Looking for at least one other serious Bible student - regarding end times.

BobRyan

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It's harder to find than you might think. A lot of people view forums like this one on endtimes as not really for serious Bible students since few if any are willing to consider that they are wrong about something and will not accept a text in opposition to their view no matter how clear it is.

So let's propose something a bit more serious and reasonable --


Starting at 55:58 in that video of a church service
(keep watching to see the BIG BANG near the end from Rev 6)

near the start of this sermon he gives some examples of historic failures to take end-time, crisis, critical events "seriously".

1. The Flood -- The entire planet gets it wrong - only 8 people get it right.
And the "thinking" ??
"I am not sure if Noah is right - so I may not join him but I will be near enough - so that when I see rain start to form/fall, or hear thunder, I will get in the boat".​
And of course the "Flaw" in that not-serious solution is that the door of the ark closed seven days BEFORE the rain starts to fall according to Gen 7.

2. The coming of the Messiah - "He came to His own and His own received Him not" John 1:11 - the "nation got it wrong".
And "the thinking"??
" Why should I worry about which of all these fake messiah claims are legit when I can just wait until some so-called Messiah comes along and frees us from the Romans - as soon as I see him do that I will join in and miss all the fake false messiahs".​
And the flaw -- is that they would reject the Is 53 Messiah that came to save the world from sin.

The video makes the argument that "bad doctrine has consequences" as in the case of Eve, as in the case of those that "missed the boat".


======================================= part I
The video above is about Rev 13 and 14 and the first part (Part I) is referenced a few times in that video so I am including it here

Title: Rev 13 – “The mark of the beast”


Begins at 00:00
=======================================================

One thing that stands out is that "getting it wrong" was not just "mildly inconvenient on some tiny level" - but in fact was fatal.


Next the video gets into our current situation - where we are dealing with end time events for planet Earth.

1. Rapture: (many flavors of this idea in the Bible some of them discussed in the sermon)

Almost all the popular versions have NO DOWNSIDE to getting the rapture teaching wrong. No matter what you are thinking or expecting you get raptured anyway as a Christian. So why waste your time trying to figure out the details of that topic - as long as you are a Christian. Unlike ALL the real examples in the Bible where getting it wrong matters. (Even though I do accept a version of the Rapture teaching as being in scripture)​

2. No Rapture; (several flavors of this)

Almost all the popular versions have NO DOWNSIDE to getting the no-rapture teaching wrong. No matter what you are thinking or expecting you get the wonderful ending of Christ on Earth fixing everything for you in the end. (And even I view Christ as fixing things on Earth but not in the typical millennial kingdom on Earth fashion)​
So why waste your time solving the details on that topic - as long as you are a Christian. Since in that case - and unlike ALL the real examples in the Bible where getting it wrong matters) it matters not if you figure out the details.​
My view is that it does matter (just as in all major crisis examples) and that the "it really does not matter" endings reveal a problem somewhere in the scenario being proposed.
The video proposes a more serious option where it DOES matter at the end of the world JUST LIKE it mattered in the case of Eve, and Noah, and John the baptizer and in the days of Paul etc.

Is there even one other serious Bible student on this area of the forum willing to take an honest look at the option proposed there - even though it does not fit your bias?

===============================

If you are tempted to post something like one of the following ... please don't since I already agree that you have the free will to go that direction
1. I don't have to listen to any view that is not my own if I choose not to
2. I choose to only have bad things to say about people or views that are not my own rather than looking at details in that view
3. I already looked at Bible details to get to my current view and don't have time to look any further

By sparing us those posts you are doing a big favor to us all in the spirit of open discussion. I thank you in advance.
 
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BobRyan

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Four details in the video that stand out.

Matt 24:29-31 - the rapture.

