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Loving the Unelect

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by redblue22, Jan 29, 2017.

  1. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Once morality has been separated from salvation we've managed to gut the gospels of their meaning-Christianity may as well be an excuse to remain in our sin-the way we prefer anyway-nothing changed.

    "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
  2. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    You are putting the cart before the horse.

    But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

    The only way you can be saved is by the wooing of the Holy Spirit... It isn't YOU doing anything it is all 100% G-d and us merely RESPONDING to the call.

    To suggest or imply that my, yours or ANYONE's personal morality is what led to salvation is PRIDE and Arrogance speaking.

    You and I are and were a filthy, dirty, rotten sinner who DESERVED DEATH. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

    For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. Romans 7:18

    Paul is making it crystal clear. OUR morality is FILTH before the Father. Only AFTER we are saved and we walk in the spirit and begin down the path of life long surrender and OBEDIENCE that Morality comes into play. And even then as Paul tells us it is Messiah that we are surrendering to in obedience and NOT of our OWN doing!
     
  3. John 1720

    John 1720 Harvest Worker Supporter

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    The only supporting evidence for a superior species being created from another species is this:
    1Co 15:51-53 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    1 Thess 4:15-18
    For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

    John 20:16
    So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be with you.”

    Jesus had a knack for appearing out of nowhere, defying the laws of time and space as well as walking on water.

    John 20:26-28 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!"
    Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
    And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

    Bodies are made after their own kind

    At the resurrection we shall be given a body that is made after the image of Christ, the Son of Man.


    In Christ, Pat
     
  4. Dr Bruce Atkinson

    Dr Bruce Atkinson Supporter Supporter

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    We are to love everyone, even our enemies, Jesus said. God's nature is love. Besides, only God knows the future, only God knows who are among the Elect and who are not. We cannot really know the difference between God's lost sheep and the devil's goats. Some prodigals will return to God, some are reprobates who will never return. Since we cannot know which are which, we must love everyone and spread the gospel everywhere.
     
  5. Dr Bruce Atkinson

    Dr Bruce Atkinson Supporter Supporter

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    Then why even comment?
     
  6. Tull

    Tull Well-Known Member

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    Because I wanted to just like you wanted question me about it
     
  7. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Much of this I can agree with. The main difference is probably nuanced by my understanding that the righteousness or obedience or justice that comes from God, alone, is nonetheless meant to be man's righteousness; it always has been. That's the only, authentic, kind of justice or holiness for man-as opposed to man's so-called "righteousness", that he lived by after separating himself from God at the Fall, his self-righteousness to put it another way, that causes so much harm in our world.

    Anyway, God did not create man to sin; and His purpose now is not to suddenly ignore His justice but rather to restore it to His creation. We're here to learn that we cannot be righteous apart from God. And His righteousness can most accurately be defined by the term love, which by its nature excludes sin and fulfills the law. Love is the very nature of God's image that we're to be transformed into.

    I'd also submit that this constitutes our justification; this is what faith is meant to lead to; that while justification and salvation are free, we're nonetheless expected to live that way, to love IOW, and get better at it as grace and time and opportunities allow as per the Parable of the Talents- or possibly suffer the fate of the wicked and lazy servant. In the end we'll be judged more or less as outlined in Matt 25:31-46. Those deeds that were done for the "least of these" are examples of love, of the works of love referred to in Eph 2:10 that we were created in Christ Jesus to do. Salvation is worked out, with He who works in us.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2017
  8. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

    It is a circular process. G-d is light and we are to walk in the light. We are to confess our sin and if we say we have no sin we lie....

    We are commanded to walk as Messiah walked

    1 John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
     
  9. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes, I agree. Justice or righteousness is not meant to be merely imputed, but to be possessed and lived as we come to know and walk with Christ, as we come to be reconciled with and commune with God to put it another way. Because He then both becomes and empowers our righteousness.
     
  10. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    Righteousness comes about by obedience. Obedience comes by way of the renewing of the mind by the washing of the word. The word is the ENTIRE bible, cover to cover. Messiah told us that the Torah and the prophets all hung on the 2 great commandments 1) Love the lord your G-d with all your heart, with all your strength with all your mind and the second was like the first lover your neighbor as yourself.
    In essence the entirety of the Torah and the Prophets are these two. Torah is merely the instructions in HOW we go about Loving G-d as we should and loving our neighbor as ourselves.

    No one who loves his neighbor uncovers his neighbors wife by engaging in adultery with her. One does not steal From his neighbor and then say I love my neighbor. One does not bare false witness and declare that he is showing his love for G-d and his neighbor... or commit murder....or dishonor his mother and father by leaving them uncared for and destitute in their old age (this is btw what this commandment is about.)
     
