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Logos Catholic books electronic collect for 100s of $. OpinionsWanted! (Lenghty post)

Discussion in 'The Catholic Bookshelf' started by Unix, Mar 29, 2012.

What would suit Unix? (If You don't have a personal recommendation, don't vote.)

  1. Happy studies! [url="http://www.christianforums.com/t7541241-post59797152/"]Fine with rare[/url]

  2. The core content of the Logos collections seem too have too orthodox teaching for Unix's taste!

  3. Save to a moped-car instead! (Unix is really fond of moped-cars.)

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    There's still time for You to give opinions. I have tried to get some of those I've discussed with the most, to give opinions. So far not many more than ebia (who has more traditional views than me) has replied.

    What does everyone think of the Catholic material available to Logos 4 library builder?
    Check this search:
    catholic library - Logos Bible Software
    1) One disadvantage, is that there's no NRSV-CE available to Logos, that's strange IMHO. Actually I think NRSV-CE is a bad version, but I use for example a Gn commentary that happens to specifically have the NRSV-CE as text, and a book I have and which is very practical: Christianity The Complete Guide, edited John Bowden, Continuum, 2005, cites from the NRSV.
    Of course what's more irritating is that the Confraternity Version is not avaible. Although it's not available electronically in any competing software anyway.

    I notice that there has still not been developed a Catholic Edition reverse interlinear English-Greek of the Septuagint Deuterocanon since the Brent Septuagint (and it's not reverse, is it?): Amazon.com: David Bennett's review of The Septuagint with Apocrypha: Greek and E... - the NRSV Apocrypha (note: not NRSV-CE edition strangely enough even though Catholics are more numerous) is Under Development but done very soon, and it's not even included in the Original Languages base package and will not be. AND I would have prefered they make a REB Apocrypha reverse interlinear.
    I'm getting a 15% discount on expensive items/packages above $200.

    2) An clear disadvantage of the Catholic Library Builder (238 volumes), is that they've included 7 items by Raymond E. Brown. I really don't like that author, You see!
    - Possible optional sollution to exclude Raymond E. Brown -books: to have Catholic Foundations Library - Logos Bible Software $245 -15% (has John MacEvilly commentaries instead).
    - ...advantage of the option: New Living Translation & NKJV excluded, Lives of the Saints excluded, some 2012 item(s?) included, A Marginal Jew excluded, excludes James Bohn
    - ...disadvantage of the option: fewer volumes, Bible dictionary included, Holman Bible Atlas Charts Maps Reconstructions included, a little bit fewer commentaries

    One difference between the packages is that the Catholic Library Builder seeks to understand/contrast to some denominations (Joseph Pole & John Henry Newman included), while the Catholic Foundations Libary does not.

    IF YOU STILL WANT TO VOTE: GO TO: http://www.christianforums.com/t7647231/
    ON THE POLLS: please don't vote if You don't have experience of the Catholic material (either that You have downloaded it or have it available some other way or read through earlier on) in the packages to Logos, OR know me a bit and can therefore personally address a recommendation.

    WHAT'S BUGGING ME THE MOST, is that I'm interested in the Catholic Foundations Library, but it seems to contain a whole lot of books with traditional Catholic view, and VERY little with less orthodox, more critical, or even more liberal views. Although keep in mind, that I'm a fundamentalist when it comes to some beliefs!

    I post often about which parts of the Bible not to read, and I believe that Bible versions have to be critical, more critical than the major versions are. I don't select versions based on how popular they are right now. I'm not converted to Catholicism yet. I post some in the Unorthodox theology forum.

    Of course I believe in the core aspects of Catholic definition of the faith, such as what the Eucharist is believed to be, the Resurrection, the Trinity, etc. So I'm a real Christian. I don't doubt EVERYTHING. And I have a strong belief in Scripture, i.e. in the parts I read. I'm NOT the type of guy who reads the whole Bible, and it's been close to 20 years since I read most of the Bible, the past 10 years I've read only small portions really, and I mean it. I do well without reading everything, and I have a somewhat good memory, so I still remember what I read 20 years ago in other languages, so I have an overall grasp. What I need to do, is to go more in-depth.
    Scroll through the posts in this thread and notice for example: http://www.christianforums.com/t7644634-post60204932/#post60204932
    ... it contains my latest considerations. The friends I mentioned in the top of that post, think it's very good that I'm interested in in-depth information.