1. Rapture takes place "after the tribulation" vs 29.. Consider the option that this fact is a good thing to notice... it is true just as stated.
2. Another point it makes is the 2 Thess 1:6-8 fact that all the lost are destroyed at the appearing of Christ for the rapture.
3. Another point it makes is that the 1 Thess 4:13-18 rapture takes all the saints to heaven

4. And the result is that Jer 4:23-26 condition of the earth desolate, the cities all destroyed by God's wrath alone - and "no humans" left on planet Earth. (at least during the 1000 year millennium prior to Christ's return to Earth to judge the wicked and setup His kingdom in the New Earth)

====

"Non Serious" options are of the form : ( The text you just referenced can't mean what it appears to say because if it does mean that then my view of how things end won't work. And oh by the way - unlike all other major events listed in the OP where being wrong matters - it does not matter if my view is correct and you get it wrong)

=====

Instead of the endless litany of "I refuse to seriously look at any option not already on my agenda" is there even one other person willing to take an objective look at these Bible details and discuss?

I am not saying participants must agree with posts 1 and 2 or the video -- I am asking for serious response to the points and texts made there
 
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trophy33

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I have a feeling that many American Christians who have been fed with the Last days theology, being spread by the Seventh Day Adventists church in the USA for decades, are beginning to realize that something is not right with it.

Even though there are some "students" of eschatology who are more fanatical about their views and expect the biblical texts written 2,000 years ago to be literal and meant for us in the 21st century and spend much time arguing about how exactly it will happen in our time, most of Christians worldwide do not hold such modern futurist eschatology and are either inclining to historicism or preterism (if they care to define their views).

The less influence SDA teachings have in a country/church, the less futurists there are.

The similar applies to Young Earth Creationism, which you also reflected in your post (flood being on the entire planet) and which has also its origins in the SDA movement.
 
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BobRyan

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I have a feeling that many American Christians who have been fed with the Last days theology, being spread by the Seventh Day Adventists church in the USA for decades, are beginning to realize that something is not right with it.
In the op we have this

If you are tempted to post something like one of the following ... please don't since I already agree that you have the free will to go that direction
1. I don't have to listen to any view that is not my own if I choose not to
2. I choose to only have bad things to say about people or views that are not my own rather than looking at details in that view
3. I already looked at Bible details to get to my current view and don't have time to look any further

By sparing us those posts you are doing a big favor to us all in the spirit of open discussion. I thank you in advance.
I could have added
"I don't have to read a post by a Seventh-day Adventist if I don't want to" -- to that list. Is this what was confusing for you -- as you make another post ignoring every detail brought up in the OP? I already agreed that you don't have to post if all you can do is ignore the content and every detail mentioned in the first two posts.

It is that sort of "I am not discussing it because it is not what I already think" post - that causes this forum area to be viewed as "not really serious" --
 
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trophy33

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In the op we have this


I could have added
"I don't have to read a post by a Seventh-day Adventist if I don't want to" -- to that list. Is this what was confusing for you -- as you make another post ignoring every detail brought up in the OP? I already agreed that you don't have to post if all you can do is ignore the content and every detail mentioned in the first two posts.

It is that sort of "I am not discussing it because it is not what I already think" post - that causes this forum area to be viewed as "not really serious" --
Are you able to forget the SDA teachings and read the biblical text as it is and in the context it is in? If not, then we can talk all day about who is and who is not serious, but in the end, its just one school of thought against another.
 
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BobRyan

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Are you able to forget the SDA teachings
I am able to seriously consider someone's POV, texts, conclusions, even if I may not agree with them.

I am able to look for at least one other serious bible student who will look at the points made in the first two posts and respond to them rather than slamming a denomination or a person or simply coming up with ways not to look at the details being pointed out. That person does not have to agree with my conclusions but they have to be willing to look at the texts and the points seriously enough to have a " not-ignoring-everything in the OP" response.

We already have tons of "That is not what I already think" responses on this board - and it is kind of infamous for that pattern so far. I am looking for something different.
 
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Blade

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I am able to look for at least one other serious bible student who will look at the points made in the first two posts and respond to them rather than slamming a denomination or a person or simply coming up with ways not to look at the details being pointed out. That person does not have to agree with my conclusions but they have to be willing to look at the texts and the points seriously enough to have a " not-ignoring-everything in the OP" response.

