lismore said:
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and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
(
Luke 21:24)
Hello All, do you have any comment on this verse?
When are the times of the Gentile fulfilled?
TribulationSigns said:
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Contrary to some people who posted here,
Luke 21:24 is not talking about the physical city of Jerusalem in the Middle East in 70AD, or even today as some premillennialists believe. Rather, Jesus Christ was talking about Jerusalem of the New Testament Congregation, the body of Elect, the church. Therefore, the "Gentiles" Christ talked about here are the non-Israelities. The unbeleivers. For example:
LittleLambofJesus said:
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So Jesus wasn't talking about a literal Temple and City in the Olivet Discourse?
TribulationSigns said:
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Christ came to the City of Jerusalem (which was
His people), and
they rejected him as their
foundation stone of the city and sanctuary. As a result, by their rejection, they themselves did destroy both city and sanctuary. Nevertheless, Christ
has become the headstone of
another building. The kingdom representation was taken from Jews and given to another.
In Matthew 21:40-45, Jesus tells a strikingly different tale than you do about WHO did the destroying at the taking of the Kingdom from the Jews and giving to another.
Not only that but He also tells a different tale than you do about what event that was. Namely, “The coming of the lord of the vineyard”.
When faced with which of these opposite tales to believe, yours, or that of Christ Jesus, my money is on The Son of God.
TribulationSigns said:
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If you believe Christ was talking about someone who physically took "kingdom" from the Jews, then who did the destroyer gave the kingdom to? Humm?
mkgal1 said:
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Then how do YOU interpret
Matthew 21:40-45?
John 11:48 Then the Roman army will come and destroy both our Temple and our nation.”
LittleLambofJesus said:
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The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.
and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.
Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place
suddenly ; thus, not only fulfilling the predictions of our LORD, that these calamities should come, like the swift-darting lightning" that cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the West," and " as a
snare on all of them (the Jews) who dwelt upon the face of the whole earth " (Matt. xxiv. 27, and Luke xxi 35,) but justifying, also, his friendly direction, that those who fled from the place should use the utmost possible expedition.
mkgal1 said:
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.....and thank you for bringing this up - that the day Titus encompassed Jerusalem was the feast of the Passover.
Your welcome.
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The tumult and disorder which ensued upon this event, it is impossible (says Josephus) for language to describe.
The lamentations from the city wore re-echoed from the adjacent mountains, and places beyond Jordan. The flames which enveloped the Temple were so violent and impetuous, that the lofty hill. on which it stood appeared, even front its deep foundations,
as one large body of fire.
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The tumult and disorder which ensued upon this event, it is impossible (says Josephus) for language to describe.
===============
I just now saw this.
Josephus actually uses the same word used in Luke 21:9 concerning the pending 70ad destruction of Jerusalem! "TULMULT"
I will have to do a deeper study on this.........
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Mark 13:7
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing
battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>
================================
Used in only 5 verses of the NT.......3 of those by Paul, traveling companion and physician of Luke, and 1 by James...........
181. akatastasia from 182;
instability, i.e. disorder:--commotion, confusion, tumult.
G181 ἀκαταστασία (
akatastasia) occurs 5 times in 5 verses
Luk 21:9
and when ye may hear of wars and
uprisings, be not terrified, for it behoveth these things to happen first, but the end
is not immediately.'
1Co 14:33
for God is not
a God of
tumult, but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.
2Co 6:5
in stripes, in imprisonments, in
insurrections, in labours, in watchings, in fastings,
2Co 12:20
for I fear lest, having come, not such as I wish I may find you, and I -- I may be found by you such as ye do not wish, lest there be strifes, envyings, wraths, revelries, evil-speakings, whisperings, puffings up,
insurrections,
Jas 3:16
for where zeal and rivalry
are, there is
insurrection and every evil matter;
=======================================
Luke 21:9 Commentaries: biblehub
Pulpit Commentary
Verses 9, 10. - Wars and commotions... nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. Josephus the Jewish, and Tacitus the Roman, historian - the former in his 'Jewish Wars,' and the latter in his 'Annals' - describe the period which immediately followed the Crucifixion as full of wars, crimes, violences, earthquakes. "It was a time," says Tacitus, "rich in disasters, horrible with battles, torn with seditions, savage even in peace itself."
