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Loving the Orlando victims and spreading the Word!

Discussion in 'Conservative Christianity' started by Ariel Anguish Dove, Jun 16, 2016.

  1. Ariel Anguish Dove

    Ariel Anguish Dove none

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    As Christians we should show put our names down here and show support! Now we christian will be seen as bigots because there is a church group going up to condemn the funerals! The Wesboro Baptist church is one that speak utter blasphemous things on the Homosexual families who died!

    Yes homosexuality is wrong but it doesn't mean we become haters and basher to those who are or even say things like God did it because they were homosexuals.

    In the eyes of God we are all just as bad of a sinner as someone who is a homosexual.

    This is a sad day for all us who profess that we love Christ
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-the-tragedy-is-that-more-of-them-didnt-die/

    So show your support and put your names down here and if you are able to reach out to those who are gay and be their friend i urge you do so! Show them love with out trying to bash them with scripture just like how Dr Michael brown does it. :)

    If your in the area do something to help the families and show the world we are not like the wesboro church!

    Pray for them perhaps we need that here! :)

    Why do the world show so much care and we don't do anything to show even greater care? Perhaps they are gay so we just want nothing to do with them?

    Ways to help perhaps even set up your own funds so you can give it to them?
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ays-help-orlando-shooting-aftermath/85828690/

    Brings us all Christians to shame!

    Message to LGBT America
    https://askdrbrown.org/library/christian-message-lgbt-americans
    https://stream.org/gay-muslim-terrorist-slaughters-gays-straight-christians-get-blamed/

    Please sign you name for support and spread the word!
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. twinserk

    twinserk Well-Known Member

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    On the contrary, people who support the gay community and fellowship with them are in rebellion against God.

    We are instructed to keep away from those who wantonly break God's law. Paul openly labeled homosexuals as individuals who are filled with all manner of wickedness, envy, deceit, and disobedience.

    Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
    27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
    29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
    30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
    32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

    Are we to be friends with such people? Are we to give our approval and support to them? No.

    1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner - not even to eat with such a person.
    Christians like you really frustrate me, because you're sitting here preaching from the hilltops something that is altogether unbiblical, and against God's will. And before you bring up the Messiah eating and drinking with sinners, please read the verse:

    Mark 2:17 When the Messiah heard it, He saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    He was there to lead them out of darkness and into light, to heal them and bring them out of a life of sin. Not to support and subsidize their wanton mental depravities. He was acting as a doctor, not a long lost buddy.
     
  3. The Portuguese Baptist

    The Portuguese Baptist Centre-right conservative Christian-Democrat

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    Supporting the victims of a massacre is NOT supporting the gay community. It does not matter whether the victims were gay; they were human, and their deaths deserve the same kind of condolences and regret (and also hatred towards the murderer) as would a normal massacre. This massacre is not to be overlooked by Christians simply because the victims were gay.

    Again, expressing condolences is not the same thing as approving of their actions, which indeed wantonly do break God's law.

    But he never said we should regard their lives as inferior, despicable or less valuable. It is not good that they die.

    Yes. (Are all your friends Christian?)

    Approval, no. Support for their actions, no. Support for their lives, yes.

    Wrong. Where does the Bible say that we cannot be friends with homosexuals?

    Take a second look at the verse: ‘[…] not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral […]’. Let us take the NIV, a version with more modern language: ‘[…] that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral […]’. This is not warning against company with all sexually immoral people — only with those who falsely call themselves Christians, and yet indulge in constant sinful lifestyles. It does not mean the people of this world who are immoral.

    Oh, man! If only there were a verse nearby in which Paul would clarify exactly what I have just said… OH WAIT! There is! Exactly the two previous verses (1 Corinthians 5:9-10)! ‘I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral peoplenot at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case, you would have to leave this world. Read the quoted verse immediately after these two, and you will not look like a fool by quoting Paul out of context and making him mean something which he never meant and which he had actually clarified in the previous verses that he did not mean.

