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long hair for women

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by 2ducklow, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Guest

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    I am not the one who is insisting that a headcovering is a specific garment called a veil. In fact, the Greek text makes no reference to such a garment. It does, however, go to great length to explain why a woman ought to cover her head (an act of her volition) and why a man ought not to cover his head (another act of volition).

    Unfortunately, you have not answer the question in my post, to wit:

    "So, if I understand you correctly, verse six could be translated as, "For if a woman has short hair or is bald while praying or prophesying, let her have short hair or shave her head, but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have short hair or her head shaved, let her have hair." Is this a fair understanding of what you take this verse to mean?"

    A simple yes or no will suffice to answer the question, if you please.
     
  2. 2ducklow

    2ducklow angel duck

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    i have nothing further to say..
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  3. Cuddles333

    Cuddles333 Well-Known Member

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    So if a man prays in church with something like this on his head he sins:




    [​IMG]
     
  4. 2ducklow

    2ducklow angel duck

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    I believe any man praying with his head covered dishonors his head.

    1 cor 11.4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonors his head.

    I'm unsure if a man is covering his head with a hat, most churches I've been in don't allow men to wear a hat because of 1 cor. 11. I always take my hat off when I pray when away from the church except if it's real cold or say not possible cause I'm driving down the freeway and don't have time to remove it cause all I have time to say is "help Jesus" in order to avoid an accident. but I see that as being different.
    13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for [her] hair is given to her for a covering.


    vers 13 says it's improper for a woman to pray with her head uncovered. vers 14 says long hair dishonors a man, verse 15 says long hair is a covering. so verse 4 which says,

    4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonors his head.

    could logicaly, in light of verses 13 - 15, be taken to mean that the covering verse 4 refers to is long hair.

    my thought is take your hat of guys, play it safe.


    clearly long hair on a woman and a man is a covering, and men are told not to have it.

    But ask yourself the question, 'why is it that only people who believe that men should have short hair and women should have long hair are interpreting the scriptures in 1 cor. 11?"
    you aren't trying to interpret those scriptures, just trying find ways to get around them. First it was throw away 1 cor. 11 cause there aren't any more female religous prostitutes, now it's arabs wear hats so throw away 1 cor 11. (that's what you're implying)
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  5. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    I believe that we should keep our heads covered ... remember YHWH Himself ordained head coverings for the priests and high priests, all of whom ministered in His Presence. Those who believe in Him and in His Son today are also priests.

    Only a man's tradition would try to annul & reverse His ruling.

    "Thus have you made the commandment of YHWH of none effect by your tradition." Mt 15:6
     
  6. 2ducklow

    2ducklow angel duck

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    oops faux pas
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  7. Noxot

    Noxot OwO Supporter

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    we should just stone men who have long hair and woman who have short hair.

    after all, having long or short have is so very relevant to the condition of the human heart.
     
  8. rdcast

    rdcast Regular Member

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    If it's a sin, it's a visible sin. That beam in our eye should remind us of the hidden sins we all secretly harbor. Who's kicking us out of some building for that?
     
  9. 2ducklow

    2ducklow angel duck

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    I think too.
     
  10. 2ducklow

    2ducklow angel duck

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    Nah, no way. what it is is men with long hair should put their hair up in curlers every night. and women with crew cuts should put butch wax on their hair. I use to use butch wax. They prob. don't have butch wax no more, but I'm sure they have some equivalent. Butch wax for girls and perms fer guys, that's todays world.

    Hummmmmmm, if a woman has a burr hair cut and uses butch wax, is it ok to call her Butch? I had a childhood friend we called Butch, he had a butch hair cut, but then so did most all of us.

