Cuddles333

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The Koine Greek word (mistranslated as 'lust' into the English language) is epithumeo and means to desire to have or own

What so many Bible translators have tried to get the unsuspecting readers to think is that the Koine word orexis is the word used in Mt. 5:28 . It is not. This word means: excitement of the mind. It is found in Romans 1:27.

The reason that the subject of adultery is brought up in Mt. 5:28 is because girls were married at 16-18 yrs. of age in that time and culture so the chance was very great that that either one or both already had a spouse.
 
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devin553344

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Well it would seem that is NOT the "lust" Jesus the Christ is warning about.

SINCE IN THE CASE OF THAT LUST THERE IS ADULTERY.
(According to Matthew 5:28.)

What do you think?

Yeah that does sound like a good idea, define which lust is adultery so the term is not misused.
 
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devin553344

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The Koine Greek word (mistranslated as 'lust' into the English language) is epithumeo and means to desire to have or own

What so many Bible translators have tried to get the unsuspecting readers to think is that the Koine word orexis is the word used in Mt. 5:28 . It is not. This word means: excitement of the mind. It is found in Romans 1:27.

The reason that the subject of adultery is brought up in Mt. 5:28 is because girls were married at 16-18 yrs. of age in that time and culture so the chance was very great that that either one or both already had a spouse.

Yea that sounds like sin, already being married and wanting to have or own another. Which is the reason I feel paligamy is evil.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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The Koine Greek word (mistranslated as 'lust' into the English language) is epithumeo and means to desire to have or own

What so many Bible translators have tried to get the unsuspecting readers to think is that the Koine word orexis is the word used in Mt. 5:28 . It is not. This word means: excitement of the mind. It is found in Romans 1:27.

The reason that the subject of adultery is brought up in Mt. 5:28 is because girls were married at 16-18 yrs. of age in that time and culture so the chance was very great that that either one or both already had a spouse.
Just curious. "One or both" of what?
(Those having sex outside of marriage?)
The "whosoever"s of Matthew 5:28?
 
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dreadnought

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The best interpretation of "...lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart," is that "in his heart" means PASSIONATELY, whole-heartedly. That there has already been adultery (like Jesus says), and that done in a very passionate, heart-full manner.
What is being pointed to is not just some passing fancy, and certainly NOT THE MERE THOUGHT that some woman looks "interesting."

Mt. 5:28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

In contrast to "Thou shalt not commit adultery" Jesus the Christ is saying, if you look upon a woman to lust after her, that is indication you have already sinned.
The "lust" here is the same word that is used for "covet," the possessing of the object desired. ACTUAL ADULTERY. Not merely finding someone looks desirable.

The attraction of a man for a woman (and vice versa) is God-ordained and God created.
Find the other sex pleasing to the eyes and all that, yet NEVER HAVE THE LUST OF ACTUAL ADULTEROUS SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.

The lust that means one has already committed adultery, that is what is to be avoided, the "lust" that is part and parcel of actual adultery, its heart part.
DO NOT ever want to possess someone whom one is not married to with so much "heart" that the lust is indistinguishable from sexual intercourse. Don't let it happen, or the "lust" is adultery (or fornication).
There are certain areas of people's bodies we aren't supposed to look at or think about.
 
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dreadnought

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You mean the more shunned parts that God has exalted?
I don’t think “exalted” is the word. Here is what Paul said:

[21] The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
[22] On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable,
[23] and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
[24] which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part,
[25] that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 1 Cor 12:21-25 RSV
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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I don’t think “exalted” is the word. Here is what Paul said:

[21] The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
[22] On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable,
[23] and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
[24] which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part,
[25] that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 1 Cor 12:21-25 RSV
I think the King James makes more sense:
24. "For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked:"
I do think "exhalted" is the correct word - "more abundant honor."
TO THE UNCOMELY PARTS.

Somewhere in this does it say what you say, "There are certain areas of people's bodies we aren't supposed to look at or think about."?

And precisely what are these certain forbidden to think about or look at areas?
 
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dreadnought

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I think the King James makes more sense:
24. "For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked:"
I do think "exhalted" is the correct word - "more abundant honor."
TO THE UNCOMELY PARTS.

Somewhere in this does it say what you say, "There are certain areas of people's bodies we aren't supposed to look at or think about."?

And precisely what are these certain forbidden to think about or look at areas?
Paul is using the human body to explain that no one person, in the body of Christ, is more important than any other person. I hope no one twists this analogy into believing adultery is okay.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Paul is using the human body to explain that no one person, in the body of Christ, is more important than any other person. I hope no one twists this analogy into believing adultery is okay.
I hope so too, but it does not appear to have anything to do with it.

You're not answering my question about clarification re parts to be not seen or even thought about? Is that in Scripture anywhere?
 
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dreadnought

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I hope so too, but it does not appear to have anything to do with it.

You're not answering my question about clarification re parts to be not seen or even thought about? Is that in Scripture anywhere?
I can't remember the question. But everyone knows what lust is, and redefining the word isn't going to change anything.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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I can't remember the question. But everyone knows what lust is, and redefining the word isn't going to change anything.
It seems Jesus redefined the word.