We already have tons of "That is not what I already think" responses on this board - and it is kind of infamous for that pattern so far. I am looking for something different.

Hi.. your looking for something different? Yet you said "since few if any are willing to consider that they are wrong about something and will not accept a text in opposition to their view no matter how clear it is.". First I don't see anyone "slamming a denomination". 2nd words matter you said "few if any" so you have talked to most? Every word matters to God if we want truth then we need to speak true. No offense but for me you come across as your right and we just are not willing to admit we can be wrong.

So this is a video of SDA. So you might want to ask other SDA about this. IF this was "I personally believe blah blah blah and this is why. What do you think" Then I would be happy to talk. See I can talk since I am not here for any denomination. I can be wrong. Give you a hint the flood. What no one knows is how many were on the earth could have been billions. All of them out of 8 "every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.". None missed it they were never looking never had a good thought. Noah was a just man that walked with God and found favor. Every word matters so when GOD said "blameless in his generation; " hmm why use the word generation.

Rapture.. be nice if we would remind the body of Christ that He will come in the clouds voice shout trump dead rise we change go up together. This will happen but no one knows when pre mid or post. So be wise to be watching ready for Him now. Then be nice to remind people that in Rev after Chapter 4 the Church is not ever talked about. Then about the world worshiping the beast taking its mark. It always makes me wonder why some only talk about the MARK! Well to get to the mark means you already worshipped the beast in that case you lost forever. Hmm but was there not something written before this? Something like all those whos names were written in the Lambs book before the foundation of the world will never worship the beast. Blah blah blah

All of what I said is just what I read and then very badly put in to words haha. If I was debating I would do a much better job but the point is.. I will talk about what the BIBLE says not what some denomination says. In truth I have not talked to most have talked to a few.
 
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BobRyan

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Hi.. your looking for something different? Yet you said "since few if any are willing to consider that they are wrong about something and will not accept a text in opposition to their view no matter how clear it is.". First I don't see anyone "slamming a denomination".
I think it is not as common to see people blasting an entire denomination. In any case I am waiting to see someone taking the details listed in the OP post and the second post, and responding with an open mind to the idea that they do not already know everything there is to know and are free to consider what is being pointed out.
So this is a video of SDA. So you might want to ask other SDA about this.
if it were true that this entire forum is only for discussing something with your own denomination I could see how that suggestion would make sense. I am not saying that participants must agree with the OP.. I am asking for serious response to the points and texts made there even though the most common form of response in this area of the board is to ignore the points/texts that don't fit one's bias and go off on another tangent.
IF this was "I personally believe blah blah blah and this is why. What do you think" Then I would be happy to talk.
It is that sort of thread - only I am not asking to drag into it every idea under the sun. I have a proposed set of Bible facts and want to see them discussed seriously for those who are willing to participate in such contexts.
Rapture.. be nice if we would remind the body of Christ that He will come in the clouds voice shout trump dead rise we change go up together.
apparently we do agree on that single point.
This will happen but no one knows when pre mid or post.
So you did not see even one single text mentioned in the OP vid or two posts on that detail???
 
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Douggg

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1. Rapture takes place "after the tribulation" vs 29.. Consider the option that this fact is a good thing to notice... it is true just as stated.
No, it does not.

The rapture is in Matthew 24:36-39.
 
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BobRyan

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No, it does not.

The rapture in Matthew 24:36-39.
The rapture Matt 24:29-31 that is then elaborated on in vs 36-39 which explains why the saints are all "in the sky" in vs 31 so that the angels gather them from the sky.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

as noted in the OP -- 1 Thess 4:13-18 explains how it is that they all got into the sky for vs 31 in Matt 24.
 
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BobRyan

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Serious bible commentators don't consider the 1260 days in bible prophecy as 1260 years.
Catholics may say that serious bible commentators don't like Protestant views of this or that text.