======================
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
9. wars and commotions] The best comment on the primary fulfilment of this Discourse is the Jewish War of Josephus, and the Annals and History of Tacitus (Ann. xii. 38, xv. 22, xvi. 13), whose narrative is full of earthquakes, wars, crimes, violences and pollutions, and who describes the period which he is narrating as one which was “rich in calamities, horrible with battles, rent with seditions, savage even in peace itself.”
The main difficulties of our Lord’s Prophecy vanish when we bear in mind (i) that Prophecy is like a landscape in which time and space are subordinated to eternal relations, and in which events look like hills seen chain behind chain which to the distant spectator appear as one; and (ii) that in the necessarily condensed and varying reports of the Evangelists, sometimes the primary fulfilment (which is shewn most decisively and irrefragably by
Luke 21:32 to be the Fall of Jerusalem), sometimes the ultimate fulfilment is predominant. The Fall of Jerusalem was the Close of that Aeon and a symbol of the Final End (telos). This appears most clearly in the report of St Luke.
commotions] akatastasias, conditions of instability and rottenness, the opposite to peace.
1 Corinthians 14:33;
James 3:16. Such commotions were the massacre of 20,000 Jews in their fight with the Gentiles at Caesarea; the assassinations or suicides of Nero, Galba, Otho, and Vitellius; the civil wars, &c.
be not terrified] The Greek word is the exact equivalent of our English word ‘be not scared,’
Luke 24:37;
1 Peter 3:6;
Proverbs 3:25.
but the end is not by and by] Rather, but not immediately is the end. For ‘by and by’ see
Luke 17:7;
Matthew 13:21;
Mark 6:25. The words are most important as a warning against the same eschatological excitement which St Paul discourages in 2 Thess. (“The end is not yet,”
Matthew 24:6;
Mark 13:7.) The things which ‘must first come to pass’ before the final end were (1) physical disturbances—which so often synchronise with historic crises, as Niebuhr has observed; (2) persecutions; (3) apostasy; (4) wide evangelisation; (5) universal troubles of war, &c. They were the “beginning of birth-throes” (
Matthew 24:8); what the Jews called the “birth-pangs of the Messiah.”
=====================
Bengel's Gnomen
Luke 21:9. Πολέμους, wars) amongst equals.—ἀκαταστασίας, [Engl. Vers. ‘commotions’] seditions) of inferiors against superiors, and intestine divisions, whereby the κατάστασις, established constitution, of states is swept away. These are the preludes of further wars.
It is in this chapter especially that Luke presents to us the words of the Lord in language varied from that in which Matthew and Mark record them:
Luke 21:15 [“I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay;” comp. with
Mark 13:11, “Take no thought before-hand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate; but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.” Comp. also,
Matthew 10:19], 20, etc.[221] So also, instead of wars and rumours of wars in Matthew [
Luke 24:6] and Mark [
Luke 13:7], Luke says here, wars and seditions.
[221] “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Comp. with
Mark 13:14, “When ye shall see the, abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel, standing where it ought not” (in
Matthew 24:15, “stand in the holy place”); the phrases in Mark being altered from their Jewish form by Luke, into one more intelligible to the Gentiles for whom he wrote.—E. and T.
===========================
https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM
CAST OF CHARACTERS:
Roman: Emperor Nero |
General Vespasian |
General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus |
Factional Leaders in Jerusalem ||
Administrators of Roman Judea Targets:
Jerusalem |
Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline
CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR
Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
===============
Numerous signs, prodigies, and portents are seen in the land of Judaea at the outset of the rebellion. Included in those recorded by Josephus, armed hosts and
chariots in the clouds are seen flying over all the land of Judaea; a light at night makes the temple appear as though it were on fire; Halley's Comet, in the appearance of a sword, flies over the region. NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory says that the closest approach of the comet that year was in March, immediately prior to the revolt.
Christians seem to have associated this period with the warnings and admonitions of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24, because after the withdrawal of Gallus and the Battle of Beth-horon, a great number of people flee the city of Jerusalem, led by the Mother Church, which headed east over the Jordan River to safety in the area of Pella, Jordan. Early Christian settlements sprung up all over the Roman Decapolis Scythopolis [Bet She'an], Hippos [Susieh], Gadara [
Umm Qais], Pella [
Tabaqat Fahl], Philadelphia [Amman], Gerasa [Jerash], Dion [Adun], Kanatha [Kanawat], Damascus, and Raphana [Abila] . Today this region is within the Kingdom of Jordan and the Golan Heights. During the flight out of Palestine, a number of documents were apparently hidden in the Dead Sea area along the route -- DSS Caves 4 and 7-10 are of particular interest
==============================