Post-Mil Only Looking for resources

Hammster

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Heaven Misplaced by Wilson is on my list but I have a small stack I must get through first. Let me know what you think of When the Man Comes Around.
I just started Heaven Misplaced today. We have Kindle unlimited and I stumbled upon it.

When The Man Comes Around is good. It’s a small book so it’s more of a survey. So I’m also going to look for something in depth. I’ve liked what I’ve read from Kenneth Gentry, so I’ll look for his work next.
 
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JM

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I just started Heaven Misplaced today. We have Kindle unlimited and I stumbled upon it.

When The Man Comes Around is good. It’s a small book so it’s more of a survey. So I’m also going to look for something in depth. I’ve liked what I’ve read from Kenneth Gentry, so I’ll look for his work next.
Gentry has some audio you can find using a podcast/itunes app. He also has videos on youtube.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Hi Mark,

I'm tempted to interact with your post but it's not what the op had in mind and would be off topic.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
Well, maybe start a new thread --should be interesting...

Or you can private message on this site.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I just recently stumbled across this view (or more accurately, had it explained in a positive way). So I’m looking for reliable resources for more study.

What type of Postmil? Many Postmils today are similar to Amils in their understanding of Rev 20. They are just hyper-optimistic Amils. I could recommend some books if I knew which road you were going down.
 
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Hammster

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What type of Postmil? Many Postmils today are similar to Amils in their understanding of Rev 20. They are just hyper-optimistic Amils. I could recommend some books if I knew which road you were going down.
I’m not particular right now. Anything would be appreciated.
 
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JM

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What type of Postmil? Many Postmils today are similar to Amils in their understanding of Rev 20. They are just hyper-optimistic Amils. I could recommend some books if I knew which road you were going down.

I agree with this. There is a lot of overlap but some interpretive differences with Psalm 72 (aka Royal Psalm) being a good example.

72 Give the king Your judgments, O God,
And Your righteousness to the king’s Son.
2 He will judge Your people with righteousness,
And Your poor with justice.
3 The mountains will bring peace to the people,
And the little hills, by righteousness.
4 He will bring justice to the poor of the people;
He will save the children of the needy,
And will break in pieces the oppressor.

5 They shall fear You
As long as the sun and moon endure,
Throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the grass before mowing,
Like showers that water the earth.
7 In His days the righteous shall flourish,
And abundance of peace,
Until the moon is no more.

8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.
9 Those who dwell in the wilderness will bow before Him,
And His enemies will lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles
Will bring presents;
The kings of Sheba and Seba
Will offer gifts.
11 Yes, all kings shall fall down before Him;
All nations shall serve Him.

12 For He will deliver the needy when he cries,
The poor also, and him who has no helper.
13 He will spare the poor and needy,
And will save the souls of the needy.
14 He will redeem their life from oppression and violence;
And precious shall be their blood in His sight.

15 And He shall live;
And the gold of Sheba will be given to Him;
Prayer also will be made for Him continually,
And daily He shall be praised.

16 There will be an abundance of grain in the earth,
On the top of the mountains;
Its fruit shall wave like Lebanon;
And those of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.

17 His name shall endure forever;
His name shall continue as long as the sun.
And men shall be blessed in Him;
All nations shall call Him blessed.

18 Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel,
Who only does wondrous things!
19 And blessed be His glorious name forever!
And let the whole earth be filled with His glory.
Amen and Amen.

20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Postmillennialism asserts that Christ is enthroned now and is ruling and reigning now, Christ is King over Heaven AND earth. That means the fulfillment of this prayer takes place in history, that Christ is fulfilling His promises now. Amillennialists usually deny that Psalm 72 takes place in history but in Heaven only or in the Eternal State. (see Mathison, Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope) Premillennialism believes Psalm 72 applies to the millennial period after Christ's Second Coming.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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JM

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What type of Postmil? Many Postmils today are similar to Amils in their understanding of Rev 20. They are just hyper-optimistic Amils. I could recommend some books if I knew which road you were going down.

Another point to note is that old Puritan style Postmil is not much different from Amil both being optimistic. Modern Amil tends to be pessimistic. I believe scripture is more on the side of general equity theonomy as Doug Wilson would say and that the proclamation of the Gospel is essential to the Christian life. It's central to the Church and its mission. Amil and modern Postmil both understand the millennial period to be from the time between Christ's first and second coming. Some like Rushdoony are Idealists not orthodox Preterists. Old school Puritan Postmil believed in a literal future millennial period and were Historicists, and both modern and Puritan Postmil tend to be theonomists.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Mark Quayle

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both modern and Puritan Postmil tend to be theonomists.
I assume you mean theonomists concerning government now, not the theocracy of the millenium? As such, would they have supported the first amendment of the constitution of the United States, but have in mind some less obvious rule of God in political matters, or would they have opposed the first amendment and promoted their particular theology as political?
 