    But I'm a bit of a non-conformist, and I think it'll take some time for me before I'm accepted as a Catholic member. But I AM very interested indeed in the Roman Catholic Church and it's the closest equivalent anyway to what I believe.

    Read more generally about commentaries and study of Biblical languages (I'm thinking of buying the Original Languages base package), in another thread, if You have time to read about commentaries & discussions of electronic or printed matter -preferences: http://www.christianforums.com/t7541241-post60122804/#post60122804

    SUMMARY #1: I'm thinking of placing an order soon an first study by myself, then maybe Bible college. I want to be able to decide which Catholic electronic package of books to order to my Logos 4. I haven't made any definite decisions yet, but I'll have to decide within three weeks before the offers discontinue for me personally.
    SUMMARY #2: http://www.christianforums.com/t7641528-post60136687/

    SUPPLEMENT: free electronic e-books
    - Disadvantages: worse search possibilities, less reading-ergonomic, risk that Adobe Reader crashes
    - Example #1: Bibles and Commentaries « Catholic eBooks Project
    - Example #2: Theology « Catholic eBooks Project
    - Example #3: CATHOLIC BOOKWORM » Bible Commentaries, Studies, Related Issues


    As it's always good to put consideration into what to buy, relevant to the T I want to remind of another thread about books:
    http://www.christianforums.com/t7396662-post58361047/#post58361047

    And reminder of another good thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t7628329-post59784320/#post59784320
    ... please post there if You have any favourite cardinal?

    Previously edited by Unix; 29th March 2012 at 09:26 PM local time
    Previously edited by Unix; 30th March 2012 at 07:23 AM local time
    Previously edited by Unix; 31st March 2012 at 11:05 PM local time
    Previously edited by Unix; 1st April 2012 at 01:12 AM local time
    Previously edited by Unix; 1st April 2012 at 03:54 PM local time. Reason: Add about Septuagint Deuterocanon interlinear
    Previously edited by Unix; 2nd April 2012 at 11:00 AM local time.
    Previously edited by Unix; 7th April 2012 at 02:23 PM local time
    Previously edited by Unix; 8th April 2012 at 04:49 AM local time. Reason: Add poll link
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
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  2. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    Well, I was raised RC & found it seriously flawed from day one, so I LIKE what I know about Ray Brown. He is a reference used by Garry Wills in "Papal Sin - Structures of Deceit". It isn't that big of a book, but it will help/force you to deal with some hard issues that will probably deepen your faith in God at the end of the day.

    Don't just read to reinforce what you've uncriticaly decided what you like.
    Unless of course, that is exactly your intent. In that case, I wish you well, Unix.
     
  3. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    See this post I've written recently in GT: http://www.christianforums.com/t7644970/#post60149934

    There is not much of re-inforcement. EDIT 10:19 AM local time, April 1. 2012: Many of the authors in the Catholic Foundations library I have never heard about and would be interested in getting opinions about them here! I haven't decided what I like. Except that I'm sure I don't like Raymond E. Brown as an author. I find it hard to believe some of the Catolic Church's teachings (no - none of the "obvious" ones, those I believe).
    I'm not uncritical, but I need to find out more about the RCC. I can tell You in a PM why that's so important.
    Well what do You suggest I drop out?

    The big question is which titles to include instead?