And it may or may not have changed much - I think it rather confused a lot of people, led them to CONFUSE MERE THOUGHT WITH ACTUAL ACTION.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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You can't commit adultery until you have done so, that scripture is warning that your headlong falling into sin. I don't interpret it as sinning by lusting.

If the only thing keeping a person from committing that sin is inability, either by means or by determination, then there is no difference, except that the person doing the lusting is either unable to attract the desired object, or too chicken to try. There's no virtue in it. If the only thing keeping a man from stealing something is his fear of the law, then he is not only a thief, but a coward, also. There is, however, a commandment against coveting, which is exactly what you're doing if you lust after what is not yours.

The OP is interesting to watch, progressing semi-logically from one thread to another. In another thread, I believe he said, that sexual perversion is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and unpardonable. Naturally, the more easily accessible sin of lust would probably make him unforgivable. Not wanting that, he had to make this argument as a matter of necessity. Fortunately, the text is clear, and anyone who actually reads the Bible can find the truth.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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There is, however, a commandment against coveting, which is exactly what you're doing if you lust after what is not yours.

That seems very true, especially considering the word that gets translated as "lust" in Matthew 5:28 is the same as that used in the Commandment against coveting.

Some like to think the "lust" is perhaps only the "desire of the eyes," suggested by "looketh upon a woman," but probably it is not that given the way Jesus defines it.

So the way he approaches it, there is actual adultery (sexual intercourse) involved, the fruition of DESIRE TO POSSESS, to own, to have totally for one's own, another's body.
 
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AFrazier

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The best interpretation of "...lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart," is that "in his heart" means PASSIONATELY, whole-heartedly. That there has already been adultery (like Jesus says), and that done in a very passionate, heart-full manner.
What is being pointed to is not just some passing fancy, and certainly NOT THE MERE THOUGHT that some woman looks "interesting."

Mt. 5:28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

In contrast to "Thou shalt not commit adultery" Jesus the Christ is saying, if you look upon a woman to lust after her, that is indication you have already sinned.
The "lust" here is the same word that is used for "covet," the possessing of the object desired. ACTUAL ADULTERY. Not merely finding someone looks desirable.

The attraction of a man for a woman (and vice versa) is God-ordained and God created.
Find the other sex pleasing to the eyes and all that, yet NEVER HAVE THE LUST OF ACTUAL ADULTEROUS SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.

The lust that means one has already committed adultery, that is what is to be avoided, the "lust" that is part and parcel of actual adultery, its heart part.
DO NOT ever want to possess someone whom one is not married to with so much "heart" that the lust is indistinguishable from sexual intercourse. Don't let it happen, or the "lust" is adultery (or fornication).
A segment from my book concerning this point:

-----------------

The Salvation Enigma, pp. 92-95.

Concerning the adultery and lust issue, the confusion is even more severe. The common understanding of this passage leans towards sexual immorality of the mind, and has become an enormous stumbling block, especially for young men. Going back to my earliest days as a Christian, I remember being sixteen or seventeen years old. And for me and my friend, our understanding, as it was taught to us, was that we were committing adultery if the right girl in the right clothes made us think about sex for even the most fleeting of moments. I remember sharing the gospel at the Ft. Lauderdale beach with the youth group, and my friend and I spent the better part of the day making the joke, “I don’t see her. Or her. Or her,” as we’d hold our hands up to our eyes to block the view of young women in scant bikinis.

Although we should not seek to deliberately indulge such appetites, and should certainly strive to dwell on more appropriate thoughts, this common interpretation is about as far from what Christ meant as a thing could be.[1]

To understand what he’s saying here, there are a few things that need to be understood. Jesus’ statement is loaded with implicit colloquialisms, masked by language barriers and two thousand years of cultural evolution. I may have to explain it to you, but he didn’t need to explain it to them. They understood exactly what he meant.

First and foremost, the context is adultery, not random sexual desire. This context doesn’t change after the initial statement, but is defined by it. While Christ may be elaborating on what constitutes culpability, he is still nevertheless talking about adultery. And adultery, to those listening to him speak, was the crime of a man taking another man’s wife. Due to the polygamist culture of first century Judaism, the man’s marital status was immaterial to the scenario.[2] A married man who took another woman simply had an extra wife. But if the man took a woman who was already married, then it was the crime of adultery, whether due to the woman’s lack of fidelity, or the man’s presumptuousness in taking what belonged to his neighbor. Either way, the woman in the scenario had to be married for adultery to occur, while for the man it didn’t matter. It is only in our Romanized perspective of monogamy that a cheating husband is considered an adulterer.

