Lucifer in Isaiah 14 can't be anyone else but Satan...

[he-man]

Chapter 12 and chapter 19 are not even talking about the same battle, not are they in the same location. Michael isn't Jesus.

Huh???
Answer: Michael and his angels (ho Michaēl kai hoi aggeloi autou). The nominative here may be in apposition with polemos, but it is an abnormal construction with no verb, though egeneto (arose) can be understood as repeated. Michael is the champion of the Jewish people (Dan 10:13, Dan 10:21; Dan 12:1) and is called the archangel in Jud 1:9. [RWP]
And the Lamb shall overcome them (kai to arnion nikēsei autous). Future active of nikaō. This is the glorious outcome, victory by the Lamb over the coalition of kings as against the beast before. [RWP] For he is Lord of lords and King of kings (hoti Kurios kuriōn estin kai Basileus basileōn). The same words are again descriptive of Christ in Rev 19:16 [RWP]
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Answer: Michael and his angels (ho Michaēl kai hoi aggeloi autou). Dan 12:1 and is called the archangel in Jud 1:9. [RWP]
The Time of the End
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
The Rider on a White Horse
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

 

[he-man]

Michael is not the king of kings. It says the Lamb is, not Michael. Michael is merely an archangel, beneath the authority of the Lamb who is God.

Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Answer: Michael and his angels (ho Michaēl kai hoi aggeloi autou). The nominative here may be in apposition with polemos, but it is an abnormal construction with no verb, though egeneto (arose) can be understood as repeated. Michael is the champion of the Jewish people (Dan 10:13, Dan 10:21; Dan 12:1) and is called the archangel in Jud 1:9. [RWP]
And the Lamb shall overcome them (kai to arnion nikēsei autous). Future active of nikaō. This is the glorious outcome, victory by the Lamb over the coalition of kings as against the beast before. [RWP]
For he is Lord of lords and King of kings (hoti Kurios kuriōn estin kai Basileus basileōn). The same words are again descriptive of Christ in Rev 19:16 [RWP]
The Time of the End
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
The Rider on a White Horse
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

 

[StevenBelievin]

Micheal is the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2:7. When he stands up it is in order to allow the Antichrist to come to power. Right now the AC is being restrained by Michael. You are making assumptions that are not in the text. You are jumping from Rev 12 to Rev 13 and then to Rev 19 and then trying to cram Michael into the place of Jesus. I have never heard anyone try to say that Jesus is the angel Michael. Angels are created beings. Jesus always existed along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not convinced that this one verse should be used as a proof text that angels are men. Angels are spiritual and have no physical bodies of flesh as we do.

That's not true.

To say he's a man would mean he shares all the same attributes as a man (mental, spiritual, physical). It would seem to me that Daniel 9:21 connotes Gabriel as being male or masculine instead of feminine or some kind of in between.

An angelic man and a human man look very similar, so much that you can't tell the difference. But angels are not human, don't age or die or get sick like humans do. They are men and this scripture does in fact prove it.

 

[ewq1938]

This is off topic to the thread so please don't post it anymore. Make a new thread if you want, this thread is about who Lucifer is.

Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Answer: Michael and his angels (ho Michaēl kai hoi aggeloi autou). The nominative here may be in apposition with polemos, but it is an abnormal construction with no verb, though egeneto (arose) can be understood as repeated. Michael is the champion of the Jewish people (Dan 10:13, Dan 10:21; Dan 12:1) and is called the archangel in Jud 1:9. [RWP]
And the Lamb shall overcome them (kai to arnion nikēsei autous). Future active of nikaō. This is the glorious outcome, victory by the Lamb over the coalition of kings as against the beast before. [RWP]
For he is Lord of lords and King of kings (hoti Kurios kuriōn estin kai Basileus basileōn). The same words are again descriptive of Christ in Rev 19:16 [RWP]
The Time of the End
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
The Rider on a White Horse
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

 

[StevenBelievin]

That's not true.



An angelic man and a human man look very similar, so much that you can't tell the difference. But angels are not human, don't age or die or get sick like humans do. They are men and this scripture does in fact prove it.

Okay, now that you say they are not human I believe that I might be able to be on board with it. In my mind (man = human and human = man), so to hear someone say angels are men, to me it sounds like they're saying angels are humans.

 

[ewq1938]

Okay, now that you say they are not human I believe that I might be able to be on board with it. In my mind (man = human and human = man), so to hear someone say angels are men, to me it sounds like they're saying angels are humans.

