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Loving the Orlando victims and spreading the Word!

Discussion in 'Conservative Christianity' started by Ariel Anguish Dove, Jun 16, 2016.

  1. Ariel Anguish Dove

    Ariel Anguish Dove none

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    This is terrible guys such a sad day we are tearing scripture apart like this. :( Jesus was friends to the Prostitutes and we should too and help them to be set free. Instead of tearing scripture apart whether we should hate them or be their friend.

    Have any of you have a heart? As I did not ask about giving scripture of why homosexuality is wrong just that we should show support and comfort them.

    Its why none of you have friends who are homosexual because they will all run away due to how you tackle this sensitive issue.

    Again I say why not be like Dr Brown? :)

    Perhaps it was my mistake to start a thread here as I don't see any kind of love like how Dr brown would show it.

    The Moderator can decide to close it if they want.
     
  2. The Portuguese Baptist

    The Portuguese Baptist Centre-right conservative Christian-Democrat

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    I personally see no reason to close it. I am having an interesting discussion with this fundamentalist who wants to impose his own form of what seems to be some sort of a neo-theocratic government.

    As for demonstrating love, rejoice! Notice how all of us who have opposed this fundamentalist are demonstrating love! :) Would we be arguing against him if we would not like to demonstrate love towards homosexuals? Rejoice! We have demonstrated love. Only one guy has not.
     
  3. twinserk

    twinserk Well-Known Member

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    Dude, why do you think Christ is coming back with an iron rod? The world is God's creation, and He commanded us to live righteously. But the world has fallen to evil, and wickedness. So He's going to come and set things right again, by destroying the evil, and establishing the good. The government is suppose to uphold God's law, and submit to His rule. So I find your question to be pretty ridiculous. You act as though God's kingdom is suppose to be limited to the spiritual realm.

    He won't force anyone to obey Him. Scripture never says that anywhere. Everyone has the freedom of choice. Repent and follow Christ, or be destroyed.

    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    As I already pointed out, the purpose of His ministry was not to punish the unrighteous - that happens in Revelation. Nor have I stated that it is my mission to punish the unrighteous. So I fail to see why you're harping on this.

    I understand, you respect people who worship themselves and the Devil. Your argument is entirely unbiblical.

    1 Samuel 2:30 Wherefore the God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

    Not at all, those who wish to practice another religion are free to leave. That is how God's kingdom works. His willing servants get to live and prosper in His land, and everyone else remains without. Though I'm not sure how much of a "without" there is going to be left after the events in Revelation. Because it says the nations will be ruled.

    Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    Why do I want a Godly government? I don't even know what to say to that. If you don't know, I won't be able to explain it to you.

    Absence of explicit commands?

    Exodus 23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.

    Deuteronomy 7:2 And when thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

    Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

    Psalms 26:4 I have not sat with vain persons, neither will I go in with dissemblers. 5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.


    Jeremiah 15:17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

    2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

    James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

    1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    1 Peter 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 ¶ Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:


    1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son the Messiah.

    1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


    Friends to the prostitutes? Uh, no.

    Mark 2:17 When Christ heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    He came to call sinners to repentance. He came, to turn sinners into righteous saints. He came, to turn sinners from their wicked ways. Not be their companion while they revel in evil. My goodness.

    John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

    Christ matter-of-factly stated that only those who obey Him are His friends. So, if a prostitute repented, and turned from her evil and obeyed Him, then yes, He would be her friend. But that would make her a former prostitute. Which is, not a prostitute at all.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  4. twinserk

    twinserk Well-Known Member

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    That is false. You are demonstrating your own definition of love. You've decided that love is being friends with them, emotionally supporting them in their grief, etc. You have thus perverted Christ's commands with your own opinions and ideas.

    Scripture is very clear about what love is, and how we are commanded to love others.

    John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

    1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  5. The Portuguese Baptist

    The Portuguese Baptist Centre-right conservative Christian-Democrat

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    You still have not answered my question. Again, how do you go from ‘To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations — that one will “rule them with an iron sceptre and will dash them to pieces like pottery” — just as I have received authority from my Father’ to ‘Homosexuality should be illegal’? The passage addresses nothing of the sort! Yes, the world has fallen into evil and wickedness, but where does it say that we should use force to attempt to set it right again?

    Where, just where — be it in the Bible or in state constitutions —, do you read that?

    Where does it say that it is not? And, again, to be specific, where does the Bible say that we are supposed to punish any sort of immorality through the government?

    We agree on this.

    Yes, you did. You said that homosexuality should be illegal; since we agree that homosexuality is unrighteousness, we can both conclude that you have called for the punishment of (some of) the unrighteous. Therefore, if you have now declared that it is not your mission to punish the unrighteous, why do you want homosexuality to be illegal?

