Looking for input here. My society appalls me.

A_Thinker

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What does Objectivism mean by self interest A_Thinker? How does Objectivism define sacrifice? You'll need to know this to avoid smuggling in premises that are no part of Objectivism. You can be perfectly rationally selfish and you can cooperate with others, join groups to accomplish great goals, help other, donate to charity and be benevolent. There is no contradiction between these things and being rationally selfish. So learn what the Objectivist means by self interest and what Objectivism means by sacrifice. Hint, it does not mean benevolence or kindness or good will. These are all fully compatible with the Objective Theory of Ethics.
Sounds like you want to redefine all of the defining terms ...

Let me ask this question.

What human accomplishment can you point to which illustrates the truth of Objective self-interest ?

What society runs with Objectivity as its basis ... ?
 
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The happy Objectivist

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Sounds like you want to redefine all of the defining terms ...

Let me ask this question.

What human accomplishment can you point to which illustrates the truth of Objective self-interest ? What society runs with Objectivity as its basis ...
This does not answer the questions I asked. Why are you resistant to learning how objectivism defines these terms. It's the job of a philosophy to define its terms. Objectivism has a theory of concepts including a theory of definitions. Objectivism defines its terms in accordance with its theory of definitions. I will answer your question after you answer mine. What does Objectivism mean by self-interest? What does it mean by sacrifice. If you answer these questions your objections will disappear, I think.

I'll help you out: —Ayn Rand Lexicon

—Ayn Rand Lexicon

—Ayn Rand Lexicon

the first link is to the Objecitvist Lexicon.

The second is the enty on selfishness. The third is the entry on sacrifice.
 
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A_Thinker

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This does not answer the questions I asked. Why are you resistant to learning how objectivism defines these terms. It's the job of a philosophy to define its terms. Objectivism has a theory of concepts including a theory of definitions. Objectivism defines its terms in accordance with its theory of definitions. I will answer your question after you answer mine. What does Objectivism mean by self-interest? What does it mean by sacrifice. If you answer these questions your objections will disappear, I think.

I'll help you out: —Ayn Rand Lexicon

—Ayn Rand Lexicon

—Ayn Rand Lexicon

the first link is to the Objecitvist Lexicon.

The second is the enty on selfishness. The third is the entry on sacrifice.
Tell you what ... you answer my question WHILE I look into Ayn Rand's redefinitions.

It was your proposition that Objectivism is truth, after all ...
 
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The happy Objectivist

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Tell you what ... you answer my question WHILE I look into Ayn Rand's redefinitions.

It was your proposition that Objectivism is truth, after all ...
No. I'm tired of people evading my questions and answering with more questions. Your objections depend on your own smuggled premises and we're not going forward until you answer. If you don't like that then we'll just end the discussion. And they are not redefinitions. They are proper definitions made by a process derived from the steps of concept formation.
 
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A_Thinker

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No. I'm tired of people evading my questions and answering with more questions. Your objections depend on your own smuggled premises and we're not going forward until you answer. If you don't like that then we'll just end the discussion. And they are not redefinitions. They are proper definitions made by a process derived from the steps of concept formation.
No answers forthcoming, I guess ...
 
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The happy Objectivist

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No answers forthcoming, I guess ...
I told you what my conditions are. What does Objectivism mean by self-interest and what does it mean by sacrifice. These definitions are key to understanding that passage you quoted. Let's get this done and then I'll be happy to answer your questions. You seem to think that Objectivism is anti-empathy and anti-cooperation. Nothing could be further from the truth.
 
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VirOptimus

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I told you what my conditions are. What does Objectivism mean by self-interest and what does it mean by sacrifice. These definitions are key to understanding that passage you quoted. Let's get this done and then I'll be happy to answer your questions. You seem to think that Objectivism is anti-empathy and anti-cooperation. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Randians are jerks, thats their whole point. Objectivism is just an excuse to be that, the ”philosophy” is pretty much just childish mumbo jumbo with no real value. Its a footnote in the history of philosophy with no contributions.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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Randians are jerks, thats their whole point. Objectivism is just an excuse to be that, the ”philosophy” is pretty much just childish mumbo jumbo with no real value. Its a footnote in the history of philosophy with no contributions.
I'm being a jerk because I won't let someone evade my questions? I come here to offer my thoughts on the state of society that the OP is concerned about and I've been called childish and it has been implied that I'm emotionally stunted, socially crippled and that I can't deal with reality and I'm being a jerk? Whatever dude. As usual, no substance, just drive-by comments.

How about that alternative theory of concepts since you think mine is bs. All you have is sneering comments and mudslinging. A classic argument from intimidation. I won't respond to you again until you have something other than insults.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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If found it. It's perfect. After dealing with several people on this forum over the last several days, I've begun to feel a black depression and a feeling of despair. But then I came upon this beautiful, wonderful, life giving video and I have been restored. Thank you Dan Scavino for posting this and reminding me.

Do you want to know what the concept of rational self-interest means? Do you want to see what is the good? Do you want to see what the meaning and purpose of life is according to Objectivism? Here it is.

https://twitter.com/DanScavino/status/1339448148415098881
 
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VirOptimus

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If found it. It's perfect. After dealing with several people on this forum over the last several days, I've begun to feel a black depression and a feeling of despair. But then I came upon this beautiful, wonderful, life giving video and I have been restored. Thank you Dan Scavino for posting this and reminding me.

