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Lucifer: Fallen Angel or Fallen King??

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Aeon, Jun 10, 2002.

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  1. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

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    The following post is a little something about the name lucifer, the only time its used in the bible. There is some speculation that the name makes reference to a babylonian king, and not satan. These are my thoughts. The discussion comes from here.

    http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13774



    The 14th chapter, 12th verse of the book of Isaiah makes reference to Lucifer, denoting him as Satan (the Devil), NOT to a king of Babylon. The name affixed, "Lucifer" to the devil, is all together appropriate. But indeed can be confused with the different appellations given to Christ. Whatever the names translation into english becomes, (Lucifer) and/or its relation to other names doesn't change to whom Isaiah made reference.
    Reference to satan becomes clear and completely obvious when the scripture is considered in its context and by its writer. Isaiah uses rich symbolism and literary styles throughout his book and among his proficies. Even rapidly changing his themes. One moment talking about contemporary enemies (Isaiah 9:4-5) and the next scripture prophesying about the messiah (Isa. 9:6-7). The first theme that I will approach mentioned in this chapter is that of the Restoration of Israel and the Millenium of peace. Or simply noted the second coming of Christ.
    The "King of Babylon" mentioned to whom the satyrical proverb is directed (isa. 14:4) is indeed Lucifer, or satan himself. Never in the history of the Jews or anytime of babylonian kings was a time when "the whole earth is a rest, and is quiet" in the which the people of Israel "break forth into singing"(Isa 14:7). Verses 1-3 along with verse 7 of the 14th chapter of the book of Isaiah make reference to Israel's restoration and millenium of peace. Which will not be complete until Lucifer is cast into hell and bound for 1,000 years. Revelations 20:1-2 says..."And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years." Verses 4-6 of Chapter 14 Isaiah talk about the destruction of satans power which won't be final until at Christ's coming when this prophecy is fulfilled and Christ manifests himself personally to the Jews. "What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." (Zechariah 13:6)
    The next theme addressed will be the actuality of Lucifer as a pre-mortally existent being, (Before Earth) being an angel of great authority cast out of the presence of God. But satan wasn't cast out alone. All those times refrences are made to "Devils" being cast out of people, especially the devils who knew Christ--"And behold, they cried out saying, what have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou son of God art thou come hither to torment us before the time? (Full story Matthew 8:28-33) --- The Devils know who God is --"Thou believest that there is one God, Thou doest well: The devils also believe and tremble."(james 2:19--for a reason. Because they were in His presence, BEFORE they rebelled. Furthermore Jesus affirms seeing Satan fall from heaven--"I beheld satan as lighting fall from heaven." (Luke 10:18) Two questions: What was satan doing in heaven? And, why would he fall like "lighting", unless his name, "Lucifer", carries the attribute of light? This scripture gives reference to Jesus being there in this Pre-Earth state. The same premortal estate that gave Jesus the authority to say this to the Jews--"Verily Verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58) Where was jesus before Abraham, the great patriarch of Israel, who suceeded Jesus by more than 2,000 years?? And when was the time that God made reference to knowing Jeremiah before he was born? "Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee..." (Jeremiah 1:5) Jesus was in the same place where our spirits will go--"and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclisiastes 12:7)
    Heaven, where Lucifer (Satans name as an angel before he was cast out)
    "the great dragon was cast out." (revelations 12:8-9) Once again he wasn't alone for he "drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth." (Rev 12:4) "And there was a war in Heaven: Michale and his angels fought agains the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was THEIR place found anymore in Heaven." (Revelations 12:7-8)
    The being, Lucifer, that "didst weaken the nations" (Isaiah 14:12) To whom "Hell beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming" when bound (Isaiah 14:9 - Revelations 20:1-2) and thrown into the bottomless pit, he will be greated by those who he led away into misery, when he arrives in hell, "all they shall speak unto thee, art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us?." (Isa 14:10) This being was in a sense the king of babylon--THE WORLD--the one who "made the earth to tremble, that did shake the kingdoms." (Isa 14:16) Whose dominion streched farther than that of any "babylonian king" in the middle east. This being wasn't any of the contemporary babylonian kings of Isaiah's time. Merodach-baladan was the king of babylon during Isaiah's time. He was even friends, you could say with Israel, being that he "sent letters and a present unto Hezekiah" the contemporary king of Israel. (2 kings 20:12) Here is also good reference that hezekiah and isaiah were contemporaries-- "then came Isaiah the prophet unto king Hezekiah." (2 kings 20:14) It's true that Tiglath-pileser III (2 kings 15:29), Shalamaneser V (2 kings 17:3) and Sargon (Isa 20:1) were earler assyrian kings but Merodach-baladan himself was the only one from babylon during this time, being the succesor of Sargon and assyria, trying to form an alliance with Israel.
    God asked Job "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?", "When the MORNING STARS sang together, and all the Sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4,7) It was here (before we were born into mortal bodies) when lucifer decided "I will exalt my throne ABOVE the stars of God. I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation." (Isa 14:13) Many details of Lucifers rebellion we don't have. But we can assume his ambitions expressed in Isaiah 14:13-14, were the same one that drove hinm and his followers to war against God.
    As expressed by the copious scripture references, Lucifer wasn't the only "Star of God". Neither was he the only "Son of the morning". But he is, in fact, Fallen. Him "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation" (Jude 1:6) didn't reach the "second estate" of recieving a mortal body on earth. Sure we have weaknesses, and satan surely has some advantage since he is unseen as a spirit, but THIS knowledge can give you power to crush his head. (Gen 3:15)
     