    What is unbiblical here is how you attempt to use that verse to show that we are supposed to disrespect unbelievers, which is written nowhere in the Bible. And, yes, I do respect people who worship themselves and the Devil, because I believe that justice belongs to the Lord, meaning that I have no right to attempt to hinder immoral people from committing immoral acts (unless, of course, such acts result in innocent victims, like murder).

    Leave what? Their church, their country or their planet? Because, if you mean their church, then we agree; but, if you mean their country, then my argument remains.

    Oh well! If you cannot explain it to me, then I guess you have no case.

    Oh dear! Another series of misapplied verses! Let us go through them, one error at a time, shall we?



    Firstly, those were commands specific to Israel, as a nation, at a specific time; secondly, neither verse prohibits friendship.

    These verses warn against doing the same sinful things which unbelievers do, and not against being their friends.

    It does not refer to friendship with unbelievers; obviously, it refers to instances in which any association with unbelievers might cause our two different faiths to clash, which does not necessarily happen with friendships.

    Again, ‘friendship of the world’ refers to acceptance of the sinful worldly way of life, not friendship with unbelievers.

    Again, neither such verse prohibits friendship with non-Christians.

    Exactly what is clear in such verses? That, when God tells us to love our neighbours, he means that we should simply not lie to them, not kill them, not steal from them and not covet their possessions? Oh dear! It is interesting to see how Jesus took these seemingly simple commandments much further (Matthew 5). It is also interesting to see how, when asked about an example about how to love a neighbour, Jesus told a story of a man who did much more than that and actually supported and stood for his neighbour in his grief when he needed help (Luke 10:25-37).

    Incidentally, what if I told you that the only two commandments which God has given us are ‘Love the Lord your God’ and ‘Love your neighbour’? Suddenly, your ‘biblical’ definition of love turns into circular reasoning.

    Furthermore, just notice how all the three verses you have mentioned talk about either our loving God or God's loving us. Neither says anything about our loving others.

    God uses human language to communicate his intentions to us. The meaning of the word ‘love’ is clear in our languages. What does your wife mean when she tells you that she loves you? What do your parents mean when they tell you the same? What do your children mean? What do your friends mean? What do you mean when you say the same to them? Only that they promise not to break any of the Ten Commandments against you? Or is there more to the word than it?
     
  6. twinserk

    twinserk Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say we should use force. We don't have any civil authority. The civil government wields the sword.

    Deuteronomy 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: 19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them: 20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

    Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven. The government is responsible for upholding law and order. The government is suppose to be in submission to God, and thus enforce His law.

    No I did not. I said it should be illegal, not that I should punish them. Once again, I do not have civil authority, the government does.

    Why do I want homosexuality to be illegal? It has nothing to do with what I want. It's an abomination, God hates it, and God states it to be illegal. That's why it should be illegal. This is His world, and is subject to His rules.

    There is a large margin between respect, and disrespect. What I described is the absence of respect, not the presence of disrespect. Disrespect implies that you are out to get them, insult them, and demean them. And I said nothing of the sort.

    Why do I have to continue repeating myself? No where have I said that you or I have the authority to punish anyone, or force the law down someones throat. That authority belongs to the civil government, and I said that they (the civil government) should enforce the law. So please, stop harping on this. I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over.

    Christ, when He comes, will seize civil authority from the government, and give it to those who overcome.

    You tell me, are they going to rule church buildings with a rod of iron? I seem to recall it said nations. So yes, they will have to leave the country.

    I wish for a Godly government, because I am a follower of God. You seem to prefer being ruled by satanists.

    Would you please explain to me how you can be friends with someone, who isn't allowed to live in the country in which you live? I don't think they had email.

    If you're a part of the new covenant, then you have been grafted into Israel. Which makes the law applicable to you.

    Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith God, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

    It says both. David clearly stated that he would not sit with the wicked, or hang out with dissemblers. He didn't just say "I won't do what wicked people do", he said "I won't hang out with wicked people".

    The prophet Jeremiah echoes those same sentiments. He states that he sat alone because of God's will. He would not hang around with evil people.

    The verse does include what you speak of, but you are narrowing it's scope. What is communion?

    2842. koinwnia koinonia, koy-nohn-ee'-ah
    Search for 2842 in KJV

    from 2844; partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction:--(to) communicate(-ation), communion, (contri-)distribution, fellowship.

    Perhaps more of the chapter would help:

    2 Corithians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith God, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Almighty.


    You repeating that doesn't make it true, you're stating an opinion, not quoting what a verse says. You have yet to biblically demonstrate how someone can be friends with the sinful worldly way of life, and how the worldly way of life hated Christ and His disciples.

    Yes, they do. John states that the gospel is given, so that fellowship can be extended. Thus, those without the gospel, are not given fellowship. But we've already been over this. I used the example of a gym membership card, and you went "Oh".