I am not looking for that kind of response since it is not really very useful outside of "well I don't think so". I am looking for Bible facts.

It is a fact that the day for year principle is a long standing Protestant POV of apocalyptic timelines and that Dan 9 with its 490 days - as 490 years is an irrefutable example of how that works. You can always post 'well I don't agree" to just about anything.

I am looking for a serious consideration of what is proposed in the OP -- not necessarily agreement with it - but should at least make some sort of contribution to the discussion.
 
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Douggg

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The rapture Matt 24:29-31 that is then elaborated on in vs 36-39 which explains why the saints are all "in the sky" in vs 31 so that the angels gather them from the sky.
The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is not referring to the rapture, but the gathering of the children of Israel from around the world back to the land of Israel.

It is based on a promise made to them in Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:


5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Now look at Matthew 24:31...

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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BobRyan

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The rapture Matt 24:29-31 that is then elaborated on in vs 36-39 which explains why the saints are all "in the sky" in vs 31 so that the angels gather them from the sky.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

as noted in the OP -- 1 Thess 4:13-18 explains how it is that they all got into the sky for vs 31 in Matt 24.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

1, the trumpet blast.
2. The Son of Man descending from heaven
3. The saints in the sky - in the air... to be WITH the Lord.

(A great many rapture groups accept the fact that both Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 speak to the same rapture event)

The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is not referring to the rapture,

Ok that is exactly the kind of direction I was hoping for - so now let's see your close attention to the two points listed above and how you show that this is not the rapture.

But stay with the chapter -- don't dismiss it.

Matt 24:
3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many people. 6 And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

Nothing there about "When will Israel be all up in the sky and then land safely here where we are in Jerusalem".. I think we can all see that.

but the gathering of the children of Israel from around the world back to the land of Israel.
That is not even close to the topic of Matt 24.

I am looking for some attention to the actual text of Matt 24 and the details pointed out ... unless you think God sens Israelites into the air then casts them down into the land of Israel without cause a huge amount of physical harm to them - as if that is part of the verses we see there.

You said we should read Deut 30 "instead". That is not a serious treatment of the actual details being read in Matt 24:29-31. A serious review of it has to actually look at it and note the details in the text.

Deut 30:4 If any of your scattered countrymen are at the ends of the earth, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. 5 The Lord your God will bring you into the land (NASB).

By contrast Matt 24 says
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Nobody denies that Christ will appear in the "sky" the real "sky" where clouds of the sky are.. This is irrefutable.
Nobody denies that the Jews were scattered on the earth... to the ends of the earth... this is irrefutable.

Now look at Matthew 24:31...

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Yes that is what we want to do - we want the actual details in the text to say this is not the elect if you don't believe it is the elect or that the is not the coming of Christ or .. .whatever you wish to propose.

==========================

In post #2 we have this - "Non Serious" options are of the form : ( The text you just referenced can't mean what it appears to say because if it does mean that then my view of how things end won't work."

go to the top of this post and you will see Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 - where they both put the saints in the sky, Christ appearing and descending from heaven and the great sound of a trumpet blast.

I am not looking for an extremely torturous treatment of the text - rather show us how the text can't possibly mean what it appears to say by noting the details in the chapter. Because otherwise it just reduces to 'don' look at those details in Matt 24 -- look at something else instead". Which is a non-serious way to treat the Matt 24 text.
 
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BobRyan

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Doug it boils down to this --

Deut 30:4 If any of your scattered countrymen are at the ends of the earth, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. 5 The Lord your God will bring you into the land (NASB).

By contrast Matt 24 says
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


Nobody denies that Christ will appear in the "sky" the real "sky" where clouds of the sky are.. This is irrefutable.
Nobody denies that the Jews were scattered on the earth... to the ends of the earth... this is irrefutable. The Earth is not "the clouds of the sky" that is not where the Jews were scattered.

=======

So while "real sky" is the most natural reading of the text in Matt 24 for the Son of Man coming - and therefore the only option for the elect gathered from there since it is in that same context - it takes a bit of a wrench to turn it into not-the-sky.

