Longer term effects of Trump or Biden wins

MorkandMindy

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I'm way over on the Left and on the side of being kind, so this might be a bit hard to understand but I'm very concerned about the long term effects of large scale immigration.

I was an immigrant for many years, in England, and even the culture change between the US and England was a constant source of uncertainty. I guess now it would be possible to look it up on the Internet, but looking back I can see that the people I got on best there were other immigrants or children of immigrants.

The kindest thing to do would be to stop moving people around.

The cruelest things done recently were funding the rebels in Syria, and now 50% of Syrians are refugees, and bombing Libya.

I know US companies want to flood this country with cheap labor but there are less stressful ways to boost profits than moving people.
 

Halbhh

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I'm try to make it really brief.

Biden wins: status quo mostly, not really doing harm, nor really helping a lot, but that might be fine, as America is able to self-heal given a chance.

Trump wins: Likely Trump will continue such clearly unChristian actions as demonizing groups like refugees, slandering governmental watchdogs and other handy scapegoats, and while most people will be immune to such harmful ideas, a sizable portion of people will just believe whatever Trump says, and his chosen supporters he retweets or otherwise spreads ideas from.
Also, among non believers knowing little or nothing about Christianity, Trump will continue to make it appear as if Christianity is fake, or even harmful, as they will take him as an example of Christianity must be, and represent, and the values of Christianity, not knowing any better. Trump might even be the key actor to create the conditions that will lead eventually to a widespread reaction and demonization of Christianity and then the persecutions of Christians prophesized for the last days. (or Trump may be only just 1 of a number of many steps towards those days) We should not fear if we truly believe in Christ though. He as overcome the world, and all here will be destroyed. We look to the Life to come.
 
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Halbhh

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Does this affect how you'll be voting?
Yes. I'd not knowingly vote for someone that I can see is harming Christian witness as Trump has been doing, by claiming very publicly to be Christian but doing the opposite of what Christ instructed so often.
 
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Halbhh

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Is Christianity able to be harmed?
Not in essence! Useful to point out that unclear wording. (but i'm not of that viewpoint that all that will be saved are preselected individually, so that Christian witness has little effect. I think there is real choice involved.) Thanks!
 
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Tree of Life

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Not in essence! Useful to point out that unclear wording. (but i'm not of that viewpoint that all that will be saved are preselected individually, so that Christian witness has little effect. I think there is real choice involved.) Thanks!

So will you be voting for Biden?
 
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Fantine

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I have seen both sides of the argument on whether the best way to stop immigration from poor countries is to raise the standard of living in those countries by free trade agreements--NAFTA, for example. Heritage Foundation says it does:
How Free Trade and Economic Freedom Help the Poor
Huff Post says it doesn't:
Free Trade Isn't Helping World Poverty | HuffPost

If free trade served to improve the standard of living in Mexico (for example) to the point where Mexicans no longer wanted to immigrate to the United States that could be a good thing. Mexicans could remain in their home countries with their families. There wouldn't be as much competition for American jobs, and our unemployment would go down.

Unfortunately that's not a given (although I have heard that far fewer Mexicans are emigrating--that most of the immigrants come from Central America, which is poorer than Mexico.)
 
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Halbhh

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So will you be voting for Biden?
Yes, as the less dangerous individual, less likely to harm Americans, my neighbors.
(also, I noticed that Trump has ended up causing more covid 19 spread by setting an example of rare mask wearing back in June, when it mattered (not to mention some recent rhetoric during recent rallies), which of course will kill more Americans, so this isn't only theory; while he says he's pro life, his actions speak differently to me)

(Just as an aid for some that would wrongly imagine I have a loyalty to some political party, I voted I think for about 4 or 5 republicans (not all were labeled, such as judges for instance), and a few more democrats. Here locally many centrist but better quality candidates choose to run as democrats to better get elected)
 
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Tree of Life

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Yes, as the less dangerous individual, less likely to harm Americans, my neighbors.

I wonder how you make this calculation. Did you know that 1,000 black babies are aborted every day? Do you think that practices like this are more likely to continue under Biden or Trump?
 
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Goonie

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I'm way over on the Left and on the side of being kind, so this might be a bit hard to understand but I'm very concerned about the long term effects of large scale immigration.

I was an immigrant for many years, in England, and even the culture change between the US and England was a constant source of uncertainty. I guess now it would be possible to look it up on the Internet, but looking back I can see that the people I got on best there were other immigrants or children of immigrants.

The kindest thing to do would be to stop moving people around.