    Christians like you really frustrate me, because you're sitting here preaching from the hilltops something that is altogether unbiblical, and against God's will.

    Exactly what is unbiblical about mourning for the lives of innocent people who have been killed, even if they were gay?

    So what? Does that mean we cannot express regret over the lives of sinners who have been killed?

    Honestly, Christians like you annoy me, because you confuse homosexuality with homosexuals. You hate both homosexuality and homosexuals. You think the Bible commands us to hate homosexuals. You are no different from the murderer who started the shooting and killed those homosexuals. You would have done the same. You would have killed them. You approve of what that radical Muslim did. You give reason to the liberals and anti-Christians who accuse Christians of being homophobic. God will judge you for your unjustified hatred. Shame on you!

    ‘Jesus said, “Love your neighbour” (Luke 10:27). It doesn't matter what our neighbour's opinion is on moral or sexual ethics; the command applies. Loving those in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer (LGBTQ) community means, in part, we do not condone acts of persecution against them — we do not excuse violence, injustice, or any behaviour that brings harm.’ (quoted from http://www.gotquestions.org/LGBTQ-persecution.html) I recommend that you read this article in its entirety.
     
  4. twinserk

    twinserk Well-Known Member

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    She wasn't suggesting we express condolences. She suggested we become friends with, and emotionally support them.

    2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    That isn't what Paul says:

    Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Yes, they are all believers.

    I'm not sure what you were trying to say here. Someone's life is made up of their actions. To support someone's life, is to support their actions.

    How about here:

    James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

    1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    In the book of 1st John, he says that they are sharing the gospel to bring people to the faith. And that once converted, they can enjoy fellowship with the church. Hence, those that are not of the faith do no enjoy fellowship.

    1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
    In Acts, Peter states that those that work righteousness are accepted with God. Thus, those that do not work righteousness are rejected.

    Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    You can see from the verses I quoted above, that friendship with the world is forbidden. Thus, Paul must be speaking of something less than fellowship/friendship. Which makes sense, given his statement of "for then must ye needs go out of the world.". It's clear that he is speaking of something that simply cannot be avoided if we are to exist in the midst of a nation full of unbelievers. So let's turn our brains on for a second, and consider whether it's impossible for us to survive among unbelievers, without becoming friends with them. The answer is obviously no. Nothing that perpetuates our survival necessitates being friends with a godless person.

    Do we need to be friends with a godless person in order to eat, have a roof over our heads, maintain a job, run a successful business, or pursue God's Word? No. We do however need to interact with the world on a regular basis for these things to happen. We buy our food from the world, we rent or buy a place to live from the world, we may work at a company owned by the world, we sell a product to the world, and buy supplies from the world.

    This being the case, logic would suggest that these are the things he was speaking about.

    Once again, Paul disagrees with you. He didn't say they were innocent, he said they were guilty:

    Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    I confuse homosexuality with homosexuals? What are you smoking? Am I confusing a murderer with murder as well? Should we punish the act of murder, and let the man go free then?

    Unjustified hatred? God hates them, so take it up with Him.

    Psalms 11:5 God trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence His soul hateth.

    Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
    (Wisdom)​

    The Messiah stated the same, only those that love the Father will be loved in turn.

    John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    And as for your rant about me being no better than the killer in Florida, I'm not even going to grace that with a response.


    Yes, God commands us to love our neighbor as ourselves. What you fail to understand, is what the word love means.

    1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
    John and the Messiah stated that loving others is accomplished by keeping God's law. What is written in God's law in regards to others? Don't steal from them, don't murder them, don't covet their property, don't slander them, etc. So, by keeping the law, we are not sinning against our neighbour. Which scripture defines as love.
     
  5. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    Legalism is not Love.
     
  6. The Portuguese Baptist

    The Portuguese Baptist Centre-right conservative Christian-Democrat

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    Problem?

    Read it in context, and you will see that it refers to specific people who were bringing false doctrine to church. Furthermore, it talks about welcoming them at home, not becoming friends with them. The Bible never prohibits being friends with homosexuals or, for that matter, non-Christians.

