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Looks like there was a Pre-Earth Life

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Peter1000, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    We read in Genesis 1:26-27
    Genesis 1:26-27 King James Version (KJV)
    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    So God created man, male and female on the 6th creation day.

    Now read Genesis 2:5
    Genesis 2:5 King James Version (KJV)
    5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

    This scripture is obviously after Genesis 1:26-27 when God created man, male and female created He them.
    So why does this scripture that is after Genesis 1:26-27 say that there is not a man to till the ground? IOW, no man is found on the earth, after man, male and female were created by God in Genesis 1:26-27? Why is that?

    THE BIG QUESTION: WHERE WAS MAN, MALE AND FEMALE CREATED IN GENESIS 1:26-27?
    They were obviously not created on the earth, because Genesis 2:5 says they were not.

    Now read Genesis 2:6-7
    Genesis 2:6-7 King James Version (KJV)
    6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
    7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    So now the Lord God (is that the same as God in Genesis 1?) creates man from the dust of the ground (earth) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. This is all after Genesis 1:26-27 creation of man, male and female created He them.
    and after Genesis 2:5 where there was no man found on the earth.
    And now comes a second creation of man, now from the dust of the ground. This man was Adam.

    STILL, THE BIG QUESTION: WHERE DID THE GENESIS 1:26-27 CREATION TAKE PLACE? WE KNOW IT WAS NOT ON THE EARTH PER GENESIS 2:5. AND WE KNOW THAT THE GENESIS 2:6-7 CREATION WAS ON THE EARTH.

    The Christian church does not believe that there was a pre-earth life. According to these 3 scriptures, there was a place that God created man, male and female in Genesis 1:26-27. I believe that place was in heaven, and proves that there was a pre-earth life before man was created on earth per Genesis 2:6-7. It is confirmed by Genesis 2:5 that after the creation of Genesis 1, there was still no man on the earth, until Genesis 2:6-7.

    How would you explain this?
     
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  2. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain Supporter

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    God created Adam and Eve on Xandar. Are you just now learning this?
     
  3. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are two distinct creation stories. Not two creation events. It's a bit like trying to say that there are four Jesus Christs because there are four Gospels.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  4. Uber Genius

    Uber Genius "Super Genius"

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    It is important to use commentaries when first studying the Bible. Looking at the text and mapping it as to the main idea and outline. We see the that the main idea of Gen 2 is found in verse four. It serves as a title. We have a retelling of chapter one. We see that the earth and heavens are described as being created in one not 6 days. So immediately we know we are getting a different perspective that in chapter 1. The second account focuses on man, the first barely mentions man. So we shouldn't assume that the accounts are consecutive. It is a retelling from a different perspective.

    "
    Once again, sequence is not about time. Events are arranged to show truth about humanity in relationship to God, the animals, and the world. Chapter 1 told us man was created in God’s image, given dominion over the earth, and told to be fruitful and multiply. What does that mean, and how are we to understand it? By starting—not ending—with the creation of man, the author is able to show many things, among them:

    • Man is made from dust. He does not evolve from something else and no other being is used to create him; there is nothing else.
    • Vegetation is for man’s food and pleasure and to teach obedience—he is creature, not creator, and must learn to relate to God.
    • The animals are created so man will know his special status—that he’s made for more. He doesn’t come from them, they are brought to him and he names and rules them.
    Look at the two stories like you would the four gospels. Similar topics but vastly different perspectives.
     
  5. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    The bible often makes "statements" (verses) about something in general and then later restates and/or gives additional details about something stated earlier ... nothing new here.
     
  6. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    How do you interpret Genesis 2:5?

    What do you make of the Creator in Genesis 1 = God (Hebrew is Elohim)
    and the Creator in Genesis 2 =The Lord God (Hebrew is Yahweh/Elohim)
    Genesis 2:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
    2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

    2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

    3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
     
  7. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    See my post #6 and respond to those questions? Thanks.
     
  8. Uber Genius

    Uber Genius "Super Genius"

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    So the reason I suggested commentaries and textual outlines was to avoid surveys by other Christians such as myself. Why think I'm an expert?

    That said, chapters and verses were not in the original text. The first account seems to end in 2:3 and a more natural beginning for chapter two would be 2:4.

    I have technical reasons for rejecting what is known as the JEPD theory. Therefore my position on the differing language is twofold that a:an editor is working in chapter 2:4 and following, and b: Elohim in 1:26 has a broader meaning than just YHWY.