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JM

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I assume you mean theonomists concerning government now, not the theocracy of the millenium? As such, would they have supported the first amendment of the constitution of the United States, but have in mind some less obvious rule of God in political matters, or would they have opposed the first amendment and promoted their particular theology as political?

I'm no expert in American politics but the Puritans were all but gone by time the constitution had been written, they were only one influence and American Christianity had been influenced by Jonathan Edwards and his ideas of religious experience in connection with personal piety. When I use the term Puritans I refer to the churchmen before the Enlightenment period, before Edwards and before Freemasonry influenced the American political landscape.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Mark Quayle

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I'm no expert in American politics but the Puritans were all but gone by time the constitution had been written, they were only one influence and American Christianity had been influenced by Jonathan Edwards and his ideas of religious experience in connection with personal piety. When I use the term Puritans I refer to the churchmen before the Enlightenment period, before Edwards and before Freemasonry influenced the American political landscape.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
Right, but I'm trying to get a sense of what you mean, or what they would have meant by theonomy. To what degree. I know 'in the olden days' in Europe it was pretty much expected that there was to be a state religion, at least to some degree. I'm not sure, though, just where the notion of millenium fit into their thinking.
 
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JM

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Right, but I'm trying to get a sense of what you mean, or what they would have meant by theonomy. To what degree. I know 'in the olden days' in Europe it was pretty much expected that there was to be a state religion, at least to some degree. I'm not sure, though, just where the notion of millenium fit into their thinking.
I have the title The Puritan Hope by Murray and hope to have a better handle on the subject. Once I do I'll pop back on and attempt to answer your question.

j
 
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Mark Quayle

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I have the title The Puritan Hope by Murray and hope to have a better handle on the subject. Once I do I'll pop back on and attempt to answer your question.

j
Thanks. I do like Murray very much, by the way.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I agree with this. There is a lot of overlap but some interpretive differences with Psalm 72 (aka Royal Psalm) being a good example.

72 Give the king Your judgments, O God,
And Your righteousness to the king’s Son.
2 He will judge Your people with righteousness,
And Your poor with justice.
3 The mountains will bring peace to the people,
And the little hills, by righteousness.
4 He will bring justice to the poor of the people;
He will save the children of the needy,
And will break in pieces the oppressor.

5 They shall fear You
As long as the sun and moon endure,
Throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the grass before mowing,
Like showers that water the earth.
7 In His days the righteous shall flourish,
And abundance of peace,
Until the moon is no more.

8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.
9 Those who dwell in the wilderness will bow before Him,
And His enemies will lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles
Will bring presents;
The kings of Sheba and Seba
Will offer gifts.
11 Yes, all kings shall fall down before Him;
All nations shall serve Him.

12 For He will deliver the needy when he cries,
The poor also, and him who has no helper.
13 He will spare the poor and needy,
And will save the souls of the needy.
14 He will redeem their life from oppression and violence;
And precious shall be their blood in His sight.

15 And He shall live;
And the gold of Sheba will be given to Him;
Prayer also will be made for Him continually,
And daily He shall be praised.

16 There will be an abundance of grain in the earth,
On the top of the mountains;
Its fruit shall wave like Lebanon;
And those of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.

17 His name shall endure forever;
His name shall continue as long as the sun.
And men shall be blessed in Him;
All nations shall call Him blessed.

18 Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel,
Who only does wondrous things!
19 And blessed be His glorious name forever!
And let the whole earth be filled with His glory.
Amen and Amen.

20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Postmillennialism asserts that Christ is enthroned now and is ruling and reigning now, Christ is King over Heaven AND earth. That means the fulfillment of this prayer takes place in history, that Christ is fulfilling His promises now. Amillennialists usually deny that Psalm 72 takes place in history but in Heaven only or in the Eternal State. (see Mathison, Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope) Premillennialism believes Psalm 72 applies to the millennial period after Christ's Second Coming.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I think there are many optimistic Amils who recognize the success of the Gospel expanse and see the subjugation of the kingdom of darkness wherever the Gospel prospers.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I’m not particular right now. Anything would be appreciated.

I would recommend The Millennium by Loraine Boettner, Postmillennialism An Eschatology of Hope by Keith Mathison, and The Puritan Hope by Iain H Murray.
 
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Hammster

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I think there are many optimistic Amils who recognize the success of the Gospel expanse and see the subjugation of the kingdom of darkness wherever the Gospel prospers.
I don’t think that’s unique to amils, and I don’t think that’s what’s meant by optimism.
 
