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Hammster

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I honestly do not think you are understanding Amil.

From my understanding:
  • Post-mil is optimistic because it believes the kingdom will grow and things will get better until Christ comes.
  • Amil is considered optimistic because it believes the kingdom will grow and prosper but things around us will get worse.
  • Premil is pessimistic because it believes things will get worse for everyone until Christ comes.
Amils recognize Satan being loosed for a season prior to the return of Christ to have his last throw. The majority (as the sand of the sea) will follow him. That does not negate a triumphant Church.
From what I can see, your understanding of Amil is self-contradictory. Or, it limits the growth of the kingdom. I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I don’t see how Amil can be optimistic if, like you say, things will get worse.
 
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sovereigngrace

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From what I can see, your understanding of Amil is self-contradictory. Or, it limits the growth of the kingdom. I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I don’t see how Amil can be optimistic if, like you say, things will get worse.

Not so! Quite the opposite! Amils see the growth and success of the kingdom of God in a fallen world. Christ is building His Church and the enemy cannot curtail the great commission. That does not negate the many Scriptures that show that men will wax worse and worse before the end. It is only those who deny the many clear Scriptures that show the release of the beast and Satan with their baleful influnce and the increase of persecution prior to the return of Christ that are rejecting the obvious.

There is no contradiction with these two realities. Postmil is wrong because it denies the growth of evil. Premil is wrong because it denies the growth of kingdom of God. Amils strikes the biblical balance.
 
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Hammster

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Not so! Quite the opposite! Amils see the growth and success of the kingdom of God in a fallen world. Christ is building His Church and the enemy cannot curtail the great commission. That does not negate the many Scriptures that show that men will wax worse and worse before the end. It is only those who deny the many clear Scriptures that show the release of the beast and Satan with their baleful influnce and the increase of persecution prior to the return of Christ that are rejecting the obvious.

There is no contradiction with these two realities. Postmil is wrong because it denies the growth of evil. Premil is wrong because it denies the growth of kingdom of God. Amils strikes the biblical balance.
Okay.
 
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JM

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I'll add a few comments but want to state very plainly that Amil and Postmil are two sides of the same coin. There is a lot of agreement.

I'm no expert but have moved from Amil to Postmil over the last 8 months.

I think there are many optimistic Amils who recognize the success of the Gospel expanse and see the subjugation of the kingdom of darkness wherever the Gospel prospers.

Sure, there are some but many do not and it's likely due to the habit of idealizing scripture.

I would recommend The Millennium by Loraine Boettner, Postmillennialism An Eschatology of Hope by Keith Mathison, and The Puritan Hope by Iain H Murray.

I have yet to read Boettner but have been told his work represents an older school of Postmil. Mathison and Murray :oldthumbsup:

I don’t think that’s unique to amils, and I don’t think that’s what’s meant by optimism.

Because Christ reigns from heaven His Kingdom is heavenly, bound to the eternal state until the Second Coming. Postmil asserts that Christ is winning in history - Amil does not, only Christ will win after the Second Coming.

I think it all depends on how we define optimistic and pessimistic. I see a victorious, empowered and expanding Church in an increasingly dark, wicked and alien world. Most Amils I know are optimistic because we have a ruling Savior who holds all power and authority intimately reigning over His kingdom and sovereignly reigning over all creation. So as such: many of us Amils are Postmils. Our focus is on the answer, not the problem. But re recognize the increase of wickedness as Satan is released at the end to have his last throw.

I think this quote sums up the confusion, "many of us Amils are Postmils..." As a former Amillennialist the temptation to idealize is very attractive. Postmil doesn't, at least not so much, which is more tenable IMO.

From my understanding, post-mil is considered optimistic because it believes that scripture teaches that the kingdom will grow and things will get better. Amil is pessimistic because it believes that things will get worse until Christ comes and sets things right.

Yes, this is exactly it. We need to understand what "getting better" refers to. Because the Gospel has gone into literally all the world the world is a better place. Poverty is down, education is up, GMO's are helping to solve the world hunger problem and yes, the Gospel is being accepted and preached throughout the world. As North Americans we tend to look around our own culture and see things as "getting worse, not better" but the promise that the Gates of Hell will not prevail is to the faithful Gospel preaching churches. I would venture to say North America is under God's judgement for lack of repentance and sin, but the church is exploding in Asia, Africa and the Middle East. We are God's troops establishing beachheads from which to attack and we will prevail. Even if our mortal bodies are slain we still win! We can't lose!

Amillennialism is pessimistic BECAUSE, and Premil is guilty of this as well, they believe the Gospel will not have a major influence in the world before Christ returns. God's influence is limited to the church with moments of refreshing and revival. Amil is pessimistic because they understand prophecy to be referring to a fall of society, things just get worse and worse before the Second Coming. This is one I personally have felt as a former Amillennialist and that is why I stopped evangelizing the lost, I mean, if things are just getting worse and worse why bother? The root of pessimism in evangelicalism today is found in Premil and Amil, the two major schools of eschatology.

Postmil asserts we must storm the beaches, establish beachheads and take the Gospel forth.

Even if it kills the body - because Christ's rule and reign is not limited to heaven. "on earth as it is in heaven..."

Note what SovereignGrace posted, "things around us will get worse." "Amil recognizes Satan being loosed for a season prior to the return of Christ..." and Postmil would agree. We are optimistic not utopian but it's how we act between the First and Second coming which separates us.

The Thousand-Year Reign of Christ's Saints

If Mathison said that he is wrong. Amils can indeed speak ably for themselves. Amillennialism asserts that Christ is enthroned now and is ruling and reigning now. Christ is King over both heaven and earth. That means the fulfillment of Psalm 72 takes place in history, that Christ is fulfilling His promises now.

But Amil teaches that Christ's reign over earth is ineffectual and more about the daily operations of creation and His rule is limited to the church on earth, not the earth itself.

Mathison's work is excellent.

From what I can see, your understanding of Amil is self-contradictory. Or, it limits the growth of the kingdom. I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I don’t see how Amil can be optimistic if, like you say, things will get worse.

That's exactly the point. Amillennialists usually complain about the term "pessimistic" but that's really how it is.

Not so! Quite the opposite! Amils see the growth and success of the kingdom of God in a fallen world. Christ is building His Church and the enemy cannot curtail the great commission. That does not negate the many Scriptures that show that men will wax worse and worse before the end. It is only those who deny the many clear Scriptures that show the release of the beast and Satan with their baleful influnce and the increase of persecution prior to the return of Christ that are rejecting the obvious.

There is no contradiction with these two realities. Postmil is wrong because it denies the growth of evil. Premil is wrong because it denies the growth of kingdom of God. Amils strikes the biblical balance.

Yes, Amillennialists believe God's Kingdom is in heaven. "Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature..." Source

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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