Lutheran approaches to depression

FireDragon76

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Is there anything to say? Sorry about the very, very broad topic here.

I don't think Lutheranism has the detailed psychological understanding of Eastern Orthodoxy, necessarily. Most Lutherans I know would say "Go to a doctor/therapist", etc. But I'll try to research this topic more.

One thing I see that isn't helpful is that alot of folks at our church who have kids that struggle with depression, and they just don't come to church. We aren't into arm twisting, but people that actually cut themselves off socially like this ultimately are engaging in self-defeating behaviors, because we know from sociological studies that in cultures where people do not respond to personal difficulties and stress with withdrawl, experience less personal subjective depression.
 
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archer75

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I don't think Lutheranism has the detailed psychological understanding of Eastern Orthodoxy, necessarily. Most Lutherans I know would say "Go to a doctor/therapist", etc. But I'll try to research this topic more.

One thing I see that isn't helpful is that alot of folks at our church who have kids that struggle with depression, and they just don't come to church. We aren't into arm twisting, but people that actually cut themselves off socially like this ultimately are engaging in self-defeating behaviors, because we know from sociological studies that in cultures where people do not respond to personal difficulties and stress with withdrawl, experience less personal subjective depression.
You mean the kids who have depression don't come, or the parents don't come?

Of course, it's pretty common to hear "hey, go to a doctor" anywhere, I think even in (US) Orthodoxy. And I have had trouble accessing the EO psychological understandingI don't know what gave me the idea that Lutherans might have some special take. Maybe it was a glitch of memory or something. But thanks, if you think of anything. Don't go to any special trouble.
 
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Resha Caner

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Is there anything to say? Sorry about the very, very broad topic here.

I don't know that there would be anything characteristically Lutheran about treating depression ... unless it relates to my frequent use of the phrase, "Lutheranism is an earthy view of religion." What I mean is that Lutherans (at least those I know) have no opposition to seeking the help of a trained psychologist. At the same time, they don't want that psychologist to dismiss the possibility of some kind of spiritual oppression.
 
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Ken C.

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I don't know that there would be anything characteristically Lutheran about treating depression ... unless it relates to my frequent use of the phrase, "Lutheranism is an earthy view of religion." What I mean is that Lutherans (at least those I know) have no opposition to seeking the help of a trained psychologist. At the same time, they don't want that psychologist to dismiss the possibility of some kind of spiritual oppression.
I don't normally like to talk about this but I was depressed for many years. I was even admitted to a state psych hospital for a period of time. One day near the end of my stay, a therapist came to me and pulled me off to the side. She said that because this was a state-sponsored hospital that no one on staff was allowed to talk about spiritual things to patients. She told me on the 'sly' to seek out a Lutheran Church and see if they might see me healed. I never did check on it. I wished I had but I indeed did get healed some years later and as it turned out, it was spiritual oppression. So the last line of your post brought back to me a good memory. Thanks.:amen:
 
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Resha Caner

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I don't normally like to talk about this but I was depressed for many years. I was even admitted to a state psych hospital for a period of time. One day near the end of my stay, a therapist came to me and pulled me off to the side. She said that because this was a state-sponsored hospital that no one on staff was allowed to talk about spiritual things to patients. She told me on the 'sly' to seek out a Lutheran Church and see if they might see me healed. I never did check on it. I wished I had but I indeed did get healed some years later and as it turned out, it was spiritual oppression. So the last line of your post brought back to me a good memory. Thanks.:amen:

I'm glad you're better. It's a long, hard road. Someone close to me struggled for years.
 
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FireDragon76

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You mean the kids who have depression don't come, or the parents don't come?

Of course, it's pretty common to hear "hey, go to a doctor" anywhere, I think even in (US) Orthodoxy. And I have had trouble accessing the EO psychological understandingI don't know what gave me the idea that Lutherans might have some special take. Maybe it was a glitch of memory or something. But thanks, if you think of anything. Don't go to any special trouble.

The children struggling with depression don't come to church. I notice a tendency among some Lutherans to hold feelings inside and to withdraw. I think that's very common among alot of northern Europeans, though, regardless of religion.

Luther himself seems to have struggled with depression and anxiety his whole life. Of course, the Reformation brought no end to troubles he had to deal with, so I think that's understandable. But there was a period after his "breakthrough" where he was prolific in his activity.
 
