Looking for answers and questioning

Hazelelponi said:

Can I ask questions then?

My husband and I aren't Lutheran because he feels they didn't go far enough in breaking away from Catholicism, and in being around them some I kind of agree. But we are reformed..I figure that's close anyway..

That said, so Orthodox doesn't teach the total depravity of man?

That seems weird to me because I actually believe in the total depravity of man.

Not here to argue...

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Total Depravity (AKA the "T" in TULIP) is a concept derived from Augustine's views of Original Sin. These were never a part of the theology in the East. .... If you go back to post #36, I posted a link for a rundown of the differences Orthodox, and Augustinian postions

RobNJ said:

Total Depravity (AKA the "T" in TULIP) is a concept derived from Augustine's views of Original Sin. These were never a part of the theology in the East. .... If you go back to post #36, I posted a link for a rundown of the differences Orthodox, and Augustinian postions

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okay ill do that, thank you..

ETA: Thays a gross misunderstanding of total depravity, it doesn't even talk about what the Bible says in the new testament.. But okay. You all think people are good somehow all by themselves without Christ..

definitely unusual...

gurneyhalleck1 said:

Somewhat depraved upon occasion?

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most occasions

RobNJ said:

Total Depravity (AKA the "T" in TULIP) is a concept derived from Augustine's views of Original Sin. These were never a part of the theology in the East. .... If you go back to post #36, I posted a link for a rundown of the differences Orthodox, and Augustinian postions

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it also wasn't even that much in the West until the Middle Ages after the Schism.

Hazelelponi said:

You all think people are good somehow all by themselves without Christ..

definitely unusual...

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I wouldn't say that - at ALL.

Hazelelponi said:

But okay. You all think people are good somehow all by themselves without Christ..

definitely unusual...

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no we don't, that would be the heresy called pelegianism. in fact, one of our liturgical silent prayers says we have done nothing good upon the earth.

ArmyMatt said:

no we don't, that would be the heresy called pelegianism. in fact, one of our liturgical silent prayers says we have done nothing good upon the earth.

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I closed that site and I'm not opening it up again to make sure I'm speaking correctly at this point, so forgive errors..

That website spent a lot of time trying to deny either man's sin nature or the fact sin came into the world at all as a result of the fall to then turn around and say you aren't good..

We are either born with a sin nature (and let's face it even a baby in diapers sins - covets etc) or we arent. If we are born with a sin nature, its connected to the fall and sin entering into the world as indicated biblically. But on the other hand if someone says we have no sin nature, then they have gone into the realm of heresy because the Bible is clear that we all have a sin nature, and have it from birth.

And that website sat and taught against a sin nature coming into the world with Adam. A sin nature isn't "punishment" because Adam sinned, remedy was given and we are judged on our response to that remedy.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

Without the fall sin would not have entered the world at all and we never would have sinned. So, whether we were created with the sin nature but no exposure to sin (not my vote) or whether Adam brought the sin nature into the world is semantics really.

If there was no sin nature we would be able to chose good apart from Christ, and that is what doctrines of having no nature of sin teaches.. that good or evil is able to be chosen apart from Christ.

It's why those who espouse the doctrine (such as Islam does) also don't usually teach salvation through Christ and Christ alone.

So, I might not be clear in exactly what that website was trying to say, but I am clear on one thing. That it's not a biblical thing..

Sin "nature" is a whole other issue.

Again, we can misunderstand each other.

We are born with a bent towards self and sin. We all choose to sin. Everyone sins. It is a consequence of the fall - through one man (Adam) sin and death entered.

We are not "good" in ourselves.

But "sin nature" implies something not quite correct.

Hazelelponi said:

I closed that site and I'm not opening it up again to make sure I'm speaking correctly at this point, so forgive errors..

That website spent a lot of time trying to deny either man's sin nature or the fact sin came into the world at all as a result of the fall to then turn around and say you aren't good..

We are either born with a sin nature (and let's face it even a baby in diapers sins - covets etc) or we arent. If we are born with a sin nature, its connected to the fall and sin entering into the world as indicated biblically. But on the other hand if someone says we have no sin nature, then they have gone into the realm of heresy because the Bible is clear that we all have a sin nature, and have it from birth.

And that website sat and taught against a sin nature coming into the world with Adam. A sin nature isn't "punishment" because Adam sinned, remedy was given and we are judged on our response to that remedy.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

Without the fall sin would not have entered the world at all and we never would have sinned. So, whether we were created with the sin nature but no exposure to sin (not my vote) or whether Adam brought the sin nature into the world is semantics really.

If there was no sin nature we would be able to chose good apart from Christ, and that is what doctrines of having no nature of sin teaches.. that good or evil is able to be chosen apart from Christ.

It's why those who espouse the doctrine (such as Islam does) also don't usually teach salvation through Christ and Christ alone.

So, I might not be clear in exactly what that website was trying to say, but I am clear on one thing. That it's not a biblical thing..

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there is no such thing as a sin nature. that phrase is not found in Scripture. sin, by definition, has no positive existence on its own. it has no nature. sin is a perversion of what God creates by His allowance.

fallen nature is still good, only that which is good is perverted to an erroneous end. but nothing created is by nature sinful.

ArmyMatt said:

there is no such thing as a sin nature. that phrase is not found in Scripture. sin, by definition, has no positive existence on its own. it has no nature. sin is a perversion of what God creates by His allowance.

fallen nature is still good, only that which is good is perverted to an erroneous end. but nothing created is by nature sinful.