    RC:ism is the Church closest to my beliefs. There is no Church that matches my beliefs, they are all remote. I'm a bit of a Christian Seeker. But like I explained in the OP I'm a real Christian, so I would not put the Seeker label on me. One thing is that I don't believe all the books of the Bible should be read. I think that the Calvinist or Reformed Church You believe in Rick Otto is fine, I would even prefer such a Bible college over other protestant Bible Colleges, but there is none over here, unfortunately that Church is not big around here, there is just one reformed Church in a small town in Sweden, not going to move there, (enjoy it here). EDIT 10:19 AM local time, April 1. 2012: If I go to a Protestant Bible College I can compensate that by only attending the RCC and not protestant Churches.

    If I would be a protestant, I would be Mennonite Brethren (that's Anabaptist). I found out about that on: Selectsmart.com - there's a few tests there. http://www.selectsmart.com/plus/select.php?url=beliefsystem was the one I used the most.

    Previously edited by Unix; 1st April 2012 at 09:31 AM local time.
    Previously edited by Unix; 1st April 2012 at 10:19 AM local time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  4. ebia

    ebia Senior Contributor

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    The point of package deals is that you get a package. Look at what there is in the package that you do want, or at least would quite like. Ignore the stuff you don't want - does the stuff you do want add up individually to more than the deal price? If not buy the least deal possible and the bits you want individually. The Catholic packages to me don't look stunning unless you happen to want exactly what they offer and have lots of money - or your faculty is paying for it.

    As far as translations go, the joy of electronic software is the power to compare - the more the better. "Catholic Editions" are a bit irrelevant - you get the Apocrapha which is the substantial difference. Make sure you have at least one translation that includes the reverse interlinear feature (eg NRSV).

    Really the big thing about logos is the power of the software for bibles, commentaries and so forth. Books you just read through aren't that much better in logos than kindle and cost more. Except you get proper page numbers for citations.
     
  5. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    The tricky sales-tactique they use is that there's not much of least deals, other than the Home-base-backage (that one is horrible, includes all kinds of unwanted items which it would be a REAL embarrasment to own, not worth the price at all, then I'd rader download the free Logos 4 software WITH NOTHING).
    Thanks for the opinion, it's good to get negative views. Well, is there any items You'd like to recommend? No, the faculty is certainly not paying, I have to pay a tuition fee + lunch fee + all the material myself. (Or well, mom is paying some of it, she's the fanatic type of Christian so she was glad I even consider. But regarding my mom I have some issues to resolve with her before monday morning before I apply, she should be admitting what she and my dad has done wrong towards things I own the past years.)
    We can take that discussion later on. I have so many Bibles allready, carefully selected ones, not electronic ones, that I really don't feel like buying into more. Besides, I know all English versions there are by heart (just some vital bits about most of them) so I have a pretty good overal grasp and am contented with what I've chosen (although I will of course never be settled, I'm constantly considering different versions for short passages or just one verse or even a word at a time).
    You may be right that too many such, in the Original Languages base-package, is not adding to the value. There are quite many in the Original Languages base-package. I have access to one reverse interlinear NT, the one my dad has, he can borrow it to me, it's printed matter.
    Do You mean it would be important to use/have a formal equivalent Bible? I usually don't use them.
    Yeah that's why it's sad that basically no good versions are included or even purchasable.
    The commentaries will be an expensive story, those I would have to buy one-by-one. But are You saying that the commentaries in the Catholic Foundations library or in the Catholic Library builder are good?
    What's Kindle? Kinder-eggs? No seriously I don't know. I'm totally lost. Anyhow, I have a slight tendency to be epileptic, hardly noticable but to be taken seriously, which I medicate successfully, not an issue really other than in the long run the meds might run down my liver - although it's very strong for now. (Continued on my profile.) The point about that personal information, is that switching between screens or windows can trigger it - and I'm running low medication dose.
    I didn't even think about that aspect, THANK YOU.
     
  6. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  7. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    This item might be something to have: Adolf von Harnack -collection
    What do You think of it? It's a small package, I would not get the discount. I'm somewhat unfamiliar with that author, I've only read quotes in Joseph Ratzinger's books.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  8. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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  9. ebia

    ebia Senior Contributor

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    Iirc, the free software doesn't give you full functionality. You need to buy a base package to get the full use of the software.