    Granted! But that does not mean that it is right to kill them. We are never instructed to kill sinners, nor to approve such acts of killing. As you should know, this death (of which sinners are worthy) is to be inflicted by God, not by us — as it is written in Romans 12:19, which reads: ‘Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.’ Nowhere in the Bible are we instructed to kill sinners or approve of it. Rather, we are instructed to spread the Gospel to them (Matthew 28:18-20), because ‘[God our Saviour] wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth’ (1 Timothy 2:4).

    Furthermore, even you are worthy of death, because ‘all have sinned’ (Romans 3:23) and ‘the wages of sin is death’ (Romans 6:23). So, even you are worthy of death, and not only homosexuals. In fact, you are just as worthy of death as them. However, does that mean that it is OK for you to die? Does that mean that I should not mourn over you? Does that mean I should kill you?

    And is it because you just do not happen to trust in any non-Christian, or because you have imposed, as a matter of principle, that you would never have non-Christian friends? If it is the latter, why? (I personally have a few non-Christian friends who respect me and are trustworthy, and I see no problem with it.)

    I will proceed to explain what I meant. All people have the right to live. By ‘supporting their lives’, I meant supporting and upholding their right to live. We must lament this tragedy which resulted in the deaths of these people, regardless of their sexual orientation. Their sexual orientation does not matter when it comes to defending their lives. Their lives are worth as much as the lives of heterosexuals. This tragedy is just as disastrous as a tragedy which kills the same number of straight people.

    Evidently, we must not support their actions. Their actions are immoral and condemnable, which is absolutely biblically clear. We must never show any sort of endorsement for what they are doing. However, this does not mean that we must despise their lives and overlook such massacres. When their lives are in danger, although we may disagree with them, we ought to strongly defend them.

    The verses you have quoted tell us that we must not love the world or the things that are in the world, but it says nothing about loving the people that are in the world. They are warning against the worldly things — deceit, theft, murder, sexual immorality, etc. —, but not against sinners themselves, who ought to receive our love and help. Friendship with such people is acceptable.

    Such verses do not prohibit fellowship with non-Christians. Nothing is said about it. Your conclusion, which you attempt to retrieve from these verses, is not in them.

    Yes, but, again, friendship with the world does not mean friendship with the people of the world.

    If you acknowledge (as you now have) that Paul is not talking about friendship in 1 Corinthians 5:9-11, then you must no longer utilise 1 Corinthians 5:11 to attempt to show how the Bible prohibits friendship with unbelievers.

    I was speaking of innocence in human terms, not in godly terms. Think about it. If anyone is guilty of breaking any human law, humans have the right to judge him and condemn them. And, if anyone is guilty of breaking any godly law, God has the right to judge him and condemn him. But, if anyone breaks any godly law (which is not also a human law), then humans have no right to judge or condemn, but only God. If anyone breaks a commandment from God, that person is to be judged by God, because he is seen as guilty only in God's eyes, and not in Mankind's eyes. To our eyes (that is, the eyes of society, the government and human laws), that person is innocent, because no human law was broken.

    Let me make an analogy. If two countries have two different sets of laws, breaking a law in Country A (if doing the same would be permitted in Country B) does not give Country B the right to judge or condemn a man who has broken a law which only exists in Country A, because he is innocent in the eyes of Country B. For example, in Portugal, drug consumption and possession for personal use is legal, but not in the United States, meaning that the Portuguese Government has no right to condemn a man who consumes drugs (anywhere), but the United States Government has the right to do it if the same man does the same thing in US soil.

    Similarly, homosexuality is prohibited by God's law but permitted by human law (there are countries in which it is also prohibited, but, to simplify, let us ignore them). Therefore, no human has the right to punish anyone who commits such acts, because they are innocent in our eyes (that is, our eyes as a society — you yourself may see them as guilty [and so do I], but that is irrelevant, because they are no under our authority and we cannot impose on them our own law). As such, it was wrong for that man to kill them. However, they are also under God's law, and it will be right for God (not for us) to kill them when the time comes. The only circumstance in which it would be right for us to kill them would be if God had specifically placed us in charge of accomplishing his will and, thus, of judging and condemning anyone who breaks his law — but he has not done it.