    1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son the Messiah.
    Within the law are commands about how to treat your neighbor. If you find his livestock lost, if they're collapsed by the roadside, etc., then you're suppose to stop and help them. So surely you can see, that if you're suppose to stop and return his donkey to him, you would also be commanded to stop and help him if he's been beaten up and robbed.

    Deuteronomy 22:1 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother. 2 And if thy brother be not nigh unto thee, or if thou know him not, then thou shalt bring it unto thine own house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him again. 3 In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all lost thing of thy brother's, which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself. 4 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ass or his ox fall down by the way, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely help him to lift them up again.

    So your statements are once again incorrect. He did not "take them much further", He merely expressed what was already in the law.

    Exactly, that is the beauty of it. Everything leads back to keeping God's law. By keeping it, we are loving God (1 John 5:3), loving our brethren (1 John 5:2), abiding in Christ (John 14:24), and producing righteous fruit (John 15:5-6).

    Everything boils down to keeping the law (commandments), which is doing God's will.

    I think you missed 1st John 5:2:

    1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    No, He tells us point blank what love is. We have no need to run it through our personal meaning filter. Believers are the children of God, and are thus in a relationship with Him. He gets to define how He is loved, not us. Just the same as I get to define how I feel loved by my friends. They don't get to decide that for me based on what they think.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  7. The Portuguese Baptist

    The Portuguese Baptist Centre-right conservative Christian-Democrat

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    Granted, but you said that the government should criminalise it. Evidently, this calls for its forceful prohibition and a penalty in case the prohibition is disrespected. It is impossible to do this without force.

    The passage applied to Israel, at that particular point in time. It does not apply to modern governments. We no longer live under the Old Testament Law, do we?

    The quoted verse is a prayer, not a parliamentary petition. We are never biblically encouraged to use the Government to impose God's standard of morality over everyone. You are taking that verse far beyond what Jesus meant with it.

    How do you want homosexuality to be illegal without judges to punish homosexuals?

    Not at all. God has not called for earthly governments to implement his standards of morality. As I explained earlier, the fact that it is illegal by godly standards does not mean that it should be illegal by human standards. Much in the same way that two different countries can have different laws, so can our countries have laws which differ from God's laws.

    Granted, but I still respect such people; I would say that, in a way, I kind of respect everyone. As for the Government's authority, I have already explained that it is already bad enough that you want the Government to punish homosexuals.

    In that case, my argument remains (because you did not answer it adequately), which I will copy and paste here for convenience: ‘As you know, there have been times in which being a Christian was illegal, because another religion was in power and held absolute authority over the others and did not respect their right to freely exist. Freedom of religion was an excellent achievement of the last few centuries — without it, either you would be lucky enough to have your religion in power, or you would see yourself prohibited from worshipping. This would be utter nonsense, and I would expect that you would agree with me on this. I am dismayed to see that you appear to want to impose Christianity as an official religion, which would doubtlessly oppress other religions.’


    I am also a follower of God, but I believe that those who are not followers of God have the right to live in my country; and I believe that Christianity should not be imposed officially on my country, because that would demonstrate a lot of disrespect towards non-Christians, who also have the right to live in my country without being disrespected.

    Regarding the ‘Satanists’, no, I do not prefer being ruled by Satanists; rather, I prefer being ruled by anyone who, regardless of his religion, will not impose it over me. So long as my politicians agree on promoting freedom of religion, I do not care whether they are Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Mormon, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, agnostic, deist or atheist, because I can rest assured that they will not impose their religion over me. As a matter of fact, I would much rather being ruled by a tolerant Muslim than by an intolerant Christian (like you).

    They didn't have email, but we do now! Problem solved! We can still be their friends. Incidentally, of course, the Jewish Law no longer applies to us, so you cannot use such verses.

    On the contrary, the New Testament declares that the Jewish Law is no longer binding (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).

    Granted, but neither actually forbids hanging out occasionally with such people. The emphasis is on avoiding the sinful things which they do (which includes not being with them when they are doing it), but nothing prohibits us from being together with sinful people when they are not sinning.

    Actually, I think you are taking it beyond its scope. Paul is emphasising that we must avoid associating with sinful people so that we do not have to compromise our holiness — but not always will hanging out with non-Christians haemorrhage our holiness.

    Indeed, we have been over this. Allow me, therefore, to copy-paste my response to that interesting analogy: ‘However, it is likely that the type of fellowship mentioned there is not the same thing as normal friendship. Perhaps it somehow refers to fellowship specifically within the church — that is, the kind of fellowship we enjoy in church, as opposed to other kinds. It does not seem very reasonable to me that God would prohibit us from being friends with non-Christians; no passage is ever that clear. Surely, we may be (and are) warned against such friends and are advised to be wise in choosing friends, but this is no actual hindrance to being friends with non-Christians. I have a few who have often helped me when I needed them, when it would be, for one reason or another, more difficult to talk to church members. However, I do admit that I obviously favour friendship within the church.’