Are you saying that is the best alternative you have??

If so - I think even you would agree with the following

1. Nothing in Matt 24 insists that sky cannot mean actual sky
2. Nothing in Matt 24 says Israel is scattered and needs to go up in the sky to get into Israel again
3. nothing in Matt 24 is getting you to insert all sorts of creative changes - but something else is the driver for you. a prior bias?
 
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TribulationSigns

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The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is not referring to the rapture, but the gathering of the children of Israel from around the world back to the land of Israel.

Matthew 24:31 does talk about the rapture of the Elect. But let's review Matthew 24 a bit more.

There is not one shred of biblical evidence of a conversion of millions to the gospel during the Great Tribulation. God tells us that the Great Tribulation will be a time when the love of God has grown cold, and the believers will be hated and persecuted, and iniquity will abound, and that there are so many false gospels, false Christs, and false prophets deceiving so greatly, that they would even deceive the very Chosen of God "IF" that were possible. Does that really sound like a phenomenal worldwide conversion at this time like the post-millennial?

Matthew 24:11-13
  • ""And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
  • And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
  • But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Matthew 24:21-25
  • ""For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
    beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
  • And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be
    saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
  • Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe
    it not.
  • For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew
    great signs and wonders
    ; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall
    deceive the very elect.
  • Behold, I have told you before."
In all seriousness, does this great tribulation period sound like the converting of millions like Post millennials or bringing together the Jews from the ends of the world to national Israel?? NO, on the contrary, it is tortuous of Scripture to claim that. It sounds like a famine of hearing the word of God in the unfaithful church all over the world where the elect are! It is not about a great bounty. It is a deception is so great that the gospel is being pinched off, not so preached that it is saving millions. It's a time of apostasy, departing from the faith, and false teachers. That's no revival, that's a desolation...of the New Testament church! That is what the Great Tribulation is talking about. Not about 7 years tribulation in Israel.

I'm sure you've read Matthew 24 and what Jesus has to say about the Great Tribulation, but have you not received what you have read? You've read it but have you heard it? The Lord will shorten the days and return on the clouds of glory "while" there is still flesh (The Chosen) left on earth! He has to or else these false prophets and their evil and iniquity abounding there would have killed all the Christians off. There would be none left for God to catch up in the clouds of glory at His second advent (commonly called the rapture). But there will be a rapture because God will shorten those days of tribulation. There will be those caught up in the heavens after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29).

Matthew 24:29-31
  • "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
  • And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then
    shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man
    coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
  • And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they
    shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven
    to the other
    ."
The rapture and judgment don't come UNTIL AFTER the great tribulation period. It will occur at the Last Trumpet. Not next to the Last, but the last (which means this trumpet of Matthew must be the last, because the rapture trumpet which says it is "The last Trumpet" cannot occur before this trumpet. Think about it. ..it's an impossibility for the last trumpet (1st Cor. 15:52) of the rapture (a rapture which you claim is before this Great Tribulation) to occur before the Matthew 24 trumpet. ..else it is not the last trumpet!

Matthew 24 makes it clear these false Christians dominate, they are ruling in the Temple (Churches - For example Joel Osteen, etc.) The question is, why don't these unfaithful Christians in this time of tribulation hear the gospel and reject the false teachings? The answer is BECAUSE they don't want to hear what God has to say. In all likelihood, those denying God's word are the very ones who it's speaking about as the deceived! Those wrestling God's word in order to have their way, those seeking signs and wonders, those attuned to false teachers, those with itching ears, and those bearing false witnesses to the truth. Read what God actually says about this time.