    Your analogy to the murderer fails in that murdering is illegal per government law, but homosexuality is not.

    By the way, just to clarify, we ourselves (as in, you and I) have no right to punish any murderer. Only the government has, because the murderer has broken a law of the government, under whose authority he is. (The murderer, however, is not under our own personal authority, so we have no right to punish him.) The only circumstance in which we would have the right to do so would be if the government employed us to.

    God's ‘hatred’ (which, as you can see, is only partial, if you compare those verses with other ones, such as John 3:16) does not justify your hatred. God has instructed you to love and never to hate.

    Well, you should. Based on your statements, I have just accused you of being willing to kill sinners. You should either accept or reject my accusation.

    You included ‘don't murder them’ in the list (which is correct). Now, if we ought to love our neighbours and if loving them includes not murdering them, does that not mean that we should condemn murder when it happens? Are you showing love by failing to condemn the terrorist attack and even by seemingly supporting it?
     
  7. twinserk

    twinserk Well-Known Member

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    I did read it in context. I'm referring to the principle at work. He says that even blessing someone on their way, makes you a part of what they're doing. So if you bless a homosexual on their path, then you have just involved yourself in sexual immorality.

    I fail to see why you're making this about killing sinners. I responded to the OP's statement that believers should flock to the homosexual community, and emotionally support them in their time of need. Hence my reference to 2 John 1:10, quoted again below. I never stated, implied, or suggested that christians should be out killing people, or wishing people harm. This being the case, I will not be responding to any more of your statements about killing sinners. It is detracting from the discussion, and I'm not going to argue out a statement I never made.

    2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    The idea behind your statement is incorrect. People who repent and turn from evil are no longer sinners, and are thus not punishable for said sin. So you can't just apply a "sinner = death" to anyone and everyone you meet.

    Ezekiel 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

    The key word in your sentence is "I". God sees a problem with it, and thus, I have no friends that are unbelievers.

    Your statement doesn't even make sense. The behaviors and qualities you listed don't exist outside a human host. The world is a collective, made up of the people of the world:

    John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    The Messiah identified the world as people, hence their capacity to hate Him and His disciples.

    It does indeed. The verses state that the faith is given, and to those who accept it, fellowship is extended. Thus, those without faith, are denied fellowship. Similar to me telling someone that if they work for 8 hours, I'll pay them a days wage. My terms for paying a daily wage are working 8 hours. So those that do not work 8 hours are not given a daily wage.

    The bible, and common sense, say your wrong. See the verse above.
     
  8. twinserk

    twinserk Well-Known Member

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    Love is keeping the commandments.

    2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

    John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

    1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    But if you'd like to support your statement with scripture, I'd love to discuss it with you.
     
  9. High Fidelity

    High Fidelity Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Most Christians aren't like the Westboro Baptist Church, but nonetheless, people are getting sad for the wrong reason, in my opinion.

    We can tell them that sure, we don't believe they were killed by God because they're gay, or that God would be happy they're dead, and that may calm some tension, but if we're honest and discuss where unrepentant sinners go, we won't be viewed much differently.

    It's to be expected. Scripture prepared us for it. For being shunned because we choose righteousness over unrighteousness. Even amongst Christians we'll be shunned for holding to the Biblical view, but even in that case we're told that there's the many and the few and the many don't find their way to Heaven.

    So yes, we can patch one wound and open another with different words.

    Pray for the families of the deceased and people in the gay community by all means, but I still think there's to be some distance and Scripture backs that up too(not just about gays, but unrepentant sinners and those that do not heed rebuking in general)
     
  10. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    The Law of Christ is Agape.
    It's the most important thing.
     
  11. twinserk

    twinserk Well-Known Member

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    Huh? I don't see any bible verses...
     