    Elohim has a broad lexical range meaning beings who's natural abode or residence is not on Earth. Angels and demons and the souls of the dead and YHWY are all called Elohim but there is only one YHWY. So there could be the idea a a larger heavenly host involved with YHWY creating, but there is not enough data to determine. It could be editing by a later scribe that changed. Again there are hundreds of commentaries on these topics by ancient near eastern Semitic scholars.

    We forget that the Bible wasn't written for us but an ancient culture 3000+ years removed from our own.
     
  9. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    How about the interpretation of 2:5? Especially "and there was not a man to till the ground"?
     
  10. Uber Genius

    Uber Genius "Super Genius"

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    If Gen. 1-2:3 is one creation account and Gen. 2:4ff is another focused on man in relation to his world then what day or time period would gen 2:5 relate to in The Gen 1 account?

    It would have to correspond with a time before day 3 right?

    So no shrubs had been brought forth from the land or animals, or man created yet.
     
  11. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Since we are at the beginning of a completely different creation narrative, everything in Genesis 1 doesn't apply here. This is a brand new creation story, with different focus, and a different series of events. In Genesis 1 the focus is chiefly on the orderliness of creation, the days of creation forming a framework. The Genesis 2 creation story is instead chiefly focused on man.

    Again, these are two completely different stories and are completely unrelated to one another.

    The ancient editor(s) and redactor(s) of the Penteteuch who assembled the texts chose to include two completely distinct creation stories. Obviously they thought there was value in having both, instead of just having a single creation story. This has led to some complications from those who want to try and create a perfectly harmonious account, which was the origin for the Lilith theory among some Jewish sages in the middle ages, that Adam had two wives, the first was Lilith who became the succubus-like demon (c.f. lilu) because she didn't want to submit herself to Adam, and as such God then created Eve, Adam's second wife, from his rib.

    But the simplest explanation is that these are two completely different creation stories, with completely different points to be made. Neither is intended to be a literal play-by-play in any historical or scientific sense; they are stories with a point.

    The first creation story is about the grand narrative of creation: God's ordered creation, using days as a poetic framework. That this is poetry can be seen in the use of the repeated refrain, "there was evening and then morning, the Nth day"; the days of creation form a parallel, the first three and then the second three. The first three days involve separation and making space, with the second three days being the filling of these spaces with creatures. That's why we see on the first day the separation of light and dark, and then on the fourth day the creation of sun, moon, and stars; or how in the second day there is the separation of the waters below and the waters above (ancient near eastern cosmology thought there was a literal dome of water above the earth) and thus on the fifth day God creates things which swim in the seas and fly in the air. Etc.

    The ultimate creative work is the making of human beings, who are made in the image and likeness of God, to reflect His divine glory and act as His stewards on earth. If we were to compare Genesis 1 to a temple construction story, God builds the structure, then fills the structure with all the various sacred vessels, and at the very end, to consecrate the temple, places the divine image in it.

    The second creation story has nothing to do with any of that. It's a brand new story, with an entirely new theme, with entirely different focus. The entire focus is instead on man's priestly responsibility, so God creates man first, then makes a garden for man to tend, then makes animals for man to care for--man is then given a wife and the two of them are to care for the garden--for the plants and animals there, they are the caretakers of God's creation. And so when this story flows into the entire Edenic account, of the cravenly and deceptive serpent, humanity's rebellion, fall, shame, and ultimately their expulsion; it all makes sense in the context of the narrative. Human beings created from the earth to care for the earth have misused their moral agency and no longer enjoy the full benefits of what God had desired for them.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  12. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Give me 2 examples of "the bible often makes statements and them adds additional details later", similar to Genesis 1 & 2. Thank you.
     
  13. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Your interpretation of Genesis 1 & 2 is one of many interpretations, and I thank you for that.

    My interpretation is also one of many, and I believe it is a reasonable interpretation.

    In Genesis 1, God/Elohim creates the entire universe including man, male and female, and this is a spiritual creation before the natural universe, including man, male and female, is created in Genesis 2.

    That is why after Genesis 1 there is a rather astounding verse (Genesis 2:5) which states among other things that there is not a man to till the ground. IOW man, male and female were created somewhere besides on earth in Genesis 1.

    Then in Genesis 2:6, The Lord God/Yahweh Elohim starts the creation of the phyical man and plants, and animals, and finally woman.
    And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air.

    This interpretation fits the text nicely and gives a reasonable explanation for Revelation 12. Now we know who participated in the war in heaven before the earth was populated by the natural man. Before Eden and gives the reason why lucifer/satan was in the garden of Eden on the earth.
     