Matthew 24:21-26
  • ""for then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
  • And EXCEPT those days should be shortened, there should no flesh BE SAVED: but FOR THE CHOSEN'S SAKE those days shall be shortened.
  • then if any man shall say unto YOU, lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
  • For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great Signs and Wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall DECEIVE even the very chosen.
  • Behold, I have told you before.
  • Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, He is in the desert; go not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not."
How much clearer can Jesus say it. It's not a time of great revival of millions like PostMillennialism, on the CONTRARY, it's a time of great wickedness among those who believe, so much and so cleverly deceiving that it would even deceive the elect/chosen if it were possible. And Jesus tells us they'll hate "YOU," they'll persecute "YOU," they'll seek to deceive "YOU," they'll say to "YOU" here is Christ or there is Christ. And Jesus says to "YOU," don't Believe them! Don't follow them! It's "YOU" (Whom Christ is talking to) who they are after and try to deceive. And Jesus says, Behold, I've already told you about this before. ...And He has, but these people (as demonstrated here) just do not listen. But the Noble Bereans, the humble, the meek WILL listen and will HEAR. And what does Jesus tell "US" about the nature of those who come to deceive is.

#1 False Prophets
#2 False Christs

They are coming to deceive. And what does Jesus say is their method of deception? ..They come with Signs and Wonders to deceive! Same as in 2nd Thessalonians 2:2 where God warns the church about this coming apostasy of those in league with Satan coming with all Signs and LYING Wonders. There it is again. The warning to the Church. Because we'll be here. We need to know that Satan comes as a messenger of light who works through His False prophets and christs, the ministers of righteousness so we will not be deceived by their lying signs and wonders (false gospels). And what does the apostle Paul say to the church. The same thing Jesus said.

2nd Thessalonians 2:5
  • "Remembering ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things."
Yes, we have been told time and time again, in Matthew, in timothy, in 2nd Thessalonians, in Revelation, etc., etc. But some are just not listening and so they have no one to blame but themselves when they are deceived by these people come into the Church with their own authorities instead of the Word of God.

None of your teachers or the Dispensational authors have explained 'coherently' how Jesus is talking to the church in Matthew 24, telling them (WARNING US) about this coming time and how to endure to the end so that they'll be saved, and yet they teach we'll not even be here at this time of Great Tribulation or it only applies to the Jews in the Middle East. It cannot be talking only to Jews. The Lord is obviously talking to HIS CHURCH (where the Elect are), and so why would He be warning those who He's going to take out of the world before this happens, to watch for it and endure? It makes no sense because it's not true.

Matthew 24:9
  • "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake".
That "for Christ's name sake!" Those who take the name of Christ are the body of Christ, the church, and their names are Christians. There are not two salvation programs, there is only one body of Christ. How then are the Christians still here and being persecuted for His name sake, and yet people continue to insist that this is not true and claim they've been raptured because the Lord doesn't want His people going through "wrath?" Who then are these people if not the lord's people, and how then are they going through this for His namesake? Again, it makes no sense.

Inconsistency is the hallmark of error. And this isn't the only place God warns the church about this, so it's not subject to claims of it being an obscure reference, or just to the Jews. We will be here during the Tribulation, but "ONLY" those who have strength in Christ will endure to the end and be saved. The others (those not TRUSTING in the authority of His word) will be deceived and marked of the beast! behold, He has told us before.
 
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BobRyan

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Matthew 24:31 does talk about the rapture of the Elect. But let's review Matthew 24 a bit more.

There is not one shred of biblical evidence of a conversion of millions to the gospel during the Great Tribulation. God tells us that the Great Tribulation will be a time when the love of God has grown cold, and the believers will be hated and persecuted, and iniquity will abound, and that there are so many false gospels, false Christs, and false prophets deceiving so greatly, that they would even deceive the very Chosen of God "IF" that were possible. Does that really sound like a phenomenal worldwide conversion at this time like the post-millennial?