  11. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes, and authentic obedience comes about by love. Neither can be faked or forced to happen in us. It's the communion with God that we must first achieve by faith, responding to His initiative, to grace, then He effects the change in us. That's the basis of the New Covenant in my understanding. If we try to obey without love being the motivating factor then we fail inwardly even if were to succeed externally. Anyway, I appreciate the commentary of Basil of Cesarea, a 2nd or 3rd century believer, on how this plays itself out:

    "If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."
     
  12. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    I suppose this is where we differ. There has only ever really been one Covenant. What you call the OC (the one given at Sinai) is the same one found in the NT but rather than being a New and different covenant is the original one that has been revealed progressively throughout the ages.

    We see clear allusion to this in Deuteronomy 10:12 “Now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require from you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep the LORD’S commandments and His statutes which I am commanding you today for your good? 14 “Behold, to the LORD your God belong heaven and the highest heavens, the earth and all that is in it. 15 “Yet on your fathers did the LORD set His affection to love them, and He chose their descendants after them, even you above all peoples, as it is this day. 16 So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer. 17“For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. 18“He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing. 19“So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt. 20“You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve Him and cling to Him, and you shall swear by His name.

    We see it again in Jeremiah 31: 31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
     
  13. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes, I think I understand. We just believe that, on a wide scale basis, the New Covenant made grace available to more -and to a greater degree-when the the time was ripe in human history, when humanity had in general, via the chosen people, reached a point of spiritual maturity where the full light was better able to be received. Also that the OC was never revoked, since it was based on the Law which is holy, right, and good-and still must be fulfilled- but that it was replaced by a new and better covenant that makes the fulfillment attainable. The 'knowing God' part of Jer 31:34, "from the least to the greatest" is key to this ability because it speaks of direct communion with God which is the doorway to fulfilling the Law, the right way. This communion and subjugation, based first of all on faith, is what Adam rejected at the Fall. But it blossoms naturally of its own accord as we truly come to know and love God.
     
  14. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    Grace has always been how mankind has been saved.

    We see this in Genesis 15:6 when Abraham believed what G-d says to him.

    15:6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

    The big mistake many people make is marrying works (observing the commandments) and salvation. That was never the purpose of the Torah
     
  15. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    In my understanding even salvation, itself, isn't a clearly stated goal of the Torah, or isn't clearly defined as to its nature.
     
  16. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    The Torah leads to Messiah
    Moses speaks of the New Covenant in Deuteronomy 10

    12 “Now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require from you, but to [c]fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul[This is the great commandment Yeshua speaks of in John], 13 and to keep the Lord’s commandments and His statutes which I am commanding you today for your good? 14 Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the [d]highest heavens, the earth and all that is in it. 15 Yet on your fathers did the Lord set His affection to love them, and He chose their [e]descendants after them, even you above all peoples, as it is this day. 16 So circumcise [f]your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer. [This is the new covenant where our hearts have G-d laws written on them and in our minds. It is spoken further of in Jeremiah 31 ] 17 For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. 18 He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing. 19 So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt. 20 You shall fear the Lord your God; you shall serve Him and cling to Him, and you shall swear by His name. 21 He is your praise and He is your God, who has done these great and awesome things for you which your eyes have seen. 22 Your fathers went down to Egypt seventy persons in all, and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars of heaven.

    Messiah rebukes the scribes and pharisee's when he says in John 5
    39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41“I do not receive glory from men; 42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. 43“I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44“How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? 45“Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46“For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47“But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

    The big mistake that some make is the attempt to separate the Torah (first 5 books) and the prophets and writings (rest of the OT) Yeshua clearly shows that they are inseparable when he speaks concerning the 2 greatest commandments.

    Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38 “This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

    If we are indeed pursuing G-d with all our heart, mind, will and strength we will TRUST and Believe.... this is the faith component which leads to Salvation. We are saved by grace, through faith.

    we are NOT saved by our works (observance of the commandments)
     
  17. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Well, yes, I certainly agree that Jesus explained and clarified that which wasn't necessarily so obvious to everyone in the Torah. The very purpose of the messiah and who/what He was saving the chosen people from was disputed.

    And while I agree that works don't save us I also affirm that we'll nevertheless be judged by the law-morality isn't separated from salvation such that we can sin wantonly and still be saved; justice has always been the issue with God; sin is what separated man from Him to begin with, and continues to. Faith, in response to grace, is the antidote that begins to rectify this situation since Adam let faith die in his heart to begin with, as he committed the very first sin by disbelieving God's word.
     
  18. aus22

    aus22 Newbie

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    The problem with those who believed they are saved by following a certain church is that they also believe their friends and relatives who do not belong to that church a not saved.
    This is very sad.
     
  19. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    That is the very definition of a cult
     
  20. NIrelandGillian

    NIrelandGillian Member

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    Of course God loves everybody, not just the elect. That's why He sent His Son to die for us. 'For God so loved the world that He gave us His only begotten Son, that whosever believeth in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life'.

    Gillian
     
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