  12. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    --------------
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
  13. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    Love your neighbour like yourself
    1 Corinthians 13
    The good Samaritan
    Forgive as you are forgiven
    Turn the other cheek
    the 2 Great equal Commandments of Agape
    Care for the needy
    etcetera...
     
  14. twinserk

    twinserk Well-Known Member

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    Alright, you're not replying with anything more than half sentences. If you'd like to put some coherent thoughts together, then we can discuss it.
     
  15. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    Don't pretend you don't understand my post.
    If you want to live and post and what not by strict rules, that's fine by me, but don't demand it from others, please, thank you.
    Have a nice day and God bless you.
     
  16. The Portuguese Baptist

    The Portuguese Baptist Centre-right conservative Christian-Democrat

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    I cannot read that anywhere in the posted verse. Are we now to withdraw our blessing from others? The verse talks about receiving people at our homes, and it does not even mean all non-Christians. Are we to bless Christians only? Are we to exclude our blessing from non-Christians? Of course not! Jesus said the exact opposite, in Luke 6:27-28, as you may read: ‘But to you who are listening I say: love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who ill-treat you.’ Who will curse us and hate us more than non-Christians? As you can see, even homosexuals are to receive our blessing, especially because they are one of the groups who criticise us Christians the most.

    By that standard, Jesus is commanding us, in Luke 6:27-28, to become involved in cursing others. See what formidable contradiction you have just created!

    I was making this about killing sinners because it seemed — although never explicitly — as though you were suggesting that it is OK for us to kill homosexuals, and because you never denied it. When I accused you by saying, ‘You are no different from the murderer who started the shooting and killed those homosexuals. You would have done the same. You would have killed them. You approve of what that radical Muslim did’, all you said in reply was, ‘I'm not even going to grace that with a response’, adding to the ambiguity. Furthermore, you even quoted verses which say that homosexuals deserve death, adding even more to this ambiguity and concern.

    As for emotionally supporting homosexuals in their time of need, you should be aware that it is biblical. Just read what Jesus says in Luke 6:27-36 about loving your enemies (notice how no ‘trying to save them’ condition clause is added to this command; notice how the command includes no restriction whatsoever, neither for the Christian nor for the enemy; finally, think about how homosexuals may be regarded as ‘enemies’ of conservative Christians like us and read the passage whilst applying it to them):

    ‘But to you who are listening I say: love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who ill-treat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

    ‘If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.’


    ‘Do good to those who hate you’. This includes mourning over tragedies like this one, comforting the relatives of the dead and lending emotional support to them. This is doing unto them ‘as [we] would have them do to [us]’.

    Actually, we are all still sinners, even after we have repented, because we often sin (the difference being that we repent and realise that it is wrong). Notice how Paul admits, in 1 Timothy 1:15, that he is still a sinner at the moment he writes these words: ‘Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners – of whom I am the worst [not “I was”, but “I am”].’ We are still sinners. We still sin. You still sin. You cannot deny this.

    Except God doesn't have a problem with it, because he never tells us not to become friends with non-Christians.

    If we are told to hate the world and, elsewhere, to love the people in the world, it is clear that they must be two different things.

    Such verses say nothing of the sort. The concept of ‘faith’ is not even mentioned.

    @twinserk, I would now like to approach a slightly different subject, whilst attempting to make you reflect on something. I have just now noticed that you have posted 1039 messages, but have only received 14 likes. This is an extremely low likes-to-messages proportion, which is very unusual. As you can see, no-one here is agreeing with you that we should ignore this tragedy in which homosexuals have died. The fact that the things you regularly say are apparently disliked by so many people, including many Christians, should prompt you to think about whether or not they really are correct. Granted, popularity does not mean accuracy; often, the least supported ones are the correct ones. However, to have such low agreement and such high, almost unanimous, disagreement with what you say, it should cause you to reflect on whether the things you said are correct. Please do not take this as an offence. I am only trying to make you reflect on it. If too many people disagree with us, that means we probably should give the matter some serious consideration, especially to the opposite side, because the lack of popularity increases the probability that you are wrong. Please consider what I have said — not only on this matter, but maybe also on others about which you have found little to no support at all for your stances. Reach your own conclusion. Thank you.
     