The second point is the use and interpretation of the word “lust.” By definition, this English word merely refers to desire, and if the passage is interpreted according to that definition, the translation is accurate, if weak. The problem is that “lust” carries with it the connotation of sexual desire in our own usage, causing most to mistakenly interpret this as a crime of mental fornication, which is unilaterally applied to any and all women, regardless of whether they are married or not. You see her, like her, are sexually attracted to her … you’ve had sex with her in your heart, which constitutes adultery by the strict interpretive understanding of the passage. However, the Greek word ἐπιθυμέω, from which “lust” has been translated, is also used by Paul in Romans 13:9 when listing the Ten Commandments, saying, “Thou shalt not covet (ἐπιθυμέω),” whereas his intent to portray sexual desire or passion employs the word πυρόω in 1 Corinthians 7:9. Better to marry than to burn (πυρόω).

What Jesus is associating with adultery here is the “coveting” of your neighbor’s wife. And covetousness is not necessarily sexual. Nor is it merely “to want” or “to desire” in the basest form. We all “want” things. That is the foundation of trade and commerce. Supply and demand. You “want,” and someone else “provides.” This is basic economics. I grow corn. You grow oranges. I “want” your oranges, and so we trade. I have not “coveted” my neighbor’s oranges.

For “you shall not covet” to be fulfilled by “love your neighbor as yourself,” as Paul says that it is, covetousness must, by necessity, affect your neighbor.[3] And if it affects your neighbor, then it must have an outward manifestation that can be quantified. Love for your neighbor would have no bearing on the sin otherwise. The desires in our hearts and the thoughts in our heads do no ill until we choose to act upon them. So, to covet is not merely “to want,” which your neighbor will never know or suffer by, but to want something to such a degree that we attempt to obtain it, which does harm them. Thus, to set your sights upon another man’s wife to “covet” her is to seek to obtain her.

Ergo, what Jesus is saying concerning adultery is that while the law says, “you shall not commit adultery,” if you try to take her, the attempt makes you just as guilty. The effort is equal to the act, whether you succeed or not. Thus, it’s not the surreptitious look or the sexual thought that’s the problem, but the witty joke or inappropriate touch with the motive of eliciting a reciprocated attraction. In other words, it has nothing to do with them inadvertently attracting your attention, but about you deliberately attracting theirs to win their affection. That is what it is to covet your neighbor’s spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend.

To reiterate, it is not my intent to suggest that it is okay for us to seek out or dwell on carnal things. All I’m saying is that that’s not what Christ is saying here. He’s telling us that to try to take someone’s wife — or husband, boyfriend, or girlfriend — is the same as actually doing so.

[1]. 2 Cor. 10:5; Phil. 4:8.

[2]. Matt. 5:27; Joseph. AJ 17.14, 20.259-267; Justin 1 Apol. 134. Josephus, writing during the reign of Domitian, confirms the continued and accepted practice amongst the Jews to have multiple wives. Justin Martyr confirms that this continued to be the case.

[3]. Rom. 3:8-10.
 
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discipler7

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What Jesus is associating with adultery here is the “coveting” of your neighbor’s wife. ...
He’s telling us that to try to take someone’s wife — or husband, boyfriend, or girlfriend — is the same as actually doing so.
Not quite true.
.
Definition of adultery
plural adulteries
: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than that person's current spouse or partner; also : an act of adultery
Definition of ADULTERY
 
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AFrazier

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Not quite true.
.
Definition of adultery
plural adulteries
: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than that person's current spouse or partner; also : an act of adultery
Definition of ADULTERY
Did you even read what I posted? Or is this a knee-jerk reaction? Go read it, and then get back to me. First century Jewish adultery was between a man and a married woman. The marital status of the man was irrelevant in their polygamist culture.
 
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discipler7

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First century Jewish adultery was between a man and a married woman. The marital status of the man was irrelevant in their polygamist culture.
.
A husband who commits adultery with a young unmarried woman will also be hurting his own wife, and vice versa for a wife who commits adultery with a young unmarried man. Are you saying that in such cases, God's command, "You shall not commit adultery" at EXODUS.20:14 did not apply to First century Jews.?
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Did you even read what I posted? Or is this a knee-jerk reaction? Go read it, and then get back to me. First century Jewish adultery was between a man and a married woman. The marital status of the man was irrelevant in their polygamist culture.
That raises an interesting question: is it perhaps how THE REVELATION OF SCRIPTURE works (for inspiration), IN ACCORD WITH PREVAILING UNDERSTANDINGS?

I.e., SPIRIT MOVES that way, with the influence of culture.

OR, is there only any truth in understanding something in exactly the same way as the First Century did?
 
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AFrazier

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A husband who commits adultery with a young unmarried woman will also be hurting his own wife, and vice versa for a wife who commits adultery with a young unmarried man. Are you saying that in such cases, God's command, "You shall not commit adultery" at EXODUS.20:14 did not apply to First century Jews.?
Let me ask you again ... did you read what I posted? Sounds to me like you are trying to apply modern understandings to an ancient situation.

In first century Jewish culture, a woman had one husband. Once she was married, she was in adultery if she was with another man.
But men had multiple wives. A married man who took another woman simply had a new wife in addition to the old one.

For adultery to occur in the first century Jewish culture, a man had to be with another man's wife.
 
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