Love and Control

[JRSut1000]

In referencing back to another thread, it seemed it was going a bit off topic (thanks to me and another specific poster whom I disagreed with) so I figured I'd start a similar thread addressing the particular issue of love and contol within marriage. Can they co-exist? How much of our partner should we try to 'change'? It's so easy to say 'well s/he should be doing this/that' and try to micromanage our spouse and his/her decisions. How much of a spouse's decisions should be an 'us' decision and what should be left up to him/her to decide for themselves?

Disclaimer: ya'll know where I come from in marital views, but never ever do I view leadership as positive if controlling or micromanaging the spouse is considered part of that 'role'.

 

[MessianicMommy]

IMHO, control issues (micro-managing or macro-managing) is a symptom that something is seriously wrong with the dynamic of both partners.

 

[JRSut1000]

I used to think that control was always on the part of the abuser only, but now I'm seeing that women can be enablers as well and think its a normal dynamic. I'm not saying abuse is the woman's fault, please dont hear me that way. But when a woman gives up ALL her decisions and person to please her husband, then this isnt godly structure no matter what marriage dynamic they want to call it.

I dont want to pinpoint any particular users here, but when a husband feels he needs to tell his wife what to wear (despite that sometimes we all make silly clothing decisions)...it kinda sends red flags out.

I know in the other thread I opened up about myself a little bit. I have always been a more passive personality (unlike my mother who has a very strong overtaking type of personality). I never really spoke up for what I wantd and I never really took much control of my life. I kinda just let life pass me by a lot, let other people speak up for me, and never took much responsibility for my own life.

I was so glad to have met a man who is a good leader and who loves the Lord and truly loves me as well. He helped me to 'grow up' in a way. I guess you could say i was afraid of making decisions or taking big steps (such as driving!), but he pushed me to get out there and get on the road. It helped give me some confidence in my ability to do adult things. He also taught me how to do bills and insisted that I start doing them so that if he wasnt there (which he wasnt all the time cuz of his job) I would have no troubles making payments. And now I'm the one who does the bills and I have no problem with that.

I still have problems with indecision and standing up for myself in what I want or feel is best when it comes to decisions. And yes, sometimes I have to do this even with my husband cuz we arent always going to agree on whats 'the best course of action' concerning this or that. Oftentimes I just give in figuring he knows best in most matters (he's older and more experienced in most things of life), but I'm realizing more and more that God gave me wisdom too and a personality and giftings that are different from that of my husband and I and to not use those or to dismiss them would be foolishness.

Anyways, thats my 'short' take on things, lol.

 

[Puptart]

IMHO, control issues (micro-managing or macro-managing) is a symptom that something is seriously wrong with the dynamic of both partners.

I agree.

How much of our partner should we try to 'change'?

Umm... none?

People are who they are. You marry a person for who they are, not who they "could" be some day in the future if they change a whole bunch of stuff you don't like, you disagree with, or that you think isn't good for them, or if you think they can be "more" than what they are.

Thinking like that is extremely demeaning to a spouse.. that can take its toll on people over time in a very hardcore way, always thinking they're not good enough because their spouse wants them to "change".

Change isn't a bad thing, but demanding or expecting it certainly can be, though keep in mind I'm not talking about changing major things (like if a person has an addiction to drugs or something of that nature) or negative things that cropped up during the course of the marriage that did not exist when you married the person -- but even these things require less "demand/expectation" of change and more communication and positive outlooks for the future. Demanding change can be an extremely negative thing, even if the person intends it to be positive.

It's so easy to say 'well s/he should be doing this/that' and try to micromanage our spouse and his/her decisions. How much of a spouse's decisions should be an 'us' decision and what should be left up to him/her to decide for themselves?

All decisions in my marriage are "us" decisions, there is no such thing as an "I" decision. That doesn't mean we always do absolutely everything in life together and that we don't have separate interests, but it means when we have a decision to be made, we always consult the other person even if it was originally a decision that could be viewed as "only" impacting one person. The fact is you never know when a decision might impact the other person, so we always consult on everything. We don't spend a dime without consulting the other, we don't commit to engagements for one or both of us without consulting the other, and so on.

I can't imagine having a very good marriage if we didn't operate in this manner to be frank.

The only time there would ever be an "I" decision rather than an "us" decision would be if my husband said he had no input to put toward a situation and I was free to decide one way or another over things. And vice versa.