    In your mind, does that include mourning for — and consoling the relatives of — people killed in a massacre?

    Again, circular reasoning. God says, ‘Love me and your neighbours.’ According to you, ‘to love’ means ‘to obey God's commandments’. But God's commandments are ‘Love me and your neighbours.’ This is the fallacy of circular reasoning.
     
  8. twinserk

    twinserk Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the government should use force when necessary, in order to maintain justice.

    Yes it does, and yes, we do. It is true that some laws do not apply to us now, because we live outside the land. There are a lot of commands that begin with "When ye come into the land which I shall give you...". Those are not applicable, because we are not in the land.

    It's a prayer, not a petition? Dude, what in the world do you think prayer is? No, I'm not, His intention is made very clear in Revelation. He is coming to the Earth, to smite the nations and rule them with an iron rod. So your statement is a complete fallacy, and nothing more than your personal ideas and opinions.

    When did I say there should not be judges in place to judge the unrighteous?

    Once again, you continue to champion nothing but opinions.

    Amos 5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.

    1 Kings 16:2 Forasmuch as I exalted thee out of the dust, and made thee prince over my people Israel; and thou hast walked in the way of Jeroboam, and hast made my people Israel to sin, to provoke me to anger with their sins;
    3 Behold, I will take away the posterity of Baasha, and the posterity of his house; and will make thy house like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

    These are but two examples. You can find scores more in books of the prophets and kings. God wants everyone to keep His law, and uphold the integrity of His name, and that includes figures of authority.

    With respect, that's huge block of text, full of nothing but your personal opinions, with no scriptural support. If the faith was declared as an official religion, then those who were not interested would be free to leave the country.

    Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity....43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    Dude, your opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Neither does mine. If you or I ever become God of a universe somewhere, then perhaps our opinion will mean something then.

    Your personal preferences have been noted.

    It does apply to us, as any believer has been grafted onto the original vine, in place of old branches which have been cut off. And the New Testament does not declare the law to be dead, contrary to popular belief:

    Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Christ said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

    John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

    1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
    (See verse above)

    1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    Galations 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth,
    if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Ro 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? (The law does not require that converts be circumcised - My note.)

    Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
    But in addition to all of that, the Son of God told us what would happen on judgement day, so at the end of the day, this verse is king:

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Those that are sent away, did not know Christ, and were workers of iniquity. Iniquity is sin, and sin is the violation of the law:

    1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

    Dude, your going back and forth. You say "granted", but then go back to your original argument of "but all it's saying is that we shouldn't do the evil things they do". In any case, you are not correct. Both verses state no such limitations. They state that they do not sit with the wicked. Period.

    Psalms 26:5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.

    Jeremiah 15:17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

    That's not what he said. He said don't be yoked with these people, and that light has no communion with darkness. And communion is defined as:

    2842. koinwnia koinonia, koy-nohn-ee'-ah
    Search for 2842 in KJV

    from 2844; partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction:--(to) communicate(-ation), communion, (contri-)distribution, fellowship.

    So, if you claim to be light, then you have no business socially engaging or fellowshipping with darkness. Which is corroborated by all the other verses that I've already listed.

    More of your opinion, again. I've just demonstrated that the verses are that clear, you just continue to offer up your opinion on what they say, rather than abiding by exactly what they say.

    I fail to see the objection. Unless you would like to argue that scriptures is incorrect, and false.

    God's commandments are summed up by "love Me and your neighbors". You can find most of the commandments listed in the Old Testament. Which by fulfilling, you will be loving God and loving your neighbor.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  9. The Portuguese Baptist

    The Portuguese Baptist Centre-right conservative Christian-Democrat

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    So you are calling for the usage of force against those who practise homosexuality. Even though you are not the one who will directly use such force, you are still to be held partially responsible for such usage of force; if a party which defends the criminalisation of homosexuality shows up tomorrow and you vote for it and it reaches the Government and they do criminalise homosexuality, you will be held as partially responsible for it. That is exactly what I have been addressing: your intent to use force (or, more accurately, to order the Government to use force) against homosexuals.

    Ah! So your problem is a different one. You think we are still commanded to stone homosexuals, as it is written in Leviticus 20:13, because you think the Jewish law still applies to us. Am I correct?

    I said ‘a parliamentary petition’. It is not a parliamentary petition. We are supposed to make this prayer, but not to attempt to make our governments into theocracies. God himself will force a theocracy if he wants it. Until he does, we should not because he has never called us to do it.

    If anything here is a fallacy, it is your taking the prophecy that God will come to the Earth to rule the nations and making it mean that we are supposed to impose God's will right now by (amongst other things) criminalising homosexuality. The Bible says nothing of the sort; you are the one imposing your own personal idea.