    I got an idea. let's do a poll and see how many guys put their long hair up in curlers every night, and how many gals with crew cuts use butch wax. ok?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
  11. loveisavirtue14

    loveisavirtue14 Newbie

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    I have somewhat struggled with this chapter, but have come to a conclusion that it was specific to the Corinthian culture. I have heard a lot of interpretations, like long hair means "ornamented tresses" or something in Greek. Also, as an African it is not naturally possible for me to have "long" hair". God really doesn't seem to have a problem with long hair on men (Nazirites) or men with their heads covered (High Preist wore a turban). But God looks at the heart, not at human appearances. It seems like a custom to me, like now it is not a common custom in many churches. If it was a law, it would be a lot more specific, some versions say head coverings, some say veils, heard that what is called head covering is actually a floor-length veil. Also I can't clearly understand whether it is advocating long hair as a covering, or an actual head covering. Furthermore, if I was going to begin to cover my hair, I would cover all of it; I don't get those Mennonite bonnets that don't cover all the hair, is it just a hat?
     
  12. loveisavirtue14

    loveisavirtue14 Newbie

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    Also I am a believer in the finished work of Christ and I think that I don't need to follow any laws to be right in the sight of God, so the way some people view this chapter it is looking a lot like a law.
     
  13. 2ducklow

    2ducklow angel duck

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    So the law that says 'thou shalt not steal, commit adultry, bear false witnesses, etc" you don't need to obey it cause it's a law, so you can go out an steal, commit adultry, brear false witness etc, cause you believe in the finished work of the law.

    So in the NT it says that we should be baptised, have communion, give to the poor, have love for our neighbor, etc. but we don't need to obey those laws cause they are laws, So since we believe in the finished word of Christ we can go out and not get baptised, ignore communion, give nothing to the poor, hate our neighbors , grow long hair if we are guys and whack it all off if we are gals, cause we believe in the finished work of Christ.
    That's taking your logic to it's logical conclusion. reject 1 cor. 11, reject all of the bible just trust in the finished work of God. Go out and do whatever you want, even murder, cause laws aren't meant to be obeyed anymore. Or maybe only the biggies are to be obeyed, like don't commit murder, anything less than that you don't have to obey? Or is it pick and choose? obey the ones you like and disobey the ones you don't like?

    Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    "every word" includes all of 1 cor 11.

    Romans 6:18 and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.

    being made free from the law means being made free from sin. It is the desire to sin that the law was made for. When one no longer has the desire to sin, one is free from the law. Being free from the law does not mean one can go out and commit adultry, fornication, steal, cheat lie, whatever he or she wants to do, cross dress, or cross hair.

    I don't smoke, or drink, or cuss cause some law says I can't do those things. I don't cause I have no desire to do thoses things. the Lord has set me free from the law. The law was made to condemn us, and the law doesn't condem me cause i don't have a desire to do those things, if I did, then the law would condemn me in my own heart.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  14. 2ducklow

    2ducklow angel duck

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    some things are crystal clear in that chapter, and I believe that carefull examination will reveal, as I pointed out how earlier, that long hair is the covering, or veil that God is specifically speaking in that chapter. When God said

    1 cor. 11.6.For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.

    it is clear from verse 15 that the covering refered to is long hair, not a hat, no verse says anything about a hat. you may have a case for hats not being a covering, but you have no case for long hair not being a head covering.

    1 cor 11. 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for [her] hair is given to her for a covering.

    So God gives women long hair as a covering, and you call it a human custom, and decide to whack off the long hair God gave you for a covering , cause it was a custom back then. So that means Customs in times past based on God's word, are to be ignored if it isn't ALSO a modern day custom.

    You say you struggle with this chapter, yet you won't interpret individual verses like the ones I posted above cause if you do , you'd have to say the things i put in the preceeding paragrah here. Instead of your broad stroke 'it's a custom ignore it" intepretation. That interpretation doesn't work when put to the test on specific verses in that chapter.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  15. RickardoHolmes

    RickardoHolmes Guest

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    I have to agree with you there too. It was specific for that culture.
    I am a guy and I have very long hair, and a beard. How long? think 80's Rock star that never decided to change ...

    God cares what is in our hearts, and not what is on our heads.

    My long is hair is part of who I am. People can choose not to accept it, that is their choice. But it remains.

    Just remember, this long haired rock-star looking guy has saved a lot of lives in his career, and brought untold relief to the suffering of many. So before we go making a non-issue about appearances, before we go being all that shallow, let us look to works not to appearances.