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Two natures in the saved man. One Flesh, one Spirit. Galatians 5:16-25 The Spirit is the Holy Spirit given to believers upon salvation and not something they are born with. Ephesians 1:13 Romans 8:9 After receiving it we can then chose that which is of the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14 Psalms 58:3

Therefore "sin nature" is just a good way to explain our flesh nature that cannot chose the things of God, whereby the only remedy is salvation through Jesus the Christ; being covered in the blood of Jesus and given a new Spirit.

Anyway, that was very informative for me about your sect.

Hazelelponi said:

Two natures of man. One Flesh, one Spirit. Galatians 5:16-25 The Spirit is the Holy Spirit given to believers upon salvation and not something they are born with. Ephesians 1:13 Romans 8:9 After which we can then chose that which is of the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14 Psalm 58:3

Therefore "sin nature" is just a good way to explain our flesh nature that cannot chose the things of God, whereby the only remedy is salvation through Jesus the Christ; being covered in the blood of Jesus and given a new Spirit.

Anyway, that was very informative for me about your sect.

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you can say what you want, but what you are saying is not Biblical. sin nature is not found in Scripture and what you said is not the only way that flesh is defined.

dario68w said:

As Lutherans we believe teach and confess that Humans are made good. Original sin corrupted all mankind not to make our nature evil, for creation is good. But this corruption infected all mankind that we are inclined towards evil from birth. That is why we use the term inherantly sinful.

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we would agree only that being sinful, especially since the Incarnation, is not inherent to man.

ArmyMatt said:

we would agree only that being sinful, especially since the Incarnation, is not inherent to man.

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Father, if I may ask?

Do I understand correctly? How do I word this ... ?

For example, Christ sanctified the waters through His baptism. He sanctified humanity by becoming human. Is this the correct way to say that?

And if so, do you say that man is not inherently sinful since the Incarnation - because Christ being divine, having been incarnate in human flesh - has sanctified human flesh?

Not to say that all are "already saved". But doing the job of Great High Priest in reconciling the creation (particularly mankind) to God?

Am I making mistakes in here?

But we still believe that because the world is infected with sin, and we are still born inclined to selfishness and sin - we do sin of course.

Does any of that need correcting? And is that why you said this in response above?

Thank you. Sorry for what's probably a basic question.

There is no abstract concept of "human nature" which exists apart from the concrete individuals, the human persons. A nature in itself cannot fall, only human persons can. As such, we cannot talk about the human nature itself being sinful. The idea of a fallen nature is a concept derived from Augustine's teachings about the original sin, which were never accepted in the East. For some reason, the western Christendom especially after Great Schism adopted Augustine's ideas as the only basis for their theology on the subject and developed a new understanding of the human condition and the fall of mankind. According to the idea, all humans inherit the sin and guilt of Adam and are in a cursed state from their birth: completely unable to seek God, personally guilty and judged to death by God, and unable to choose to do good, all due to Adam's sin which is transmitted to all of mankind.

In contrast, according to the Orthodox faith and consensus of the pre-schism Church, we live in a world which is, due to Adam's fall, subject to corruption and death, and consequently, sin. This is our inheritance from him: our mortality which predisposes us to sin. However, even if we are beset by a corrupted world in which we all fall constantly due to our human weakness and the grievous conditions that surround us, we still retain our free will. Even in our weakness, we understand that each of us is personally responsible for our actions. We do not blame God, Adam or our nature for the sins we commit, but we take responsibility and come back to God every time we fall through repentance and are lifted up by his all-encompassing love.

If the post-fall humanity itself was inherently sinful, God would be the author of sin and death. Indeed this is what many non-Orthodox Christians believe: that God himself imposed on the whole humanity a legal penalty of death due to the transgression of Adam and Eve. Thus, they make God the author of death. In contrast, the Orthodox see not God as the author of death, but Satan. Through Satan tempting man, man turned away from the source of Life, God. The natural and only possible consequence of man separating himself from the only source of life was a fall into death and corruption, through which Satan gained domination over the mankind and the rest of creation. This is exactly why Christ became man, and "shared in...humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil". (Heb 2:14)

So as Orthodox Christians we realize that we live in a world in which we are beset by death and corruption, and albeit our technically free will, we easily fall into sin time and time again. But this is not due to our nature itself being fallen but due our mortality which we inherited from Adam, and due to us living in conditions in which we practically cannot avoid sinning.

However, through His incarnation, death and resurrection Christ has already conquered death, glorified our humanity, and given us the means to participate in his victory over Satan and Death through the life of the Church and especially through the Holy Eucharist. We are no in complete bondage to sin, but in as much as we grow towards Christ and make space for him to live in us, we enjoy a foretaste of paradise already in this life. We do not achieve anything good from our own strength, but only through God's mercy, which we cultivate in us through repentance, prayer, and the liturgical life of the Church.

~Anastasia~ said:

Father, if I may ask?

Do I understand correctly? How do I word this ... ?

For example, Christ sanctified the waters through His baptism. He sanctified humanity by becoming human. Is this the correct way to say that?

And if so, do you say that man is not inherently sinful since the Incarnation - because Christ being divine, having been incarnate in human flesh - has sanctified human flesh?

Not to say that all are "already saved". But doing the job of Great High Priest in reconciling the creation (particularly mankind) to God?

Am I making mistakes in here?

But we still believe that because the world is infected with sin, and we are still born inclined to selfishness and sin - we do sin of course.

Does any of that need correcting? And is that why you said this in response above?

Thank you. Sorry for what's probably a basic question.

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looks good to me. we were never naturally sinful, but we were held by sin. Christ obliterated sin's hold on us.

ArmyMatt said:

looks good to me. we were never naturally sinful, but we were held by sin. Christ obliterated sin's hold on us.

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Thank you Father.