    The main features I use are
    NRSV with reverse interlinear
    Word Biblical Commentaries
    BST Commentaries
    Anchor Bible Dictionary.
    Revised Common Lectionary
    John Goldingay's Old Testament Theology series

    If I had some money to spend it would be on good lexicons.

    I haven't looked. I was commenting that a large part of what you are getting is the power of the software to move between biblical text, commentary, reverse interlinear, lexicon, dictionary, and so forth. If all you want is to read a book Logos isn't all that cheap, because that's not it's aim.


    Amazons ebook reader.
     
  10. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    OK I saw now that one is free online.
    Am aware of it but haven't thought of buying it.
    The Catholic Foundations Library includes the Catholic Lectionary, USCCB, 2009
    Revised Common Lectionary Daily Readings is included in the Original Languages base-package.
    Also...: Book of Common Prayer
    Catholic Lectionary
    Christian Worship One Year Lectionary
    Christian Worship Three Year Lectionary (with Supplemental Lectionary)
    Lutheran Service Book Historic (One Year) Lectionary
    Lutheran Service Book Three Year Lectionary
    United Methodist Revised Common Lectionary
    ...are included in the Original Languages base-package
    The Original Languages base-package contains the following Greek lexicons:
    Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains, 2nd ed., ed. J. P. Louw and E. A. Nida
    A Greek–English Lexicon of the Septuagint
    Intermediate Greek–English Lexicon, Liddell and Scott
    OK, You managed to give good points anyway.
    I think I'll add: Video Tutorials: Logos Bible Software 4 - Logos Bible Software and Good News Translation - Logos Bible Software and English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts - Logos Bible Software and Proverbs - Logos Bible Software and Hermeneia Upgrade (3 vols.)
    The total sum would then be (with discounts I'm negotiating):
    $499.95 -15% (Learn to use Biblical Greek and Hebrew)
    $415.95 -15% (Original Languages base-pack.)
    $249.95 -15% (Cath. pack.)
    $190 -20% (The Original Language of the Lukan Infancy Narrative) I ask for discount because it's a high price for one book
    $149.95 -20% (Hermeneia upgrade) I ask for discount because I don't read the Acts-volume
    $64.95 - final price guessed by me, projected price $50 (Adolf von Harnack Collection)
    $29.95 -25% (Apocrypha reverse interlinear NRSV) I ask for discount because it doesn't include 4 Esdras and because it's not -CE
    $24.99 (Proverbs)
    $10 -5% (1992 GNT) I ask for discount because it's not -CE
    $4.95 (Video Tutorials)
    =$1389.78
    =then I won't have money left other than for everyday expenses, flat rent, phone and such. The computer itself is for free as long as I work in the same job I have now.
    =start in the turn of the year 2012/2013 to save to moped-car.

    Previously edited by Unix; 2nd April 2012 at 10:51 AM local time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
  11. ebia

    ebia Senior Contributor

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    eh?
     
  12. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    The site was very slow, so I was unable to check whether the download actually functions and whether it's just a summary or the whole books. Today was last day to apply to Bible college, I applied. It was news to me that the programme that focuses only on the Bible and theology and such, is new for autumn 2012. It's 1 year. They've had Christian music-programme since 1866. I can play piano (learning again, have piano at home, haven't played since child) but of course I didn't apply to any music-programme. The faculty provides fast wireless internet, so after I've started I'll be able to check that site again, with "my" laptop. The internet I have myself, is slow.
    There is another thread that discusses Logos 4: Logos Bible Software - Catholic Answers Forums Somebody in that thread bought Catholic Foundations, and somebody bought Catholic Scholar's.

    My mom softened a bit this afternoon and might be paying some of the tuition fee, but she'll not pay for any of the software and e-books/study-tools or the mandatory lunch-fee.
     
  13. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    I'm excited about getting more Hermeneia-commentaries, the Bible college, and the Catholic Practicum.