The cruelest things done recently were funding the rebels in Syria, and now 50% of Syrians are refugees, and bombing Libya.

I know US companies want to flood this country with cheap labor but there are less stressful ways to boost profits than moving people.
One of the best ways to deal with immigration is to stop destabilising your neighbors. Be it Mexico and the stupid war on drugs, to the middle east.
 
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GreatLakes4Ever

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I wonder how you make this calculation. Did you know that 1,000 black babies are aborted every day? Do you think that practices like this are more likely to continue under Biden or Trump?

Trump. Republicans can’t actually outlaw abortion. They already have no hope in a straight popular vote, remove the sole reason some people vote Republican and it will get worse.

Under Biden you are more likely to see mandatory sex education including consent and birth control, free and accessible birth control, mandatory paid maternity and paternity leave, paid childcare, universal health coverage for expectant mothers and children. These things will reduce the abortion rate much more than Republicans screeching about the horrors of it.
 
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hedrick

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There are lots of concerns about economics, restoring democratic practices, etc. But from a long-term point of view I'm most concerned about our relationship with the world. By pulling back from allies, and not dealing intelligently with China or Russia, we're very close to allowing China to become the de facto world leader. I think in another four years of Trump that might be impossible to reverse.
 
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dqhall

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I'm way over on the Left and on the side of being kind, so this might be a bit hard to understand but I'm very concerned about the long term effects of large scale immigration.

I was an immigrant for many years, in England, and even the culture change between the US and England was a constant source of uncertainty. I guess now it would be possible to look it up on the Internet, but looking back I can see that the people I got on best there were other immigrants or children of immigrants.

The kindest thing to do would be to stop moving people around.

The cruelest things done recently were funding the rebels in Syria, and now 50% of Syrians are refugees, and bombing Libya.

I know US companies want to flood this country with cheap labor but there are less stressful ways to boost profits than moving people.
Immigrants have been coming to the US for decades. Some high tech and medical workers from came legally with and have enriched us. They came by plane with tourist visas and did not go back. They crossed the Rio Grande into Texas. They came by raft from Cuba. Many years ago Boston was complaining about the Italian immigrants who were moving into their neighborhoods. They came by boat without visas. They were called WOPS, “without papers.” Eventually they learned English and their ancestors live in houses they built in the same Italian American neighborhood. President Trump’s wife Melania came to the US from Czechoslovakia or Slovenia as they now call it. She was working as a model without the proper papers. She was able to get citizenship.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I see some really concerning long-term negatives with regards both Biden and Trump.

In terms of some concerning traits they share
- Neither seems to be too concerned about the prospect of delegitimizing one of our 3 branches of government (the Judicial I'm referring to)
- Both seem to want to pander to the least desirable wings of their respective parties

In terms of some concerning traits where they're unique
- Trump is more concerned about the perception of "being tough on <insert trade rival here>" rather than working toward a balanced meaningful policy.
- Trump tends to want to be (and pander to those who are) "Anti-PC", while I think political correctness goes to far, there are sometimes when it makes sense so being Anti-PC for the sake of "opposing the other side is stupid
- Trump seems to refuse to budge from fossil fuels (nor is there any evidence that he'll change his tune on addressing climate change)

- Biden seems concerned with fulfilling his dream he's had since the 80's of being president, and while he tries to give the perception of being a moderate (and he, himself, might be...I can't read his mind), he's not going to be in charge forever (I'll be shocked if he makes it through one full term), and the people he's surrounding himself with (who will be poised to make a lot of the decisions) are certainly not moderate. Kamala has one of the most left-wing voting records in the Senate - and has brazenly laughed off constitutional violations and shown that she has no dignity or scruples when it comes to pursuit of political goals (her cackling and saying 'it was a debate' and laughing off the fact that she had basically accused her own running mate of being a sex offender), and some of the names he's floated names like Beto for being in charge of national gun control policy, and according to politico, he's already been in talks with people like Karen Bass and Eric Garcetti for potential cabinet positions.

The far left or far right, left to their own devices and unopposed, creates a country none of us want to live in. I don't want to live in a society where people proudly reject science, and theocratic rules are imposed from the top down...nor do I want to live in a country where people rationalize burning down a building because their mad or destroying someone's livelihood over a "problematic" social media post from 11 years ago.


But hey, in November 2024, for those of us who make it through the covid crisis, when we're voting between Milo Yiannopolis and AOC for president, maybe people will finally get the hint and understand why moderation is so important. ...but I won't get my hopes up.