    Do you think that, because you are not the party which is directly punishing homosexuals, you are acquitted of any responsibility for their punishment, even though you are calling for said punishment? If you say yes, then, by that logic, Hitler is acquitted of any responsibility for the death of the Jews, because he never directly killed any, having only called for their killing. If you say no, then my case remains and I am correct in talking to you as if you were responsible for the punishment of homosexuals, because you are calling for it.

    Since the Old Testament law no longer applies to us, would you care to show me a single verse which says the same in the New Testament?

    Actually, what I wrote was entirely based on historical facts: the lack of religious freedom has led to intense persecution and murder. Regarding the ‘freedom to leave the country’, it may sound pretty in your head, but it is actually really bad. Suppose that a majority of Muslims would take over your country and impose their religion on you; would you be glad if they told you, ‘Feel free to flee away to another country’? Does the problem of persecution suddenly go away? Or is it not a form of religious persecution to expel someone from your country on religious grounds?

    Unfortunately for you (and fortunately for society), my opinion is shared by virtually every single Christian on the planet. We Christians are generally tolerant of other religions.

    You are assuming that such verses, whenever using the words ‘law’ or ‘commandments’, are talking about the Old Testament law. However, Jesus gave us only two commandments. And the New Testament makes it clear that the Old Testament law is no longer binding (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).

    I rest my case.

    The objection is that you are misinterpreting those verses as allegedly presenting a definition of ‘love’.

    Except that those commandments have actually no validity any more. Those commandments present examples of things you need to do to love God and your neighbour, but more examples could be added. It would be impossible to create a complete and comprehensive list of all the ways that you can love God and your neighbour. We do things, not because they are written in the Old Testament, but because they reflect love, which is commanded in the New Testament; the law we must follow is now written in our hearts, as it was prophesied that it would happen in the New Covenant, in Jeremiah 31:33.
     
  10. twinserk

    twinserk Well-Known Member

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    You obviously didn't read the verses. I'll quote them again.

    Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Christ said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Deuteronomy 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 17 Thou shalt not kill. 18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery. 19 Neither shalt thou steal. 20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour. 21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

    Doesn't take much to piece together that He's quoting Deuteronomy, pretty much verbatim.

    Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Christ answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am God.

    Once again, it doesn't take much to realize He's quoting OT law. And you will notice that in the latter portion of the verses in Mark, He doesn't say "these are the only commandments", but "there is none other commandment greater than these". So your statement that those are the only two is unfounded, and completely false. This is confirmed in the other gospel books as well, where He once again states they are the greatest commandments, upon which all the others are built, not the only ones.

    Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Christ said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    What you are pushing, is that the law is dead, and that you are free to do whatever you wish. So long as it falls under your personal definition of "loving" God and other people. Love is specifically defined in the scripture by both Christ, and the disciple John:

    1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

    So your statements about the law being dead are false. You are completely disregarding these verses:

    John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

    John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

    Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    And these verses:

    James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    And these:

    John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

    1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
    And these:

    1 John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning (Genesis 1:1). The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.​

    1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    And these:

    Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
    And these:

    1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

    1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    And these, from Paul no less:

    1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

    Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
    Paul also, in addition to Christ, confirms that the law being referred to in the NT, is the OT law. And that loving your neighbor, is accomplished by fulfilling all the law:

    Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
    Basically, what you're advocating is that I discard the ministry of Christ, Peter, John, James, Jude, the rest of the bible, and one handful of Paul's writings - in order to accept another handful of Paul's writings.

    You have no response to the bible as a whole, so you continue retreating to the handful of Paul's verses that support what you're saying - all the while ignoring the other verses from Paul (among others) that condemn what you're saying.

    By the mouth of two or three witnesses a thing is established. You have one witness, and one who contradicts himself at that. I have six witnesses (merely in the NT only), all in unity, and all teaching the same thing - lawful living.

    The message you are preaching is thus not established, and is in direct opposition to Christ. I have thoroughly explained why you are wrong, and you continue to ignore that evidence, in favor of the unestablished, self-contradicted verses from Paul.

    I will thus be exiting this conversation. Those reading can judge between us.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  11. The Portuguese Baptist

    The Portuguese Baptist Centre-right conservative Christian-Democrat

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    Indeed. However: 1) Jesus was still living in the time of the Old Testament law (only after his death was it abolished); and 2) all those commandments can be, as Paul explains elsewhere, basically summarised in one.

    He is quoting the only two Old Testament commandments which are maintained in the New Testament. He is not validating all the remaining commandments.

    However, Jesus does say, in Matthew 22:40, as you have accurately quoted, ‘All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.’ Basically, the rest of the entire Old Testament Law is only detailing ways that you can love God and love your neighbours; evidently, though, such extra details are unnecessary if you know exactly what it means to love.