 

[JRSut1000]

I guess what I mean is, some decisions are obviously 'together' decisions but some decisions are 'this is me' decisions. Like going to teh store and getting chocolate chip cookies, we dont need to discuss that with each other. Or what I'm going to wear that day, do we need to check with each other what to wear? Most likely not! I know these sound like silly examples, but there are those who think that telling their spouse what to/what not to wear is their job. Eeks! I mean, I guess if I'm wearing a dress that has a spot or slit in the back of it, I'd want hubby to say something or if he's wearing something really super wrinkly to work, I'll prob say something. But to feel we need to take OWNERSHIP (thats really the word I'm getting at) of our spouse's life...this is what I feel is dangerous.

 

[LinkH]

'Control' has a really negative connotation. Generally, if a spouse is a micromanager of the other spouse, that can be an oppressive situation to live under.

But I wouldn't say all control is necessarily bad. I was watching one of those shows about tribes where the girls marry as teenagers. If she married a man several years older, he might have to give her a lot of direction about things. There are also some really undisciplined people out there who need structure to operate. I sure am glad my wife is not like that. She is diligent and takes care of things. If a man were married to a wife with little self-discipline who stayed home and didn't keep things clean or feed the kids and he made lists of things for her to do, for example, I'm not going to condemn him. I'm glad I don't live in a situation like that. Someone might call it 'controlling' but every couple is different.

An elder of the church is to be the husband of one wife and rule his house well. Elders are to be examples to the flock, so apparently ruling the house well and taking responsibility for it is something that husbands of one wives should emulate. That's going to be different for different people.

 

[JRSut1000]

Link, not saying you're wrong but let me ask you the reverse question. What if a wife lived with a man who was undisciplined? Is control 'good' only when its the man with an undisciplined wife?

 

[LinkH]

Or what I'm going to wear that day, do we need to check with each other what to wear? Most likely not! I know these sound like silly examples, but there are those who think that telling their spouse what to/what not to wear is their job. .

It could be an issue if the couple has different ideas about modesty. Of course, my wife will tell me if she thinks a shirt doesn't look good on me. She's tried to talk me into wearing pink and peach colored shirts in the past, but I don't care for either color .

 

[LinkH]

Link, not saying you're wrong but let me ask you the reverse question. What if a wife lived with a man who was undisciplined? Is control 'good' only when its the man with an undisciplined wife?

That is a more sticky issue, and it would have to be handled with a lot of grace and humility, but discussion of it, the way I would discuss it, would be considered off-topic on this forum. Generally, discussion of passages of scripture directed at wives responsibilities have been deemed off topic in this forum.

 

[mkgal1]

But to feel we need to take OWNERSHIP (thats really the word I'm getting at) of our spouse's life...this is what I feel is dangerous.

I agree. There is a profound reason (IMO) behind God giving us free will. I believe that control (selfish ambition type of control---stifling the other's growth and individuality and creativity) is the direct opposite of genuine love.

 

[JRSut1000]

I guess my point is asking the question is semi-rhetorical. Control of the other spouse is not of God. There is no scripture that says 'Control your spouse'. I think its when one spouse feels they HAVE TO control, manipulate, or micromanage the other spouse and that they are 'right' all the time, it sounds really dangerous. I know there are woman who do find it easier to just go along with whatever the husband wants and they lose themselves in the process but think its 'holy'. And yes, there are men too who feel it easier to just say 'yes dear' all the time to their wives. I find this willing subordination demeaning because one should never give up who God made them to be, even for a spouse.

 

[mkgal1]

Exactly.

Most passages that deal with someone "stopping their ears" (like the Pharisees) say to "warn them once....and then a second time"(like Titus 2)...and "after that have nothing to do with them". That's dealing with a sin issue (being divisive)....but, most things we deal with daily aren't sin issues---they are people-being-individuals issues. Even sin issues are left up to the individual, however (ultimately). If someone believes that their way of doing things is the right way....and they impose that on their spouse....I've heard it said that makes one obsolete or not necessary. I believe God created us unique for a good purpose.

 

[SearchingStudent]

I have a VERY dominant personality. I am a "take charge" type of person, who speaks her mind and in a lot of ways am a control freak. With my husband, who can be rather passive, I've had to dial it WAY back. Even though I've dialed it back, it doesn't change the fact that I'm also VERY independent. I tend to do what I want, when I want and how I want. So...I've had to learn to ask instead of tell, communicate w/o demands, and let my husband take control of certain things.
It's worked for 15 years now. He's a lot more willing to speak his mind and I'm able to give up a lot of control. It hasn't been easy but it works.