Do you want to know what the concept of rational self-interest means? Do you want to see what is the good? Do you want to see what the meaning and purpose of life is according to Objectivism? Here it is.

https://twitter.com/DanScavino?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author
Dan Scavino? For real?

Heh, no.
 
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A_Thinker

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After dealing with several people on this forum over the last several days, I've begun to feel a black depression and a feeling of despair.
Why would discussion of this philosophic topic cause you to be depressed ... or despairing ?
 
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The happy Objectivist

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Does a child with no parents have a claim on society?
No. It has to rely on the goodwill of others, just as anyone would. If one person's need places an obligation on another then we are all guilty every second of our lives because there is no bite of food that someone doesn't need and there is no value in general that someone somewhere doesn't need. But it's your right to help them if you want to and nobody should get in the way. Plus a child has enormous value to offer in trade. Every child is a potential Einstein or Rembrandt.

Every time you sit down to eat, you are placing your life above the lives of those others who are starving. Now you have to believe that the vast majority of people are capable of taking care of themselves or the human species couldn't survive. The small number of people who actually can't take care of themselves is small and can easily be helped through voluntary charity. You can get together and form a group and raise money to help orphans and that's perfectly fine to do, Durangodawood.

The question is not, however, if you will help the child but whether you have a right to exist if you don't because there are millions of children out there in need and you aren't helping them.
 
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durangodawood

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No. It has to rely on the goodwill of others, just as anyone would. If one person's need places an obligation on another then we are all guilty every second of our lives because there is no bite of food that someone doesn't need and there is no value in general that someone somewhere doesn't need. But it's your right to help them if you want to and nobody should get in the way. Plus a child has enormous value to offer in trade. Every child is a potential Einstein or Rembrandt.

Every time you sit down to eat, you are placing your life above the lives of those others who are starving. Now you have to believe that the vast majority of people are capable of taking care of themselves or the human species couldn't survive. The small number of people who actually can't take care of themselves is small and can easily be helped through voluntary charity. You can get together and form a group and raise money to help orphans and that's perfectly fine to do, Durangodawood.

The question is not, however, if you will help the child but whether you have a right to exist if you don't.
Youre looking at it wrong, because the orphan child has a claim on the collective, not on any particular individual. Its your participation in the collective arrangement to care for orphans that releases you to go about your individual life without an obligation to personally check in with every starving person first.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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Youre looking at it wrong, because the orphan child has a claim on the collective, not on any particular individual. Its your participation in the collective arrangement to care for orphans that releases you to go about your individual life without an obligation to personally check in with every starving person first.
I think you're thinking about it all wrong. The "collective" doesn't exist. It's an abstraction. It's the aggregate of all the individuals. There is no collective obligation. If there is who puts it on me? Who has a right to take on obligations in my name? Do I not have a choice? If I don't have a choice then it can't be a moral obligation because the moral is the chosen.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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Youre looking at it wrong, because the orphan child has a claim on the collective, not on any particular individual. Its your participation in the collective arrangement to care for orphans that releases you to go about your individual life without an obligation to personally check in with every starving person first.

And also, durangodawood, if it were true that I have some obligation to the "collective", then you should be able, objectively, to tell me what exactly is the extent of that obligation. How much of my life, work, and property belong to the "collective" and what part belongs to me? I can tell you exactly down to the penny, can you?
 
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durangodawood

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I think you're thinking about it all wrong. The "collective" doesn't exist. It's an abstraction. It's the aggregate of all the individuals. There is no collective obligation. If there is who puts it on me? Who has a right to take on obligations in my name? Do I not have a choice? If I don't have a choice then it can't be a moral obligation because the moral is the chosen.
I dont see how you can just hand-wave away millennia of the reality of bands, tribes, towns, nations. These things are real. And, like so many things, more than just the sum of their constituents.

Of course the individual is real too. My personal disposition favors the individual. But I have eyes to see, so I cannot deny the reality and necessity of the collective as well. Human flourishing withers when we deny one or the other.
 
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durangodawood

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And also, durangodawood, if it were true that I have some obligation to the "collective", then you should be able, objectively, to tell me what exactly is the extent of that obligation. How much of my life, work, and property belong to the "collective" and what part belongs to me? I can tell you exactly down to the penny, can you?
Thats a false test. Why should I be possessed of some kind of magical omniscience such that I can calculate the precise optimum balance of individual freedom/obligation. Theres a decently wide gray area where it works, and then all or nothing zones where things go off the rails.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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I dont see how you can just hand-wave away millennia of the reality of bands, tribes, towns, nations. These things are real. And, like so many things, more than just the sum of their constituents.

Of course the individual is real too. My personal disposition favors the individual. But I have eyes to see, so I cannot deny the reality and necessity of the collective as well. Human flourishing withers when we deny one or the other.
I see that you again refuse to answer my questions. Who or what places this obligation on me? Do I not have a choice? It's not hand waiving, it reason guided by logic.
 
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