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FireDragon76

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I know I dealt with some serious issues before becoming Lutheran. I was entering an autistic regression of sorts, almost as serious as the one I experienced when I was eight years old. A bad experience in Eastern Orthodoxy did a number on my head and my heart. It was both spiritual and psychological, for me.

I went to a therapist alot and they helped me but I still had this kind of gallows nihilism that I could not shake, sort of like what Camus said - in a world without God, the only real question is suicide. He wasn't being clinically depressed or even genuinely suicidal so much as a serious deep thinker no longer obsessed with bourgeois niceties, and willing to stare into the Abyss. That's not necessarily a fun place to be, as Nietzsche said, the Abyss stares back at you, and you can become ungrounded and unglued if you stay that way too long.

I actually went to an acupuncturist alot, too, and that helped me when I was just feeling run down and there was no obvious medical explanation - in fact she was able to help me a great deal and kept me from having to take a lifetime of hormones (I was having serious hormonal imbalances). Even though she was Chinese (and probably had typical eclectic Chinese beliefs, judging by the fact her office seemed to be laid out according to feng shui), she did asked me once if I went to a church, and she thought that was important. Studying Chinese medicine on my own, as well, helped me realize that feeling good is about balancing alot of different things in your life, not just about looking for a silver bullet to make your problems go away. You have to take some responsibility for your own life, and not live too much in your head.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I don't think Lutheranism has the detailed psychological understanding of Eastern Orthodoxy, necessarily. Most Lutherans I know would say "Go to a doctor/therapist", etc. But I'll try to research this topic more.

One thing I see that isn't helpful is that alot of folks at our church who have kids that struggle with depression, and they just don't come to church. We aren't into arm twisting, but people that actually cut themselves off socially like this ultimately are engaging in self-defeating behaviors, because we know from sociological studies that in cultures where people do not respond to personal difficulties and stress with withdrawl, experience less personal subjective depression.

As someone who struggles with depression, and frequently does withdraw socially (I miss church far more frequently than I'd like to admit), I would agree that withdrawing doesn't help. At least personally that's my experience.

I take medication to help mitigate my depression and anxiety, which largely means that I can get out of bed and don't feel utterly destroyed most days; but it doesn't "fix" everything. I will be talking with a therapist sometime in the near future, I've been on a waiting list for several months, because the local clinic has been transitioning patients from one therapist who is moving to a new incoming therapist.

I also know that making it to church does help. I can feel it when I have missed church for too long, it's like an aching in my soul (if that makes any sense).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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FireDragon76

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As someone who struggles with depression, and frequently does withdraw socially (I miss church far more frequently than I'd like to admit), I would agree that withdrawing doesn't help. At least personally that's my experience.

There's a psychotherapeutic approach called Morita Therapy that might be worth looking into. It is based in a Japanese perspective. It's almost monastic in its mentality, seeing depression as something like the monastic equivalent of akedia.

I did not have breakthroughs in psychotherapy until I worked with a therapist who got beyond the usual Cognitive Behavioral Therapy approaches. In my experience, that stuff is superficial. My therapist even saw it as counterproductive for somebody that has more deeply seated problems. She tended to favor an eclectic humanistic approach and an approach called bioneuropsychology, focused on mindfulness informed by neurology.

I take medication to help mitigate my depression and anxiety, which largely means that I can get out of bed and don't feel utterly destroyed most days; but it doesn't "fix" everything. I will be talking with a therapist sometime in the near future, I've been on a waiting list for several months, because the local clinic has been transitioning patients from one therapist who is moving to a new incoming therapist.

In Chinese medicine, depression is understood as having its origins typically in repressed emotions, literally your body fighting itself internally- often the heart, the seat of the spirit, can be involved. Overthinking stuff isn't considered healthy, either, it's like a kind of pollution of the heart. Once that happens, it effects your emotional regulation and emotions that should be expressed aren't. I used to take a Chinese remedy called Xiao Yiao Wan. I don't need anything that potent now days. I have no clue how it works in western medical terms, but it does. I used to deal with dysthymia and negative thinking all the time.

I also know that making it to church does help. I can feel it when I have missed church for too long, it's like an aching in my soul (if that makes any sense).

I think its important. We tend to think of it as an obligation or a chore instead of an opportunity just to do the ordinary things that make us human.
 
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Sérgio Junior

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Is there anything to say? Sorry about the very, very broad topic here.
I will say something that has already been said here in the OP, that is, the Lutherans will said that the person shoud "seek help with trained psychologists and psychiatrists."