Understandable but this explains how an angel can be called a man

This all comes from that I believe Lucifer is Satan, but re is a verse that calls Lucifer a man and that was used to reject the idea that Lucifer was also an angel.

 

[StevenBelievin]

Understandable but this explains how an angel can be called a man

This all comes from that I believe Lucifer is Satan, but re is a verse that calls Lucifer a man and that was used to reject the idea that Lucifer was also an angel.

So you don't think the devil / lucifer is a fallen angel?

 

[ewq1938]

So you don't think the devil / lucifer is a fallen angel?

I do but some deny that Lucifer is the devil.

 

[StevenBelievin]

I do but some deny that Lucifer is the devil.

You should check out The Unseen Realm by Dr. Michael Heiser. He is undoubtedly an expert in Hebrew studies, and he covers all this stuff in his book. Check out Psalm 82:1.

God (elohim) standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods (elohim).

God has a divine counsel. Not because He needs one but He chose to have one.

He explains that the Hebrew word Elohim isn't necessarily referring to Yahwey.

 

[ewq1938]

You should check out The Unseen Realm by Dr. Michael Heiser. He is undoubtedly an expert in Hebrew studies, and he covers all this stuff in his book. Check out Psalm 82:1.

God (elohim) standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods (elohim).

God has a divine counsel. Not because He needs one but He chose to have one.

He explains that the Hebrew word Elohim isn't necessarily referring to Yahwey.

That's off topic to this discussion.

 

[StevenBelievin]

That's off topic to this discussion.

Not really. He deals with Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 in detail.

The king of Tyre and Babylon are compared to a certain Elohim (or angel if you prefer) who rebelled against Yahweh.

 

[ewq1938]

Not really. He deals with Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 in detail.

The king of Tyre and Babylon are compared to a certain Elohim (or angel if you prefer) who rebelled against Yahweh.

I didn't know that word is used. What verse?

 

[FrankDux]

What devil ?

Different from the regular Bible concordance study guide definitions here in this Strong's Listing ?

Strong's Hebrew: 8163. שָׂעִיר (sa'iyr) -- devil

 

[FrankDux]

Not really. He deals with Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 in detail.

The king of Tyre and Babylon are compared to a certain Elohim (or angel if you prefer) who rebelled against Yahweh.

That's interesting

are you familiar with the fact that the anointing oil for Kings was replaced with balsam after king Josiah's rampage against idolatry in Jerusalem ?

Iiirc, the markets of Tyre were the source of the finest balsam ( Ezekiel 27:17, for example )

Balsam is written of the in the Talmud as well, " In the messianic era, the righteous will bathe in 13 rivers of balsam " (TJ, Av. Zar. 3:1, 42c)

 

[StevenBelievin]

I didn't know that word is used. What verse?

You should check out Dr. Michael Heiser's The Unseen Realm. It's only $9.99 for the kindle edition..

Both Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are linked back to the serpent in Genesis 6. Plus the Hebrew word for serpent in Genesis can also mean diviner. The "serpent" gave Eve a divination saying that they surely would not die..

 

[ewq1938]

You should check out Dr. Michael Heiser's The Unseen Realm. It's only $9.99 for the kindle edition..

Both Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are linked back to the serpent in Genesis 6. Plus the Hebrew word for serpent in Genesis can also mean diviner. The "serpent" gave Eve a divination saying that they surely would not die..

Again, please provide the verse not something I would have to pay for.

 

[StevenBelievin]

Again, please provide the verse not something I would have to pay for.

The price is worth it..

 

[StevenBelievin]

The work thoroughly deals with many of the "problem" scriptures..

 

[StevenBelievin]

The figure to whom the king of Babylon is being compared is a divine being fallen "from heaven" He is called the "morning star, son of dawn." the language takes us back to Job 38:7 where the sons of God were called "morning stars." But the Hebrew terms in Isaiah 14:12 are different than those in Job 38:7. "Morning star, son of the dawn" is an English rendering of the Hebrew helel ben-shachar, which literally means "shining one, son of the dawn". That this "shining one" sought superiority over the others of the divine counsel is indicated by the phrase "raise...my throne" and his desire to "sit" on "the mountains of the assembly" speaks of the divine counsel is clear from it's location in "Zaphon" ("the north"; tsaphon) and the clouds. The "seat" language is familiar from Ezekiel 28:2 (the "seat of the Gods"). Isaiah 14 reads like an attempted coup in the divine council. Helel ben-shachar wanted his seat in the diving assembly on the divine mountain to be above all others. He wanted to be "like the Most High" (elyon). But there can be only one.