heterosexual friends who fight temptation to have affairs or have premarital sex.

Polycarp and other pro-gay people want homosexuality to be accepted as not sinful, even though the bible strictly prohibits it, just as it prohibits other sins...where's the lobby for the acceptance of those sins? In the passage I quoted earlier, where's the people saying that's it's really okay to swindle people? That's it's really okay to cheat on your wife? Hey, drink all you want! It's okay, the bible didn't really mean to say that those are sins...

You see, that's what got us in trouble the first time around. "Did God really say...?"

That didn't answer the question...do you choose your orientation? It's not about who you are attracted to...it's about the gender you are called to love. So again....do you have the propensity to find women sexually attractive but fight it? Or are you orientated to only finding men sexually attractive?

 

[b.hopeful]

I didn't see your answer...so you are gay...but you just fight it. Got it...thanks!

 

[Zeena]

Racists do not hate people because of skin color. Most of them would be happy to say they don’t hate black people because they are black and will happily ‘some of my best friends are …’ Racists protest those blacks who choose to defy the word of God and choose to act as social equals to whites.




So you have actual evidence that people choose their sexual orientation? Would you care to share this momentous discovery with the rest of us?



Can you name the exact day you chose to be heterosexual?



It’s not tired it just unanswered

If you want to go down the “choice” road to justify prejudice then I must point out that religion is a choice and one can choose to participate in a given religion or change religions. By your logic anti-Semitism is not an expression of hatred or prejudice because those Jews could choose to convert at any time

The demand for imperical evidence lies on YOU. Since YOU are the one asserting homosexuality is genetically inborn, rather than a choice..

Where is this mystery gene?

I tell you, there's no such thing!

.

 

[razeontherock]

If you support the kind of self hatred they are demonstrating

You just said that for a heterosexual to fight temptation by abstaining from pre-marital sex or having an affair, whichever pertains, they do so via self-hatred.

That is what you said.

Now, please tell me that's not what you meant, and then clarify. Thanks.

 

[Zeena]

I didn't see your answer...so you are gay...but you just fight it. Got it...thanks!

I could be a murderer, but I'm just 'fighting it'.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I didn't see your answer...so you are gay...but you just fight it. Got it...thanks!

that's not what I said at all. I said that people fight temptation.

I could walk out of my house today and have an affair if I so chose to do so.
I could walk out of my house today and choose to rob a bank.
I could walk out of my house today and murder someone if I choose to do so.

Going out and choosing to not do these things is not self hatred...it's fighting temptation. Even Jesus was tempted, and He fought it as well.

Saying "I was born this way" is just another way for humankind to pass the buck onto someone else. People don't like taking responsibility for their sins.

 

[Zeena]

*snip*
Saying "I was born this way" is just another way for humankind to pass the buck onto someone else.

You got it sista!

God dun make sinners, He made us in His [moral] image.

Hosea 9:9
They have deeply corrupted themselves, as in the days of Gibeah: therefore he will remember their iniquity, he will visit their sins.

.