    I don't think something written by Paul to the Corinthians need apply to us. I have had a lot of people get angry with me because I do not accept Paul on my spiritual pantheon and do not give much creedence to much of his writings. I would say that since I do not believe in Paul much, his writings like the one mentioned regarding long hair do not apply to me. Paul does not inspire me.
    I don't give much creedence to Joseph Smith or his command to take multiple wives either. Joseph Smith is not on my list of "people from whom to take spiritual advice ."
    I also don't give much concern or thought to the Quran telling me to stone witches. Muhammed, while a great prophet to many, is not MY Prophet. So Muhammed's commands do not apply to me either.

    What does apply is Jesus' love and acceptance. I do not for one minute believe that Jesus was so shallow of a person that he would have cared how people looked. He seemed to have unconditional love for Lepers and the deformities caused by Hansen's Disease, and that makes a person physically uglier than even me. I don't think Jesus was that shallow.

    I am also a very physically unattractive person. I am friendly, but not a pushover, somewhat introverted, independent, educated, but not good looking. Many people will not talk to me becaue I am the big ugly guy.
    Like I care, because if someone does not want to talk to me or sit with me at church or whatever because of my looks, am I missing out on some shallow superficial person that cares only about looks? Seriously?

    I don't for one second believe that Jesus would do that either. Paul would, because Paul was all about Paul, and he was shallow and unenlightened. Jesus would not have tooped to Paul's level, and Paul never had the knowledge or inspiration or love to overcome his own EGO and rise to Jesus' level.

    The store where I shop has this guy who lost his arms in the war. He has to wear fake hooks and I see people staring at him all the time. Like he could help it, like he is doing something wrong by working and drawing a Paycheck. Everytime I see him, I walk by call him by name, ask him how he is doing, just to let him know that some of us, regardless of our appearance, are really nice people and really care how someone else is doing. We are not judging people by Apprearance like Paul would, we are loving unconditionally like Jesus would. There is a difference.
     
  16. rdcast

    rdcast Regular Member

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    Ye shall not grow long hair if you're a man, is not one of the 10
    Tho when I was a teen agnostic eons ago, my hair was longer than any female I knew or had seen. Down to my hips in fact. But then, I was rebelling against God at the time.
     
  17. seeingeyes

    seeingeyes Newbie

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    I gotta disagree with this. I think Paul gets a bad rap.

    I think Paul would have agreed with you that he was speaking specifically to the Corinthians. (After all, he wasn't writing a treatise on godly hairstyles, he was writing a letter to the Corinthians.) Remember, the hair thing comes later on in the letter after Paul says:

    "Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?"

    The stuff about who has what kind of hair and who is suing who and who is visiting prostitutes, all of this stuff is milk. The Corinthians were using their 'freedom in Christ' to act like whores and lunatics, not brothers and sisters in Christ. And they were bashing each other with the politics of who-said-what. So Paul laid down some ground rules.

    This is reminiscent to me of the Israelites begging for a king. So God gave them Saul. The Corinthians were begging for some rules. So Paul gave them rules.

    So when someone says, "you gotta take that braid out of your hair, Paul said so!" Just remember that this is milk and not meat. Remember that you are talking to a weaker brother, who may very well need the milk, 'cause he's got no teeth yet.

    Because we absolutely should listen to Paul who said:
    "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

    That's meaty right there. :)
     
  18. rdcast

    rdcast Regular Member

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    Jesus Christ stuck out among men, outwardly ugly perhaps. So ugly He was beautiful by virtue of His distinct ugliness. Sorry you're so sensitive over your ugliness. You simply don't know how to turn it to your advantage.

    Your criticism of Paul is concerning. That exposes your own insecurity. Has he harmed you in any way?
     
  19. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Guest

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    Well, it seems that it depends on whether or not his head is "covered". That is, does he have long hair under that thingamajig or is it short? ;)
     
  20. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Guest

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    If hair is the covering that Paul is referring to in I Corinthians 11 it would not matter at all what a man has over his hair as long as his hair is not covering his head, would it?
     
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