  14. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    OR Genesis 2:5 is telling us that the creation in Genesis 1 was not the natural creation of the earth and plants and animals and man. Genesis 1 was a spiritual creation in heaven. Genesis 2 is the natural creation on the earth.

    And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

    Nice fit, right?

    See how this interpretation ties to Revelation 12. Interesting. And it also explains why lucifer/satan was in the garden of Eden.

    Can this interpretation possibly fit into the Christian theology?
     
  15. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Genesis 1:1, grammatically, reads "when God began to create the heavens and the earth", it is the establishment phrase, and goes on, "the earth was a formless waste, and the Spirit of God hovered above the abyssal waters". This is the primordial chaos common to ancient near eastern creation myths, compare the abyssal waters of Genesis 1:2 with, for example, Tiamut in the Enuma Elish. But also note that where in the Enuma Elish Tiamut has personality and is ultimately what gives rise to the gods; here in Genesis 1 it is God who is chief and the abyssal waters are empty, lifeless, impersonal--a primordial chaos that, ultimately, God will shape (bara, the verb used translated as "create"). God gives shape the formless eretz and primordial chaos by bringing order and structure: God creates light and separates light and darkness; God separates the waters (the primordial waters already mentioned as existing) into the sea and firmament and sky, God separates dry land (eretz) from the waters making a distinction between sea and dry land. God then creates the rulers of day and night, the rulers of sky and sea, and the rulers of the dry land.

    All of these things are absolutely about the material universe, not some "spiritual" universe. God takes the primordial, unshapen chaotic elements of the universe and gives them structure, order, and purpose.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  16. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Some examples. David crafts his psalms in exactly this manner. The following are verses 7,10 & 17, from Psalm 51: (conveying the same principles)


    First thought: Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean

    Second thought: wash me and I shall be whiter than snow.



    First thought: Create in me a clean heart, O God;

    Second thought: and renew a right spirit within me.



    First thought: The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit:

    Second thought: a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.


    Sometimes a whole verse is used as the first thought and the next verse contains the second thought, as with the following example from Solomon, Prov. 2:3,4:


    First thought: Yea, if thou criest after knowledge,

    and liftest up thy voice for understanding;

    Second thought: If thou seekest her as silver,

    and searchest for her as for hid treasure;

    Although extensively used in the Psalms and wisdom literature, it is by no means restricted there. The same structure is used throughout the Scripture. Compare

    Isa.1:18:

    First thought: Come now, let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;

    Second thought: though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    There are prophecies in the Bible also based and built on the same principle of repeat and enlarge (review and/or to clarify and/or add additional information).

    Used in a prophetic context, is found in the book of Daniel. Daniel had four main visions. Each one covers the history of the kingdoms of this world and the history of God’s kingdom, from Daniel’s time, to the end of time. The first vision, of the statue, is the foundation for all the others. Each subsequent vision repeats what was previously revealed, and then adds additional information. For example, after Daniel had his third vision, he said it was similar to his first vision (Dan. 8:1). When He was about to have his fourth vision the angel said to him that the purpose was to give Daniel “skill and understanding” (Dan. 9:22), about his third vision (Dan. 9:23). Although not quite as obvious, the book of Revelation is constructed in a similar way to the book of Daniel. And in addition, it extensively repeats and enlarges on the prophecies found in Daniel, and other parts of the Old Testament.

    We see and use this teaching method in secular society schools as well. Day 1 something is taught, on day 2 what was taught on day 1 is reviewed along with something new on day 2 being introduced on day 2 as well .... and the process' are repeated over and over.
     
  17. Uber Genius

    Uber Genius "Super Genius"

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    This is called an ad hoc explanation.

    We are called to read the data and interpret in the context.

    The universe, heavens and earth are physical things. Water, sea, fish, birds, plants don't have a spiritual nature.

    Imagine if everyone went out and took their own ideas and read them back into the Biblical accounts. We would destroy all truths that the original authors were trying to communicate to their audiences.
     
  18. Uber Genius

    Uber Genius "Super Genius"

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    Where is the textual evidence for the claim, "Form in heaven created I them?"
     
  19. SinoBen

    SinoBen Active Member

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    The way I understand what is being conveyed to us here in Genesis 1 & 2 is that:
    • There is only one creator God
    • Genesis 1 - 2:3 is a big picture story of the creation account - God creating the universe
    • Genesis 2:4 - is a retelling of the creation account in the framework of God's special relationship with man
    • God is revealed as a personal God though his name YHWH. It's not a different Elohim.
    • The special way that YHWH created man
    • The special characteristic of man as YHWH's imager
    etc
     
  20. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Would you say that horses and chariots do not have a spiritual nature?
     
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