I'm hoping I'm wrong and 2024 looks like
Tulsi vs. Charlie Baker
or
Pete Buttigieg vs. John Kasich
 
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Halbhh

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I wonder how you make this calculation. Did you know that 1,000 black babies are aborted every day? Do you think that practices like this are more likely to continue under Biden or Trump?
Abortions fell sharply under Obama.

But rose under Trump in 2018, in 6 of the 7 states I found data about.

Why? I think Obama set a great example for young adults of loving and faithful marriage.

Trump infamously had a different history.

Young adults notice. Some follow such example, thinking, "I'll do what he did."

Are you pro life? If yes, I say it's more pro life to vote for Biden. Even just for the abortion issue. Then... consider the lives of the already born, also.
 
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JackRT

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Under Biden you are more likely to see mandatory sex education including consent and birth control, free and accessible birth control, mandatory paid maternity and paternity leave, paid childcare, universal health coverage for expectant mothers and children. These things will reduce the abortion rate much more than Republicans screeching about the horrors of it.

These policies are proven to reduce the abortion rate dramatically. For example, Canada has no law regarding abortion at all and our medicare system completely funds abortion. It also funds all prenatal care, counseling, testing delivery and postnatal care. You might think that abortion would be greater in Canada but you would be wrong. The USA abortion rate is 50% higher than Canada's.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I see some really concerning long-term negatives with regards both Biden and Trump.

In terms of some concerning traits they share
- Neither seems to be too concerned about the prospect of delegitimizing one of our 3 branches of government (the Judicial I'm referring to)
- Both seem to want to pander to the least desirable wings of their respective parties

In terms of some concerning traits where they're unique
- Trump is more concerned about the perception of "being tough on <insert trade rival here>" rather than working toward a balanced meaningful policy.
- Trump tends to want to be (and pander to those who are) "Anti-PC", while I think political correctness goes to far, there are sometimes when it makes sense so being Anti-PC for the sake of "opposing the other side is stupid
- Trump seems to refuse to budge from fossil fuels (nor is there any evidence that he'll change his tune on addressing climate change)

- Biden seems concerned with fulfilling his dream he's had since the 80's of being president, and while he tries to give the perception of being a moderate (and he, himself, might be...I can't read his mind), he's not going to be in charge forever (I'll be shocked if he makes it through one full term), and the people he's surrounding himself with (who will be poised to make a lot of the decisions) are certainly not moderate. Kamala has one of the most left-wing voting records in the Senate - and has brazenly laughed off constitutional violations and shown that she has no dignity or scruples when it comes to pursuit of political goals (her cackling and saying 'it was a debate' and laughing off the fact that she had basically accused her own running mate of being a sex offender), and some of the names he's floated names like Beto for being in charge of national gun control policy, and according to politico, he's already been in talks with people like Karen Bass and Eric Garcetti for potential cabinet positions.

The far left or far right, left to their own devices and unopposed, creates a country none of us want to live in. I don't want to live in a society where people proudly reject science, and theocratic rules are imposed from the top down...nor do I want to live in a country where people rationalize burning down a building because their mad or destroying someone's livelihood over a "problematic" social media post from 11 years ago.


But hey, in November 2024, for those of us who make it through the covid crisis, when we're voting between Milo Yiannopolis and AOC for president, maybe people will finally get the hint and understand why moderation is so important. ...but I won't get my hopes up.


I'm hoping I'm wrong and 2024 looks like
Tulsi vs. Charlie Baker
or
Pete Buttigieg vs. John Kasich

If I had to pick the one thing that bothers me most about the left is that it's very hard to tell what they believe anymore. It could be my imagination but it seemed they used to claim to hold tolerance and honest discourse in high regard. Now? It looks like they have abandoned their values. I don't even think they know what they believe...I've had more conversations about the terms they have adopted and it's apparent that they all have wildly different interpretations.

If I were more skeptical...I'd say that they simply agree with the worst minority actors out of fear of losing the political support they bring. I don't think that's what happened though...because it really just looked like intellectual bullying. "If you say what we say, we won't label you as part of the problem, or on the wrong side of history".

The result was the intellectual left disappearing. Do they really believe in the things they say? I don't know. They know they have careers and reputations they don't want ruined. I don't think they remotely understand the problems they claim to want to fix. They have bought into childish and extremely simplistic narratives and I was honestly expecting them to push back against them. They rolled over instead.

I don't see it ending well for anyone...particular those they claim to support.
 
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