I once asked my current pastor "what advice he would give to a person with depression?" and he told me: "First, this person need to seek help from a doctor. God provided medicines that help improve the brain's chemical performance and, on the other hand God can help you to find the mission of your life!" This is the common approach of our Lutheran churches here in my country.

I was diagnosed with depression in 2014, but since 2012 I was suffering from the characteristic symptoms of depression. When these symptoms arose, I didn't seek medical help, because at that time I didn't know much about depression and others mental disorders, I was part of a non-denominational church, and when I asked for advice from pastors of that church, they said I had to pray and fasting, they also said that I needed to be reconciled to God "Accepting Jesus truly", because only then would God heal me, I did everthing they recommended to me do, they saw the depression as a "kind of devil" and so I was often exorcised, but none of that worked, on the contrary, every day I got worse, suicidal thoughts became more frequent. But, in 2014, I did seek help from two pastors (a Presbyterian and a Lutheran), they advised me to go in search of one Psychiatrist. That same year (2014) I went to a psychiatrist and then to a psychologist and received the diagnosis of depression, as I said at the beginning of this paragraph. I'm on treatment until today and I can't say "I'm very well", but I'm much better than before.
 
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FireDragon76

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Sometimes people overspiritualize or over-psychologize their problems, too. I used to have alot of fatigue and low mood and something like cognitive decline (I forgot everything) even after all the therapy and acupuncture, until a doctor ran a thorough series of tests and found I had vitamin D deficiency.

Another thing to watch out for are minerals like magnesium. Most peoples diets don't have enough of it, and if you don't get enough, your brain won't work right. The same is true with B-12, some people don't absorb it well at all, and if you don't get it, you'll feel like crap mentally and won't be able to think well at all. In severe cases it can even cause nerve damage.
 
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Sérgio Junior

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Sometimes people overspiritualize or over-psychologize their problems, too. I used to have alot of fatigue and low mood and something like cognitive decline (I forgot everything) even after all the therapy and acupuncture, until a doctor ran a thorough series of tests and found I had vitamin D deficiency.

Another thing to watch out for are minerals like magnesium. Most peoples diets don't have enough of it, and if you don't get enough, your brain won't work right. The same is true with B-12, some people don't absorb it well at all, and if you don't get it, you'll feel like crap mentally and won't be able to think well at all.
I also used to spiritualize the symptoms and problems, especially before their being diagnosed.
 
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FireDragon76

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I also used to spiritualize the symptoms and problems, especially before their being diagnosed.

My doctor gave me these Vitamin D pills to take every week and it was like flipping a light switch. I thought because I lived in Florida and went out in the sun sometimes I could not be deficient, but that isn't the case necessarily. So there are alot of ordinary things that can cause depression that people don't always consider.
 
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Sérgio Junior

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My doctor gave me these Vitamin D pills to take every week and it was like flipping a light switch. I thought because I lived in Florida and went out in the sun sometimes I could not be deficient, but that isn't the case necessarily. So there are alot of ordinary things that can cause depression that people don't always consider.
True, lack of some vitamins can lead to depression, some vitamins are essential in the production of serotonin, but as you said, the people don't always consider. Maybe because vitamin deficiency may not be the first thing anyone thinks about when considering the causes of depression.
 
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archer75

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Sometimes people overspiritualize or over-psychologize their problems, too. I used to have alot of fatigue and low mood and something like cognitive decline (I forgot everything) even after all the therapy and acupuncture, until a doctor ran a thorough series of tests and found I had vitamin D deficiency.

Another thing to watch out for are minerals like magnesium. Most peoples diets don't have enough of it, and if you don't get enough, your brain won't work right. The same is true with B-12, some people don't absorb it well at all, and if you don't get it, you'll feel like crap mentally and won't be able to think well at all. In severe cases it can even cause nerve damage.
I have a normal diet, or reasonably normal. I have had tests for the various possible deficiencies and was ok except for D, for which I take a supplement.

I have been treated for depression for (literally) decades now, in various ways, by various people, and I asked here because my own confession tends to tell people either to go to a doctor (quite reasonable, but I already have done so countless times) or to seek spiritual counsel to get at the riches of EO..."spiritual psychology" but I have had trouble accessing any of that. "Ask your priest" is the order of the day, and again, I see why, but I have had difficulty making myself understood or getting more than a very hesitant reply. I suppose my difficulties are not to be taken from me and I should just go on but I thought I would explain myself a bit.
 