Matthew 24:11-13
  • ""And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
  • And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
  • But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Matthew 24:21-25
  • ""For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
    beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
  • And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be
    saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
  • Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe
    it not.
  • For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew
    great signs and wonders
    ; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall
    deceive the very elect.
  • Behold, I have told you before."
In all seriousness, does this great tribulation period sound like the converting of millions like Post millennials or bringing together the Jews from the ends of the world to national Israel?? NO, on the contrary, it is tortuous of Scripture to claim that. It sounds like a famine of hearing the word of God in the unfaithful church all over the world where the elect are! It is not about a great bounty. It is a deception is so great that the gospel is being pinched off, not so preached that it is saving millions. It's a time of apostasy, departing from the faith, and false teachers. That's no revival, that's a desolation...of the New Testament church! That is what the Great Tribulation is talking about. Not about 7 years tribulation in Israel.

I'm sure you've read Matthew 24 and what Jesus has to say about the Great Tribulation, but have you not received what you have read? You've read it but have you heard it? The Lord will shorten the days and return on the clouds of glory "while" there is still flesh (The Chosen) left on earth! He has to or else these false prophets and their evil and iniquity abounding there would have killed all the Christians off. There would be none left for God to catch up in the clouds of glory at His second advent (commonly called the rapture). But there will be a rapture because God will shorten those days of tribulation. There will be those caught up in the heavens after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29).

Matthew 24:29-31
  • "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
  • And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then
    shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man
    coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
  • And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they
    shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven
    to the other
    ."
The rapture and judgment don't come UNTIL AFTER the great tribulation period. It will occur at the Last Trumpet. Not next to the Last, but the last (which means this trumpet of Matthew must be the last, because the rapture trumpet which says it is "The last Trumpet" cannot occur before this trumpet. Think about it. ..it's an impossibility for the last trumpet (1st Cor. 15:52) of the rapture (a rapture which you claim is before this Great Tribulation) to occur before the Matthew 24 trumpet. ..else it is not the last trumpet!

Matthew 24 makes it clear these false Christians dominate, they are ruling in the Temple (Churches - For example Joel Osteen, etc.) The question is, why don't these unfaithful Christians in this time of tribulation hear the gospel and reject the false teachings? The answer is BECAUSE they don't want to hear what God has to say. In all likelihood, those denying God's word are the very ones who it's speaking about as the deceived! Those wrestling God's word in order to have their way, those seeking signs and wonders, those attuned to false teachers, those with itching ears, and those bearing false witnesses to the truth. Read what God actually says about this time.

Matthew 24:21-26
  • ""for then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
  • And EXCEPT those days should be shortened, there should no flesh BE SAVED: but FOR THE CHOSEN'S SAKE those days shall be shortened.
  • then if any man shall say unto YOU, lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
  • For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great Signs and Wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall DECEIVE even the very chosen.
  • Behold, I have told you before.
  • Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, He is in the desert; go not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not."
How much clearer can Jesus say it. It's not a time of great revival of millions like PostMillennialism, on the CONTRARY, it's a time of great wickedness among those who believe, so much and so cleverly deceiving that it would even deceive the elect/chosen if it were possible. And Jesus tells us they'll hate "YOU," they'll persecute "YOU," they'll seek to deceive "YOU," they'll say to "YOU" here is Christ or there is Christ. And Jesus says to "YOU," don't Believe them! Don't follow them! It's "YOU" (Whom Christ is talking to) who they are after and try to deceive. And Jesus says, Behold, I've already told you about this before. ...And He has, but these people (as demonstrated here) just do not listen. But the Noble Bereans, the humble, the meek WILL listen and will HEAR. And what does Jesus tell "US" about the nature of those who come to deceive is.

#1 False Prophets
#2 False Christs

They are coming to deceive. And what does Jesus say is their method of deception? ..They come with Signs and Wonders to deceive! Same as in 2nd Thessalonians 2:2 where God warns the church about this coming apostasy of those in league with Satan coming with all Signs and LYING Wonders. There it is again. The warning to the Church. Because we'll be here. We need to know that Satan comes as a messenger of light who works through His False prophets and christs, the ministers of righteousness so we will not be deceived by their lying signs and wonders (false gospels). And what does the apostle Paul say to the church. The same thing Jesus said.