    Indeed, the Law is dead, but that does not mean that I can adapt my definition of ‘love’ so as to allow me to do anything. On the contrary, love still means what we all know it to mean. And I can assure you that it includes comforting and showing support for the relatives of innocent people who died at the hands of terrorists, even if such people were homosexual.

    Circular reasoning: God's commandments are themselves that we love God and our neighbours. Such verses are not defining love; they are merely stating that love requires obedience to God and that loving God requires loving our neighbours. These verses are nowhere defending that you must still obey the Old Testament law to be saved.

    Again, Jesus was still living before the Law was abolished.

    Again, that ‘law’ and those ‘commandments’ are not the Old Testament law; they are the New Testament law, which contains only two commandments (the only necessary ones).

    Again, that passage precisely demonstrates how love is basically all of the law. You need nothing else. Therefore, going back to specific passages in the Old Testament in order for you to learn exactly how to love is uncalled for.

    Not at all. No such ministries ever defended the continuity of the Old Testament law into the Church Era. Paul explicitly says that the law is no longer binding (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15), since the entire law can be summarised in two commandments (Matthew 22:36-40), as Paul further exemplifies (Romans 13:9); which is why we need not, for instance, observe the Sabbath or special feasts (Romans 14:5; Colossians 2:16-17) or be circumcised (Acts 15:1-11; Galatians 2) or abstain from certain foods (Acts 10:9-16; Romans 14:1-4).

    I am surprised, however, to see that you have declared that God's Word contradicts itself.

    You do well, because we are both disagreeing regarding the foundations of our faith, namely, whether the Old Testament Law is to still be followed today and whether the Bible contradicts itself.

    It has been truly interesting to discuss with you. God bless you!
     
  12. IAMANOBODY2015

    IAMANOBODY2015 Worthy is the Lamb Supporter

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    It is true Christians will be hated for holding Biblical truth. But it is also true Christians will be supported as well. Christians are not the only ones who are hated for their beliefs. Everyone gets hated for what they believe in. If someone online comes out of the closet, they get supported as well as hate.

    A lot of people still support Christianity. When Kirk Cameron spoke against homosexuality, yes, he received a lot of hate. But he also received a lot of support. People were applauding him saying yeah those queers deserve to go to hell.

    Think about this. Gay people have been kicked out of homeless shelters. Gay kids have been shunned by their Christian parents and have been kicked out of the home. A lot of this has happened in America. In Russia, gays are being hazed, beaten, and killed. And gays have gotten beaten and bullied here in America as well. And those who support gay rights will have some hate as well.

    I am not trying to get anyone to care that these things happen to gay people. That ship has sailed.

    The point that I am making is everyone gets persecuted whether you hold Biblical truth or not. People have gotten hated for not holding Biblical principles. Christians have treated gay people the same way they have accused the world of treating them. And yes, I am saying it is usually gay people they shun.

    Now, I know homosexuality is an abomination. But I am just pointing out that Christians are not the only ones who gets shunned.

    Everyone gets hated and everyone gets shunned when they hold beliefs that is different then their beliefs.

    And sometimes Christians do the shunning. But I will also acknowledge gays and secular people do it as well.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
  13. Ariel Anguish Dove

    Ariel Anguish Dove none

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    Our very sins are an abomination not just being homosexual. A well respected reform preacher said something around that if he could take all your deeds and thoughts on put it on a projector for all to see you will run from this campus to never show your face again. Cause you have thought things so wicked and perverted you can't even share them with your closest friend. And your friend will not be your friend also if they knew these thoughts!

    You and I would run and run very hard or try to cover up or even lie right out, right now! If our thoughts were displayed to everyone in the last hour! And it gets far worse then that! Because as Scripture says that if Christ Had not been a curse and not died we are all heading to hell right now! We are just as wicked as the devil himself! We are that bad!

    We look at the pharisees and say praise God I am not like that! But you are! You and me! We will have no hesitation to want to Kill Christ and put Him on the cross again if God just took his Grace off! You don't realize that do you? Don't realize the full potential of what you can actually do if your pressured or if Christ just let go.

    So don't anyone over here start saying I am not as sinful as a homosexual, I am clean and do all good things.

    We are all hedonist sinners needing Grace! Not with stinking attitudes of throwing out the homosexual because we are so clean in Christ. :(

    Pastor macarthur sermons are also very convicting when you read it: So I hope anyone reading this will read it!

    http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/2294/exposing-the-truth-about-mens-hearts
    In other words, man is born in sin. David said in Psalm 51:4, "In sin did my mother conceive me." Jeremiah said, "The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it?" The Bible, from Old Testament to New Testament, chronicles the heart of man. It shows his heart in all times and all climates and all circumstances, and his heart is ever and always evil. The depravity, the corruption of the sin nature is passed from Adam down through every man as poison is carried from the fountain to the bucket that draws it.
     