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Hammster

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I would recommend The Millennium by Loraine Boettner, Postmillennialism An Eschatology of Hope by Keith Mathison, and The Puritan Hope by Iain H Murray.
Thanks.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Another point to note is that old Puritan style Postmil is not much different from Amil both being optimistic. Modern Amil tends to be pessimistic. I believe scripture is more on the side of general equity theonomy as Doug Wilson would say and that the proclamation of the Gospel is essential to the Christian life. It's central to the Church and its mission. Amil and modern Postmil both understand the millennial period to be from the time between Christ's first and second coming. Some like Rushdoony are Idealists not orthodox Preterists. Old school Puritan Postmil believed in a literal future millennial period and were Historicists, and both modern and Puritan Postmil tend to be theonomists.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I think it all depends on how we define optimistic and pessimistic. I see a victorious, empowered and expanding Church in an increasingly dark, wicked and alien world. Most Amils I know are optimistic because we have a ruling Savior who holds all power and authority intimately reigning over His kingdom and sovereignly reigning over all creation. So as such: many of us Amils are Postmils. Our focus is on the answer, not the problem. But re recognize the increase of wickedness as Satan is released at the end to have his last throw.
 
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Hammster

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I think it all depends on how we define optimistic and pessimistic. I see a victorious, empowered and expanding Church in an increasingly dark, wicked and alien world. Most Amils I know are optimistic because we have a ruling Savior who holds all power and authority intimately reigning over His kingdom and sovereignly reigning over all creation. So as such: many of us Amils are Postmils. Our focus is on the answer, not the problem. But re recognize the increase of wickedness as Satan is released at the end to have his last throw.
From my understanding, post-mil is considered optimistic because it believes that scripture teaches that the kingdom will grow and things will get better. Amil is pessimistic because it believes that things will get worse until Christ comes and sets things right.
 
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sovereigngrace

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From my understanding, post-mil is considered optimistic because it believes that scripture teaches that the kingdom will grow and things will get better. Amil is pessimistic because it believes that things will get worse until Christ comes and sets things right.

I honestly do not think you are properly understanding Amil.

From my understanding:
  • Postmil is optimistic because it believes the kingdom will grow and things will get better until Christ comes.
  • Amil is optimistic because it believes the kingdom will grow and prosper but things around us will get worse.
  • Premil is pessimistic because it believes things will get worse for everyone until Christ comes.
Amils recognize Satan being loosed for a season prior to the return of Christ to have his last throw. The majority (as the sand of the sea) will follow him. That does not negate a triumphant Church.
 
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I agree with this. There is a lot of overlap but some interpretive differences with Psalm 72 (aka Royal Psalm) being a good example.

72 Give the king Your judgments, O God,
And Your righteousness to the king’s Son.
2 He will judge Your people with righteousness,
And Your poor with justice.
3 The mountains will bring peace to the people,
And the little hills, by righteousness.
4 He will bring justice to the poor of the people;
He will save the children of the needy,
And will break in pieces the oppressor.

5 They shall fear You
As long as the sun and moon endure,
Throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the grass before mowing,
Like showers that water the earth.
7 In His days the righteous shall flourish,
And abundance of peace,
Until the moon is no more.

8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.
9 Those who dwell in the wilderness will bow before Him,
And His enemies will lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles
Will bring presents;
The kings of Sheba and Seba
Will offer gifts.
11 Yes, all kings shall fall down before Him;
All nations shall serve Him.

12 For He will deliver the needy when he cries,
The poor also, and him who has no helper.
13 He will spare the poor and needy,
And will save the souls of the needy.
14 He will redeem their life from oppression and violence;
And precious shall be their blood in His sight.

15 And He shall live;
And the gold of Sheba will be given to Him;
Prayer also will be made for Him continually,
And daily He shall be praised.

16 There will be an abundance of grain in the earth,
On the top of the mountains;
Its fruit shall wave like Lebanon;
And those of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.

17 His name shall endure forever;
His name shall continue as long as the sun.
And men shall be blessed in Him;
All nations shall call Him blessed.

18 Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel,
Who only does wondrous things!
19 And blessed be His glorious name forever!
And let the whole earth be filled with His glory.
Amen and Amen.

20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Postmillennialism asserts that Christ is enthroned now and is ruling and reigning now, Christ is King over Heaven AND earth. That means the fulfillment of this prayer takes place in history, that Christ is fulfilling His promises now. Amillennialists usually deny that Psalm 72 takes place in history but in Heaven only or in the Eternal State. (see Mathison, Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope) Premillennialism believes Psalm 72 applies to the millennial period after Christ's Second Coming.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

If Mathison said that he is wrong. Amils can indeed speak ably for themselves. Amillennialism asserts that Christ is enthroned now and is ruling and reigning now. Christ is King over both heaven and earth. That means the fulfillment of Psalm 72 takes place in history, that Christ is fulfilling His promises now.
 
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