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  2. Emma

    Emma New Member

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    Personally, I've always taken the Isaiah reference to the Day Star as referring to a man, not Satan. My reasons for thinking this are:

    1) Isaiah says that the Day Star said: "I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God" (v13) yet Job has Satan already in heaven, acting as a servant of God performing temptations and whatnot on humans. If Satan was an angel, then he would not say he wanted to ascend to heaven, as he was already there.

    2) v16 says "Is this the man who made the earth tremble..." An angel is not a man.

    3) v18-19 says "All the kinds of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb; but you are cast out, away from your sepulchre" and verse 20 says "You will not be joined with them in burial, because you have destroyed your land, you have slain your people"
    If this reference is to Satan, how come he was evidently expected to be buried? Did Satan die? Are we talking about some kind of underworld king like Osiris here? Who were Satan's people? Where was his kingdom?

    Personally, looking at the context and the preceding verses from ch13 to 14:23, this seems to be all of a piece, a prophecy relating to the Babylonians, as the next section refers to the Assyrians, and the preceding one to Judah.

    Emma
     
  3. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

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    Well the name Lucifer is used in the KJV, which I should have said first. I have no clue if it is used in the RSV and for this purpose I posted these 20 verses so they can be analized in their context. if you can Emma post the RSV to be analized too.

    1 FOR the LORD will have mercy• on Jacob, and will yet choose• Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

    2 And the people• shall take them, and bring• them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives•, whose captives they were; and they shall drule over their oppressors.

    3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

    4 ¶ That thou shalt take up this proverb• against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden• city ceased!

    5 The LORD hath broken the staff• of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

    6 He who smote the people in wrath with a• continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

    7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

    8 Yea, the fir• trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid• down, no• feller is come up against us.

    9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead• for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

    10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

    11 Thy pomp is brought down to the• grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

    12 How art thou fallen• from heaven, O Lucifer•, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the dnations!

    13 For thou hast said in thine heart•, I• will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north•:

    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the amost• High.

    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

    16 They that see thee• shall narrowly• look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

    17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

    18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory•, every one in his• own house.

    19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an• abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the• stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

    20 Thou shalt not be joined• with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed• of evildoers shall never be renowned.
     
  4. debs

    debs Member

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    Some advise: dont get too deeply involved/curious about the demonic. set your mind on things above etc, etc,..with love in Christ, debs
     
  5. Emma

    Emma New Member

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    Here's the RSV rendering:

    Isaiah 14

    1 The LORD will have compassion on Jacob and will again choose Israel, and will set them in their own land, and aliens will join them and will cleave to the house of Jacob.

    2 And the peoples will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them in the LORD's land as male and female slaves; they will take captive those who were their captors, and rule over those who oppressed them.

    3 When the LORD has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve,

    4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: "How the oppressor has ceased, the insolent fury ceased!

    5 The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of rulers,

    6 that smote the peoples in wrath with unceasing blows, that ruled the nations in anger with unrelenting persecution.

    7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing.

    8 The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, 'Since you were laid low, no hewer comes up against us.'

    9 Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come, it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.

    10 All of them will speak and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!'

    11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are the bed beneath you, and worms are your covering.

    12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

    13 You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north;

    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.'

    15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit.

    16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms,

    17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?'

    18 All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb;

    19 but you are cast out, away from your sepulchre, like a loathed untimely birth, clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword, who go down to the stones of the Pit, like a dead body trodden under foot.

    20 You will not be joined with them in burial, because you have destroyed your land, you have slain your people. "May the descendants of evildoers nevermore be named!"