Now...for one to completely dominate the other...that's just wrong. That word we can't mention does not mean being a doormat or the other partner being a micromanager.

Micromanaging and making ALL the decisions seems to be exhausting to me, and I'm far too lazy for that...

 

[SilkRainn]

I used to think that control was always on the part of the abuser only

And there I was thinking the slave owner/slave comparison was harsh. I'm really not that bad. I'm very sweet, appreciative, and romantic with my wife. I think there's a general sense that anyone who controls is some sort of aggressor. That's not always true. I entered my relationship knowing I would be head of house, but the responsibility of control and order came from her reactions and requests, not my wants. I have hundreds of little examples that would make this obvious to anyone.

So if she eggs me on into these things, am I really the one shaping it? Few small examples. We get ready to go on vacation, she never planned on boarding for the cat. I have to spend a goof chunk of the night before we leave reading websites and calling businesses finding a place for the cat to stay. No luck, so I resort to calling friends. We find 1 friend who lives far out. I have to wake up extra early to drive the cat out, our first day of vacation is spent with me super tired and us worrying about the cat being eaten by their two dogs. I say nothing but she knows I was frustrated and tells me to remind her next time. guess what shows up on the honey-do list, and guess if we have a better vacation next time because of it. With clothes, other than the high heels/dressing too cold stuff, she likes telling me what to wear on date nights and vacations because if I like it she feels really sexy and it adds to the night.

If she's dependent on me for control, that fine because I'm dependent on her for many other things. We rely on each other for a lot of things. Show me a person who does not need any dependence, and I'll show you a person who never needs to worry about marriage. We're delighted to be dependent on each other.

Not everyone has to be compatible with everyone else. My wife would not be compatible with someone who was less authoritative than I am. I was less authoritative before, and its only improved and been more loving and more romantic since she changed me. If that wouldn't work out for any other woman, that's fine with me.

 

[JRSut1000]

I just know for a lot of women (including myself) the dependence dynamic can be taken too far. Not saying physical abuse is involved, but its easy for a passive personality to lose themselves by giving up to the 'authority' of someone else. It's definitely a balance and only the couple can know between themselves (with the Lord's help of course) if their dynamic is whole and healthy. In experience and insight into what I've seen, both too much independence is unhealthy as is too much dependence.

 

[tannicv2]

You know... I could go really wild on this topic. Therefore for the my sanity as well as others. So I'm going to take a note of it and let it go the way it's going.

 

[SilkRainn]

You know... I could go really wild on this topic. Therefore for the my sanity as well as others. So I'm going to take a note of it and let it go the way it's going.

I think it's a subject that needs more input. It's rarely brought up directly. I'm interested in your opinion.

 

[LinkH]

JRSUtt1000,

I can't find where the Bible says, "Thou shalt not control people."

As a parent, is it better to have kids who go to church and are 'under control' and sit nicely there when they are supposed to, or kids that are out of their parent's control, walking on the back of the pews during the sermon, running around and screaming?

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

Enablement and control are on the opposite sides of the same coin. Controllers have little to no motivation to change for the better due to the tacit approval of the enabler. Short of physical violence, how can anyone control you, or treat you like a doormat, if you don't allow it?

It's a lot like waiting for your jerk of a boss to change for the better on his/her own, allowing your bitterness and resentment to grow while not taking a stand or adequately asserting yourself due to fear of loss. As long as you put up with the status quo, can you realistically expect things to change?

In relationships, enablers tend to either continue to live a lie or quit, the pot calling the stove black.

 

[SearchingStudent]

JRSUtt1000,

I can't find where the Bible says, "Thou shalt not control people."

As a parent, is it better to have kids who go to church and are 'under control' and sit nicely there when they are supposed to, or kids that are out of their parent's control, walking on the back of the pews during the sermon, running around and screaming?

That sort of control is taught. It is not the same as micromanaging another adult's life, right down to what clothes to wear.

I raised a house full of kids. I did not "control" them. I taught them, modeled correct behavior and corrected when needed.

I am a married adult. I do not need nor want someone to tell me what to do, what to wear, what to eat, etc. on any given day.

The goal of "controlling" children is to turn them into independent, functioning adults in 18 years. The goal of "controlling" an adult is to foster a dependent relationship that does not leave any room for personal growth.