    I talked yesterday with a friend of mine who is a flute-player, and his wife, about the commentaries I already have, the e-books I'm planning to buy, and the Bible college. He showed me e-sword, but I don't think that one is enough.

    I think I'm adding:
    $129.95 Catholic Practicum: Learn to Use Logos Bible Software - Logos Bible Software
    $209.95 Theology and Doctrine Collection (16 vols.) - Logos Bible Software
    ... the latter which would cost $230 just for the interesting items, including postage, as printed matter. There were items on the Resurrection, but I allready have a book on the Resurrection, by Pheme Perkins, Doubleday, 1984, so those items weren't of interest to me.

    The Original Languages -Base-package seems to be worth it, to me, I would buy many of the volumes included in it, anyway.

    The Catholic Foundations -package seems like good value, and it's the minimum package for Catholic Practicum. I'm excited about the Catholic Foundations -package as well.
    My dad admitted in the beginning of the week (just after I applied to the Bible college) and was sorry.
    cybrwurm has written an opinion: http://www.christianforums.com/t7541241-post60163916/#poststop

    It looks like I'll have to split up the order in two parts: buy some of the items now, and some later on, because I don't have sufficient money considering the latest items I've added. OR I'll have to restructure my order. Perhaps drop Good News Translation, Video Tutorials, Adolf von Harnack Collection and the Original Language of the Lukan infancy narrative, from the order? My friend, (whom I mentioned in the beginning of this p that I talked to yesterday), had an opinion about that latter item, he said that if the difference between Lk 1-2 to the rest of Lk was just the language, then that was not enough reason to drop the chapters.
     
  14. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    I base much of what I spend time with, on Ep, such as as the argument for serious studies of Christianity and the Bible.
    On the other hand, it's just the type of critical item I want. It is cited by 4 books. It would be nice to have it electronically, then I could access the Gk better. It's not THAT much cheaper printed anyway.
    IF YOU STILL WANT TO VOTE (ANONYMOUSLY) ON THE POLL, GO TO: http://www.christianforums.com/t7647231/

    Here's a very recent thread relevant to Lk 1-2 with good considerations:
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=663270

    Previously edited by Unix; 8th April 2012 at 04:52 AM local time. Reason: Add poll link
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  15. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    I didn't get a discount on individual items, just on the base package. So I'm cancelling the 1992 GNT and the Learn to use Biblical Greek and Hebrew.
    But I got 20% discount on the base package, instead of 15%
     
  16. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    There's still time to give opinions, another week! I've kept the Original Language of the Lukan Infancy Narrative in the order, but skipped 1992 GNT and Learn to use Greek and Hebrew with Logos software.
     
  17. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    I'm still undecided whether to buy anything, I came to think of a problem:
    If I want to quote something on Christianforums from the e-books, I would for the convenience need an internet connection on the computer where the software/e-books is/are installed, well I wont have an internet connection forever. I will have the computer in use for a longer time OR be able to buy a cheaper desktop computer later on as replacement and install on it.

    Now as I'm writing this post I came to think of a sollution: to transfer the quotes with a USB harddrivedisk. That doesn't make it possible to reply with quotes instantly though.

    Unfortunately for ~a week now no further persons have been helpful with opinions!

    What should I do?

    There are 2 new opinions generally about Bible study software, in:
    Online Bible Study Software? - Page 2 - Catholic Answers Forums

    I'm leaning towards buying what I've most recently written that I plan to perhaps buy.

    I've written recently about my beliefs:
    http://www.christianforums.com/t7625875-post60244553/#post60244553
    My favourite Gospel is Jn. I allready have a printed matter commentary on it, and am continuing reading it right now.