    ----

    For a really wierd and wacky interpretation of this, you won't find much stranger than that of www.geocities.com/true_christ/jesus.html - they reckon Jesus is the one spoken about by this passage. Though quite why, I can't figure out.

    Emma
     
  6. chagal was here

    chagal was here jack's raging bile

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    Lucifer is a Latin word - Not Hebrew,not Greek. It means "Day star" or "morning star"

    Curiously - the early Christians often used the name Lucifer as a title for Christ.
    in 2 Peter 1:19 - "And wehave the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts"
    - The context of that verse makes it clear that it refers to Jesus.

    and again in Revelation 22:16 - "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

    Lucifer (morning star) was considered a title for Christ adws used in many of the early Christian hymns. Lucifer isn't Satan, but it's a name that he would very much like to have as his own. In fact his whole existance has been focused on assuming the place of the Morning Star: Jesus Christ.

    http://www.sermoncentral.com/sermon.asp?SermonID=37300&ContributorID=3952
     
  7. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

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    Well, I attempted to understand what was said in this chapter by Isaiah. I still believe that it refers to Satan. I am still trying to understand how he is interpreted biblically. Cause their seems to me more than one devil mentioned in the New testament. I don't really understand Christianities "General" opinion on his origen. Help me understand.
     
  8. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

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    11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward•, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

    12 ¶ At that time aBerodach•-baladan, the son of Baladan, king of Babylon, sent letters and a present unto Hezekiah: for he had heard that Hezekiah had been sick.
    2 kings 20;11-12
    Right here the king of babylon is attemplting alliance with Isreal. He's not falling from heaven or neither does his name carry any connotations of Day Star. He obviously is not persecuting them. IT just doesnt make sense that it could be a king.
    Also angels can carry gender, hence reference made to a MAN. Falling from a grave, well, the second death or hell is about as close to the grave as you can get.
     
  9. Seraphiel

    Seraphiel Seraphim

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    Here's my opinion: Satan was kicked out. Maybe he was talking about going back to rule over heaven when he said "ascend to heaven".

    Sometimes angels take human form, from what I've read.

    Now, number 3 is something I can't explain. :D

    If I come up with something, I'll post here.
     
  10. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

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    Oh by the way the name hezekiah in that scripture I last mentioned was the Contemporary king of Israel.

    "Then came Isaiah the prophet unto king Hezekiah, and said unto him, What said these men? and from whence came they unto thee? And Hezekiah said, They are come from a far country, even from Babylon"
    2 kings 20:14

    yeah I agree with sera that The Day star was trying to regain his paradise lost. Or the Fallen Lucifer still thinks he is gonna ascend his throne into heaven.
     
  11. Yauming

    Yauming Member

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    Some Christians read that passage as referring to Satan. Elsewhere in the Bible "satan" is presumed to be the King of Tyre also. But personally, I think it is so ambigious that one should not hold onto that theological position dogmatically.

    Satan often uses human beings to fulfil his purposes here on earth. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Sadam Hussein, and Osama Bin Ladin etc.. are some recent examples. So the Bible passages could be said to be referring to both a historic human being as well as a metaphor for Satan.

    So is Satan a king or fallen angel? I guess from a certain point of view one could say "Yes". But strictly speaking. Satan is a spiritual being and not human. Nonetheless, he often does strongly motivate humans to do his bidding. So in a manner of speaking, they were "the evil one". Just as it is said, God is reflected in the works of his children.

     
     
  12. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    Wow! That's a really good insight; it makes a lot more sense that way. I still tend to think that the name "Lucifer" really refers to the king, and the morning star, and that this does not mean that these are always symbolic of Satan... On the other hand, even if it wasn't always so, it's clear that the names are strongly connected now. I certainly wouldn't recommend praying to or swearing by the morning star, just because this passage might not be about Satan. :)
     
  13. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

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    I would probably think the name was the king, but there isn't any other information connected. Like I said earlier the name was badrahaga something, the scripture references are their. And he was allying with Israel.

    But word Yaum that is some good insight. Cause really if any king is fighting against Israel it is definitly connected to Lucifer. And its interesting when he falls, in verse 9 and 10 its says

    "9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead• for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the KINGS of the nations.

    10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"

    Others that were decieved, other leaders, kings etc, will greet the Day star at his descent to hell.
    Wow I am really convinced that its talking about satan. hahaha. READ my first post on this thread. I seriously explained everything.
     
  14. Ioustinos

    Ioustinos Veteran

    +140
    Eastern Orthodox
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    US-Libertarian
    Hi Aeon, :wave:


    I am here per your request, but what is this discussion about? Is it a question or just commentary?
     
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