  14. Ariel Anguish Dove

    Ariel Anguish Dove none

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    Thank you wannawitness for liking my post i hope more will like it too I could not post on your wall so I will post it here. Again if anyone has read Dr brown on homosexuality they really should and see how compassionate but being biblical he is. :) And we should all learn from him and not try to build a wall that we are to cut ourselves from the sinner. Cause how do we reach the sinner if we cut ourselves off them because they are sinners? So lets us all have a heart like Christ as he mixed with all the people of his day who were seen as rejected and defiled. The righteous people like the Pharisees did not want to come close to them because they were contaminated with sin.

    How about that beautiful lady kissing Jesus feet? Look what the others said about her! And then Jesus response! He did not enter long debates of why we should stay far away from them but instead to draw close to them and from there they are set free. Isn't that beautiful something we just missed cause we are too caught up with all the details and staying far away from sinners? Less we be contaminated with their sins? :(

    Seek out those who are homosexual and be their friend if you know of any and have the strength to do so. :)
     
  15. WannaWitness

    WannaWitness Shining God's Light for a Lost World.

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    You are welcome. That's kind of the way I see it. Sometimes we as Christians (and I speak for myself) can get so caught up in viewing those living in sin with blinders on and pointing out their faults that we cannot see our own, failing to really relate to them, and as a result, miss out on some great opportunities to lead them to Jesus, the true Light. The author of one of the articles I posted mentioned that he spoke with a girl who had lesbian inclinations. As it turned out, the young woman's Christian grandmother was so busy condemning her with Scripture about the lifestyle being an abomination to God that she never presented to her granddaughter the message of the Cross and God's saving grace and forgiveness. So it took an outsider (the author of the article) who took the time to speak with her to take on the task of praying with her and leading her to the Lord.

    Another thing to think about is that even after becoming Christians, we all still struggle with sin of some sort. (Hey, nobody is perfect, and nobody can rightly say that they are.) This means that there are some Christians who still struggle with homosexual tendencies and desires, even knowing that it's wrong. Some admit these weaknesses to other fellow believers, confessing that they know it is wrong, and ask for prayer. So then we ought to be there for them and pray for them, for God to have guidance in their lives. As for myself, I wouldn't dare point my finger at other believers and their faults because, trust me, I am struggling with issues of my own. I have jealousy problems, and have the habit of comparing myself to others. Sure, it has nothing to do with homosexuality, but it is just as bad, as all sin is alike to God. I know that jealousy and envy is not of God, so I am praying these things through, and trusting that God is helping me improve, not only on this but other problem areas of my life. I have not arrived yet (and never will until I get to Heaven), but I'm getting there. Hopefully and prayerfully.
     
  16. Ariel Anguish Dove

    Ariel Anguish Dove none

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    Thank you Wanna Witness as this will be the most constructive talk on the topic! :)

    I have dealt with this and in their eyes they do not see it as condemning as they would say its the right thing to do even though it hurts, better they see their sins and repent then burn in hell. With much saddness its comes from the reform camp those who protest to know Gods word better then all the other denomination and the ones to look up too when knowing what Scripture Truth is.

    I also read counter argument on the reform camp has ruined their life and I never really believe it until your part of the culture and can see what is going on. :(

    Ministries like Way of the Master or how about Todd who made a Christian girl cry?


    I understand where Todd was coming from you speak the truth let people know their sins buts its the only approach he takes with the crowd, in showing they are sinners. And this is what upset the poor Sister in Christ so much that it just all about judgement. :(

    So you stand in the street shouting out to people they are sinner and need to repent!

    One thing we need to understand is not everyone reacts to the same techniques use to repent. Some people get turned of with facts, just turned off with preachers or just can't be bothered to listen. its why when I see all the street preaching he does I really do like to know the percentage of those who comes to faith?

    More ways to preach to someone then shouting you need to repent!
    There are just more ways to reach someone then shout it out on the street that they are sinner and need to repent! They don't see they are sinner and need repenting is something that street preacher need to know about. They won't be convicted of their sins cause if the church can't get them too then no preach will!

    Well Jesus did it!
    Cause He Had authority over the spirit realm and what ever He says goes! He had deep insight into each person heart and when he spoke people listen! Not because he was a Rabbi after all Jews wanted Him dead! The Pharisees was not keen on listening on wanted to correct and condemn. But Jesus Had Spiritual Authority As God was With Him so its why so many flocked to Him! They flocked because they wanted healing and food far more then what He Spoke. But when they all sat down after eating they listen and was so baffled! Everyone was!

    John 6:42
    At this, the Jews began to grumble about Jesus because He had said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They were asking, “Is this not Jesus,the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then can He say, ‘I have come down from heaven?’”