    Another thread which discusses Logos Catholic content
    http://community.logos.com/forums/t/9288.aspx?PageIndex=1
    ... I haven't read it through yet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  18. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    Last edited: Apr 19, 2012
  19. Unix

    Unix Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar Supporter

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    Regarding Bible College, see my post: http://www.christianforums.com/t7663680-post60807765/#post60807765
    As You can see from my custom-title, something unexpected happened when I applied to a Bible college, (not the one in that post): I was over-qualified.
    I'm content with my purchase. The software has a great visual design, and it gets You studying. There's not that many different Bibles, but I don't want to support bad Bible versions, so I'm glad I chose a base-package that doesn't have a lot of unwanted Bibles.

    I've heard on Logos user -forums (where You can register without having to pay or download anything at first, but be careful to use an email address that You'll be able to use for many years ahead), that REB is going to be issued to Logos. But I start wondering if it's going to be issued to the current version, 4, or to the next, 5. Just wondering why it's taking so much time. The 1865 Common English Version New testament, is also going to be released to Logos 4, it's great as a version that has a language close to the contemporary language and You want the Tradition: full verses from the Textus Receptus, in English. Because for some verses in the NT the more text-critical Bible versions omit words that should be read. CENT is included in: English Bible Collection (27 vols.) - Logos Bible Software

    Regarding the content I paid for, it covers a huge part of my needs. I'm especially glad about the Gk and Hebrew tools, Early Church Fathers, and the commentaries I paid for separately.

    I've written a post about a newer translation of a few ECFs, click Your way through to the Logos page to examine the price to buy it separately and in which base-packages the item is included: http://www.christianforums.com/t6932525-post60781491/#post60781491

    The Logos software is a joy as it enables You to search Your entire library with one command, for for example the occurences of a Bible passage or an expression. It's really engaging to be able to have answers from several angles to Your search request. It's a better way of discovering the Early Church fathers, commentaries, Bible dictionaries, textual and translation problems of the Bible, than simply reading books from cover to cover.

    Personally, I wouldn't need as many Bible dictionaries as are included, they duplicate information. But they are probably included because many beginners expect to have them.

    I've been using Logos on a laptop and I always take it with me to Church. It's a really great aid, and I want to take notes from the sermon.

    Disclaimer: the Catholic Foundations package doesn't contain all of the writings of saints.

    The Navarre Bible -set, came out, in 2 versions, a newer and an older. There's difference regarding content, between the two. Not that I would be interested, but perhaps other's are.

    Btw: look at this item: The Epiphany of Love: Toward a Theological Understanding of Christian Action - Logos Bible Software
    ... interesting?

    OPTION FOR OTHERS: I suggest as an option, the Catholic Foundations base-package for $250, and http://www.logos.com/product/15784/essential-reference-bundle for $570 and GNT for $10. WITHOUT any of the base-packages at the Logos.com storefront. So far, I haven't found differences between the -CE and non-ce -versions of GNT. This option is those are not interested in Bible Greek nor Hebrew or Aramaic.

    Printed books that I find essential as complement, are: The Language and Imagery of the Bible, © G.B. Caird 1980 (look for it on abebooks or Amazon), the REB Apocrypha (on Amazon), Concise Dictionary of Christian Ethics, ed. Bernhard Stoeckle.
    Also pretty good, are either 1975 Bible In Order, or CTS New Catholic Bible, but those cost some.

    Previously edited by Unix; 23rd June 2012 at 04:30 PM local time. Reason: add option for others
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  20. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    US-Others
    Not necessarily. Depends on your motive.

    I'm not a KJV only-ist but I find it's upside outweighs it's downside.
    That and an NIV I read 7 times cover-to-cover.

    You might not be entirely comfortable as a RC then, because although they can be entirely gracious about it, they don't accomodate other's doctrines as a rule.

    Friend, I am not a huge advocate of religious church attendance. I had to go online to find out about Reform Theology in 2000. I was raised RC. I was even an "alter boy", but I never believed it from first grade catechism to senior year in parochial High School.
    I think your spinning your wheels if you're tryin' to make a deal with God by balancing your time. You may be over-thinking what the Holy Spirit could effect if you weren't so focused on credentials.
    Wisdom is the real credential.


    They are missions oriented & simple doctrinaly. I like 'em. Gotta go for now.
     
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