  17. twinserk

    twinserk Well-Known Member

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    I can see where you're coming from, but you are once again confusing terms.

    Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

    Love is defined as keeping the law, don't sin against your enemies.

    1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    You might consider that the Messiah's definition of blessing and good is different than yours. Give me one example of Him, or any of His disciples giving their enemies money, cutting their grass, being their friend, or emotionally supporting them. Praying for those who persecute you is much different than blessing someone's godless lifestyle. "Father, I pray that they see Your light" is miles away from "Go forth and prosper my queer friend!".

    As I said, those who repent and stop sinning are no longer sinners. If Paul identified himself as a sinner, then he was still sinning. Just because you're still a sinner, doesn't give you the right to go around and label everyone else as the same.

    Yes, He does. Once again:

    James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

    We are commanded to love others as we would be loved ourselves. Which I have already explain to be biblically defined as keeping the law (e.i. not sinning against them).

    1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    You are redefining love, and then using that definition to justify worldly friendships.

    I'm not sure how it can be spelled out any clearer. John said "We share the gospel with you, so that you may also have fellowship with us". Thus, rather obviously, those without the gospel are not granted fellowship.

    If I give you a membership card to my gym and say, "I'm giving this to you, so you can have access to my exercise equipment". It's obvious that those without said membership card, don't have access to said equipment.
     
  18. The Portuguese Baptist

    The Portuguese Baptist Centre-right conservative Christian-Democrat

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    Love, when you think about it, often means much more than just breaking no laws. What do you mean when you say that you love your wife, or your children, or your parents, or your friends? Does it really only mean, ‘I never sin against them’? I am not implying anything. Just think about it.

    Meanwhile, even if you mean that love is not breaking any law, are you loving homosexuals when you refuse to mourn over their deaths? Are you valuing their lives that way? Are you loving them by not valuing their lives, so as to ignore their murders? Or are you, instead, despising their lives as worthless and the massacre as irrelevant? Is that love? Once again, think about it.

    Furthermore, you are talking about love, but do not forget that also part of the commandment says ‘bless them’.

    How about that time when Jesus reprimanded Peter for cutting the ear of a Roman soldier? How about, in the same instance, the moment when Jesus immediately healed the soldier's ear? Was that not supporting his enemy in their time of need? How about when Jesus begged his Father to forgive the sins of those who had crucified him? Was he not trying to help them?

    Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! I never said anything about blessing their godless lifestyle! Listen, my brother. I disagree with homosexuality. It is morally incorrect and should not be performed. However, even homosexuals have the right to live, and we must defend their lives as we defend ours. Blessing their lifestyle was never the question; the matter is blessing them.

    My personal message to the LGBT community would never be, ‘Go forth and prosper’ just like that (although it is admittedly ambiguous). Rather, it would be something more along these lines:

    ‘As you know, we disagree on many issues — notably, the moral validity of the practising of homosexual acts. As you know, I believe that what you guys do and endorse is morally incorrect and, as such, I could never endorse your organisation or your activities. I disagree with you. Furthermore, as you already know, I will keep on fighting the opposite battle to that which you are fighting: whereas you attempt to legalise same-sex marriage, I will fight to make it remain unrecognised; whereas you fight to permit adoption by same-sex couples, I will fight to make adoption restricted to heterosexual couples. I expect that you will continue to recognise my democratic right to hold my personal opinion to disagree with you, as I recognise yours and fight also to maintain your own right to defend your own interests and beliefs — even though I do not agree with them. None of this has changed: my critique against your sexual acts — which I characterise as immoral and impure — is maintained.