2nd Thessalonians 2:5
  • "Remembering ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things."
Yes, we have been told time and time again, in Matthew, in timothy, in 2nd Thessalonians, in Revelation, etc., etc. But some are just not listening and so they have no one to blame but themselves when they are deceived by these people come into the Church with their own authorities instead of the Word of God.

None of your teachers or the Dispensational authors have explained 'coherently' how Jesus is talking to the church in Matthew 24, telling them (WARNING US) about this coming time and how to endure to the end so that they'll be saved, and yet they teach we'll not even be here at this time of Great Tribulation or it only applies to the Jews in the Middle East. It cannot be talking only to Jews. The Lord is obviously talking to HIS CHURCH (where the Elect are), and so why would He be warning those who He's going to take out of the world before this happens, to watch for it and endure? It makes no sense because it's not true.

Matthew 24:9
  • "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake".
That "for Christ's name sake!" Those who take the name of Christ are the body of Christ, the church, and their names are Christians. There are not two salvation programs, there is only one body of Christ. How then are the Christians still here and being persecuted for His name sake, and yet people continue to insist that this is not true and claim they've been raptured because the Lord doesn't want His people going through "wrath?" Who then are these people if not the lord's people, and how then are they going through this for His namesake? Again, it makes no sense.

Inconsistency is the hallmark of error. And this isn't the only place God warns the church about this, so it's not subject to claims of it being an obscure reference, or just to the Jews. We will be here during the Tribulation, but "ONLY" those who have strength in Christ will endure to the end and be saved. The others (those not TRUSTING in the authority of His word) will be deceived and marked of the beast! behold, He has told us before.
Those are some very good points. Thanks.
 
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Douggg

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29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Bob, that translation is misleading.

It is not sky - but heaven. Jesus is coming from heaven, where He is now, down to earth in heavenly clouds. In Daniel 7:13 there are clouds in heaven.

Revelation 19:14, the armies of heaven -not sky - follow him.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
 
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BobRyan

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29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (NASB)(NASB 1955)
Bob, that translation is misleading.
BTW "good on you" as they say. I am looking for that sort of "details in the chapter" response whether it agrees with my POV not.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.(NKJV)

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. KJV

30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
31 and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof. (YLT)

In all the translations above we see "Clouds of heaven" where the Son of man comes from when viewed from Earth. We see saints gathered from that same heaven by Angels. They don't need to gather saints if the saints are already with the angels. This is about Jesus coming to Earth - appearing in the sky and the saints being gathered from the sky so they can be with the LORD.

Just as in NASB and NASB1955 we see the sign of the Son of man "appear in the sky", Son of man coming on "clouds of sky" - and the saints gathered from that same sky


It is not sky - but heaven.
Given that this where the clouds are -- in all those translations above and is where Jesus appears at his coming... I don't see this as the impossible rendering - and they all seem to make that connection.
Jesus is coming from heaven, where He is now, down to earth
But in the context of "Christ coming to Earth" it is normal for the reader to expect that "clouds are in our literal sky" and Jesus appears coming on clouds of the sky, "clouds of heaven"

Daniel 7 has a different context. Daniel 7 shows the Son of Man coming to the "Ancient of Days" in heaven (the third heaven) and a courtroom setup in heaven. No reference at all to this being a coming to Earth, (Like was the coming to Earth in Matt 24) , or tribes of Earth seeing it . the context in Dan 7 is not an earthly court.

But in Matt 24 the context is Christ's coming to Earth.

In Matt 24 it not the case of tribes of Earth looking into what Paul calls 'the third heaven' rather it is the case of Christ coming to Earth, and tribes on Earth seeing him in the clouds of the sky.

There is nothing in the chapter that argues against that - even in your post you are not pointing to some detail in the chapter telling us that the clouds of the sky, the clouds of heaven, (where heaven is where the birds fly according to Gen 1:20).

Gen 1: 20 (KJV/NKJV/NASB) Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens. (Clearly that is not the third heaven that Paul references - having its birds made on Planet Earth's 5th day)
20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”
 
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