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FireDragon76

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I have a normal diet, or reasonably normal. I have had tests for the various possible deficiencies and was ok except for D, for which I take a supplement.

I have been treated for depression for (literally) decades now, in various ways, by various people, and I asked here because my own confession tends to tell people either to go to a doctor (quite reasonable, but I already have done so countless times) or to seek spiritual counsel to get at the riches of EO..."spiritual psychology" but I have had trouble accessing any of that. "Ask your priest" is the order of the day, and again, I see why, but I have had difficulty making myself understood or getting more than a very hesitant reply. I suppose my difficulties are not to be taken from me and I should just go on but I thought I would explain myself a bit.

Has your priest talked about praying the Jesus Prayer? Some kind of mindfulness practice is very helpful for depression, in my experience, its one thing I remember reading in one of the books my therapist gave me years ago. My own church has a class on contemplative prayer that we are working through. Also, using a prayer rope or prayer beads provides kinesthetic feedback that can be useful for grounding oneself and staying present.

This book might be worth looking into. It was suggested to me by my therapist years ago. It's about one of the approaches she used. Dr. Daniel Siegel has a background in Zen meditation, but the approach is really not religious in nature:

https://www.amazon.com/Mindsight-New-Science-Personal-Transformation/dp/0553386395


What has helped me really as a Lutheran, frankly, is getting the idea of a Last Judgement out of my head, and to focus instead on Jesus accepting me now (after all, living in the present is so much easier). It made me more than a little scrupulous, to be honest, to focus on whether my good works were good enough, and it puts Jesus is the wrong position spiritually. To be frank, that was not a helpful part of Orthodox spirituality for me, and it's one area I am glad is not emphasized in Lutheranism. If you have any kind of mental problem, Orthodox spirituality needs to be handled with care.
 
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archer75

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Has your priest talked about praying the Jesus Prayer? Some kind of mindfulness practice is very helpful for depression, in my experience, its one thing I remember reading in one of the books my therapist gave me years ago. My own church has a class on contemplative prayer that we are working through. Also, using a prayer rope or prayer beads provides kinesthetic feedback that can be useful for grounding oneself and staying present.

This book might be worth looking into. It was suggested to me by my therapist years ago. It's about one of the approaches she used. Dr. Daniel Siegel has a background in Zen meditation, but the approach is really not religious in nature:

https://www.amazon.com/Mindsight-New-Science-Personal-Transformation/dp/0553386395


What has helped me really as a Lutheran, frankly, is getting the idea of a Last Judgement out of my head, and to focus instead on Jesus accepting me now (after all, living in the present is so much easier). It made me more than a little scrupulous, to be honest, to focus on whether my good works were good enough, and it puts Jesus is the wrong position spiritually. To be frank, that was not a helpful part of Orthodox spirituality for me, and it's one area I am glad is not emphasized in Lutheranism. If you have any kind of mental problem, Orthodox spirituality needs to be handled with care.
I do use the Jesus Prayer and silent prayer at my SF's recommendation. My prayer practice does help me, I believe, but the help seems limited.

I know we all (not only Orthodox) talk about bearing the Cross. But still. It seems it just gets harder and harder. And not like the kind of harder because you think about it too much...but like, stretched to the breaking point. Anyway, I suppose this is too much for a thread on this subforum. Thanks to all, though, for your contributions...

I never even worry about the Last Judgment. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.". Words of the Lord that are easy for me to accept.
 
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I've battled periodic depression here and there, as my husband did before he met me, but I always know the root cause in each case. It's not always the same cause each time.

Lutherans don't have an overly dogmatic approach to this, which is good. Some churches over-spiritualize, as mentioned here, while the secular would be more likely to over-conceptualize or else over-medicize (is that a word? lol). But people have to come to terms with why they're depressed. There's no universal cause.

In my recent cases, it was over being a less-preferred "Brain Type," insecurity over not meeting the criteria for legalistic so-called "Biblical womanhood" or femininity, and having a sin problem that is much less common to women than it is to men (visual lust toward the opposite sex). I'd also think low thyroid was at least partly to blame during one period where my thyroid levels were indeed found to be low (my most recent test indicates they're back to normal thanks to levo, and I'm indeed noticing a more level mood lately compared to prior months).
 
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