    ‘However, I completely disagree with anyone who attempts to kill any one of you, for whatever reason. You are human. You have the right to live. Your life is utterly precious to me and must never be purposefully terminated — especially if the only reason to do so is something so stupid such as disagreements about irrelevant issues over which, instead, we should all just agree to disagree. Being homosexual and performing homosexual acts is not illegal and should not be. Whilst I believe that it is morally unacceptable to God, I also believe that it will be a problem between you and God alone. I have no right to kill you. No state has the right to deem homosexual acts as illegal; you are free to perform them. I disagree with you, as you know, regarding their morality, but I believe that you have the right to do it. No-one has the right to kill you for that reason — or for any other reason, for that matter.

    ‘Defending your right to live — even though you are homosexual, which in nothing reduces the inherent preciousness of your lives as human beings —, I absolutely condemn the attacks in Orlando, which killed scores of people and wounded many more, (almost) all of whom belong to your community. I hereby, therefore, express my sympathy for you, as a community (because of the members whom you have lost due to murder) and for the relatives of those killed. I mourn with you the lives of those who died, regardless of their sexual orientation or political/religious beliefs. I pray that this sort of attack may never be repeated, and I will keep on fighting to prevent such massacres in the future, regardless of which communities may be affected next time, and also regardless of the sexual orientation or beliefs of the victims. I hope you will also mourn for me too, if I am ever killed for similar reasons, even though you disagree with me on certain issues, just as I am mourning for you.’

    Do you find anything wrong with this message? If not, and if everyone else in this thread can agree with its content, then we can just call this discussion off and declare it a great misunderstanding.

    Do you honestly believe that you do not still sin nowadays? I recognise that I am still a sinner, and one of the worst ones.

    I have answered that already. Friendship of the world means friendship with the things of the world, not sinners. It would not make sense otherwise.

    Hmm… You are correct in that part; I was wrong. :sorry: I should have opened my own NIV Bible to check, which presents the same in more comprehensible language.

    However, it is likely that the type of fellowship mentioned there is not the same thing as normal friendship. Perhaps it somehow refers to fellowship specifically within the church — that is, the kind of fellowship we enjoy in church, as opposed to other kinds. It does not seem very reasonable to me that God would prohibit us from being friends with non-Christians; no passage is ever that clear. Surely, we may be (and are) warned against such friends and are advised to be wise in choosing friends, but this is no actual hindrance to being friends with non-Christians. I have a few who have often helped me when I needed them, when it would be, for one reason or another, more difficult to talk to church members. However, I do admit that I obviously favour friendship within the church.
     
  19. twinserk

    twinserk Well-Known Member

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    You are once again mixing definitions. Biblically, love is keeping the commandments, and not sinning against others. So when we are commanded to love our neighbor, that is what is being referred to. My personal definition of the word does not supercede the scriptural definition, and thus redefine God's command.

    Like I said, perhaps your definition of bless is off. You were advocating that it means extending them friendship, and perhaps financial and emotional support. You can see that the Messiah blessed His enemies by forgiving them, and healing them when they were wounded by one of His disciples. If your dog mauls someone, are you blessing them by paying for their medical treatment, or are you merely fulfilling your obligation as owner of the dog? The Messiah was not their friend, and he did not "bless" them in the manner you have described in previous posts.

    Yes, I find a great deal wrong with the underlined portions. Homosexuality should be illegal. What does it say in the Father's prayer? Thy kingdom come to earth, as it is in Heaven. Any godly kingdom or country should seek to implement and enforce the laws of God here on Earth, just as they are in Heaven.

    As it is, most, if not all countries, have rejected the laws of God and have instead allowed wickedness to run rampant. I'm a little surprised that you would say such a thing is right, so perhaps I misunderstood?

    No, I said no such thing. I'm merely stating that you can't assume everyone is a sinner, just because most people are.

    It makes perfect sense. How can I be friends with my television? Or friends with theft? Or hang out with murder? What you are suggesting makes no sense.

    God does forbid normal friendship with the world. As I said above, I fail to understand how you continue to justify your believe that the world is some inanimate title given to disembodied human behaviors. Scripture has demonstrated that the world has the capacity to hate, and that we have the capacity to be friends with it/them. So you tell me, what in this world had the capacity to hate the Messiah and His disciples, if not human beings? What in the world can we be friends with, if not people?