    No street human preacher or pastor or modern prophet has this authority
    And that is why all their talk will ever be will just be talk cause if pastors of church can't convince then then no street evangelist will have much success either by just thinking that if you let people see they are sinner then they will repent.

    So what our sisters says is very true that you reach out and be friends with sinner instead of again of what I said that quoting scripture saying we need to stay far far away from them as any kind of close relationship will bring sin upon us.

    Todd has no such friendship with Homosexual for one I wonder how many secular friends he has? But from what our sister has said I bet she does and has influence over them far better then what Todd can do.

    Todd Ministry is a specific Ministry and his technique is good but its should not be the standard of how you should reach people. And that is what our sister was trying to get at with Todd that it not just judgement, judgement.

    But sadly it is pounded out that way that to reach someone effectively you need to make them see they are sinner so they will repent! The friend approach is not going to get them to see they are sinner and your wasting your time. See a stranger to share the Gospel, just tell about sin, God so they see they are sinners and see they need God.

    But we all know they don't want God they are haters! We all are! So telling them they are sinners will not make a difference.

    Its like shouting out that evolution is false, it won't work.

    You can still give out tracts but its only one small component to actually reaching that person! Sure Todd is there telling them they are sinner but 99% of the time their secular friends just tell them its trash! You see the connection? All Todd work will go down the drain at the end of day as these people will wake up and not even remember a thing that he said!

    You need our sister in that video to actually be connecting and being friends with them to help slowly to come to Christ. Not just yelling at them so they repent! And she will have a greater influences over them and her secular friends will remember her more then Todd.

    And even being friend is also very difficult because you cannot force someone to believe. And you don't be friend for the longer purpose of converting them its being dishonest. Because then your friendship is not genuine at all and its all because you want to convert them even though that is the best thing for them in the long run.

    Anyway I think Todd ministry will be more effective if he runs secular classes on the bible so people can come and listen? Have a wider spectrum of topics you can discuss that is not about preaching the Bible like what Ravi Zacharais does that will hold a more solid spectrum of listeners.

    Todd also said we are commended to preach the Gospel
    But he should also know that those who do preach will be under even strict judgement! And not everyone should preach the Gospel just like what Paul washer said. If you want to be an Evangelist then you got to study hard for it not throw your life away. Nobody wants your life but they want someone who can teach them so not everyone should preach the Gospel. And what about other verses in scripture of using our talent as not everyone is a Todd? Who can dish out fast facts on the Bible on sin.

    So our sisters said we should live it, make relationships, connect cause that is something you should do too and as discuss above.

    I like to post a video on Dr Brown as he debates on homosexuality and this is how we should connect with sinners. You don't see him tearing apart the other person as you would see in some other aggressive sensitive debates. Or people or groups who congratulated the pastor that the Olando victims deserve being killed! :(

    Quote:
    The estranged son of a Kansas pastor famous for protesting the funerals of soldiers and AIDS victims has condemned his family's plans to picket the funerals of the 26 people -- including 20 children -- who were killed when a gunman stormed a Connecticut elementary school.

    In the wake of Friday's massacre in Newtown, Conn., members of Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kan., posted Twitter messages saying they would picket outside Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown. The messages provided no information on the time of the planned picketing.

    "Westboro 'God hates [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]' Baptist Church is planning to picket at Sandy Hook, to praise God's judgment,'" was posted by Margie Phelps, the daughter of Westboro leader Fred Phelps Sr. Her sister, Shirley Phelps-Roper, tweeted Saturday that the group would "sing praise to God for the glory of his work in executing his judgment."


    How very sad, very sad this is their way of thinking. :(

    So please if anyone is reading this learn from Dr Michael Brown and connect with your secular friends on being friend just having a hidden agenda to covert them.

    Can you be Gay and Christian? Michael Brown vs. Harry Knox


    Can you be Gay and Christian?

     
  17. Ariel Anguish Dove

    Ariel Anguish Dove none

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    Update: There is a time of place to let someone know they are sinners but in my experience it is not by shouting it out or having a one on one debate with someone they are sinner if you meet them on the streets. Your Purpose is not to covert them and its why being their friend or just having a friendly talk about the issue instead then just appearing that you know alot of stuff and can debate anyone. As I think it will just lead into more debates and it will just be all about debates because the skeptic are having fun throwing all sort of issues at you.

    It us Christian that need to hear it more often then sinners that we need to repent! Because secular people don't care if they are sinners and going to hell. It is us Christian that need to know the Gospel better not sinners as the Gospel is nothing to them. We are so tuned off that do we care at all when we hear the Gospel now?

    The catholics are right here with us? Anyone gone to try and help them if you know how? What is the Gospel if we keep it to ourselves? Do we think like this?
    Anyone concern over bill Johnson and anyone going to the charismatic section to engage with them?


    Most of us here have wide different views of scripture and that leads to error so conservative are you doing anything about it? :)
     
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