    You can see this pattern all through scripture. When Israel took the land, God commanded them to kill everyone. Why? So that they wouldn't corrupt the children of Israel with false Gods and unrighteousness. So they wouldn't erode the integrity of the nation.

    Exodus 23:33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.

    Deuteronomy 7:2 And when thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of God be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
    King David confirms:

    Psalms 26:4 I have not sat with vain persons, neither will I go in with dissemblers. 5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.
    The churches in Revelation were chastised because they tolerated the presence of Jezebel:

    Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
    They merely tolerated her presence among them. And as you just read in the OT, their mere presence will result in them undermining your holiness, and the holiness of your children.

    This is a well documented fact. You become like the people you're around. They shape your thoughts, decisions, and outlook on life. Which is precisely why God doesn't want His children being friends with the children of the Devil.

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
     
  20. The Portuguese Baptist

    The Portuguese Baptist Centre-right conservative Christian-Democrat

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    Well, the definition of the word seems to go beyond just breaking no law (http://biblehub.com/greek/25.htm and http://biblehub.com/greek/26.htm):

    agapaó: to love
    Original Word: ἀγαπάω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: agapaó
    Phonetic Spelling: (ag-ap-ah'-o)
    Short Definition: I love
    Definition: I love, wish well to, take pleasure in, long for; denotes the love of reason, esteem.

    agapé: love, goodwill
    Original Word: ἀγάπη, ης, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: agapé
    Phonetic Spelling: (ag-ah'-pay)
    Short Definition: love
    Definition: love, benevolence, good will, esteem; plur: love-feasts.​

    No, that was not exactly what I was advocating. I was just replying to your statement: ‘He [John] says that even blessing someone on their way, makes you a part of what they're doing.’

    Gosh! :openmouth: I honestly cannot believe that you endorse the criminalisation of homosexuality! Tell me, then: why do you think it should be criminalised? Solely because the Bible argues against it? In that case, what do you think gives you the right to impose biblical standards on the entire population of your country? Do you not believe in freedom of religion?

    Actually, it says, ‘Thy kingdom come; thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.’

    Evidently, you are misinterpreting the verse in question. Read around it. Do you see anything related to governments or civil powers? Of course not! Nowhere else in the Bible are we told this.

    Then, what does this mean? Evidently, we have to look at context. Contextually speaking, the passage talks about our own personal relationship with God. Allowing God's will to be done means that it should be done in our hearts, and not governmentally imposed by force.

    Surely you know one of the basic rules for interpreting unclear passages: ‘The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly’ (http://www.grace.org.uk/faith/bc1689/1689bc01.html). With that in mind, you may remember the passage in which Jesus asks that the Father's will be done instead of his own. And yet, can you find a single command in Scripture for us to attempt to impose God's law across the nations?

    No, you understood me correctly. We have no right to impose Christian laws on others. We must respect other religions (including, for this matter, atheism and agnosticism, which allow for homosexuality), which includes permitting their free existence and practices. Just as we want our religion to be respected, we have to respect others (Luke 6:31).

    I would have a hard time believing that there is a single Christian who does not sin often.

    It makes sense if you take it less literally. Being friends with such things means approving of them, or even performing them.

    The word ‘world’ may refer, not exactly to the people of the world, but to the immoral and godless value system taught by the world. This is what it means to not be friends with the world: avoiding such sinful lifestyles. You might benefit from reading this article: http://www.gotquestions.org/do-not-love-the-world.html.

    You are correct that hanging out with sinful people tends to help us sin as well. However, this does not mean that we should abstain from contact with such people. I know people who, although not being Christian, are good people otherwise, with whom it is pleasant and useful to be. They respect me and my beliefs; they avoid swearing or talking about immoral things in my presence, out of respect for me; it is OK to be friends with such people. And, of course, I choose my friends wisely, so that those who swear too much, for instance, will be excluded.
     
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