Living Together

[Gwendolyn]

Hi everyone,

Two questions for you, both related to non-married coubles who decide to live together.

Question one:
My question is twofold. I am 22, and I have an 18-year-old brother. He doesn't understand why it is inappropriate for a non-married couple to live together. His misunderstanding appeals to the common secular logic - "If you're going to be married, you need to know that you can live with that person, right? Just so you don't get married and find out you can't stand to live together."

I don't really know how to answer him. I'm not equipped with logical, well-thought-out answers. I understand that it is inappropriate, and would never seek to live with a man prior to marriage; but would any of you be able to explain to me why, both according to the faith and maybe in some ways a secular person could try to understand?

Question Two:
I've been listening to the Catholic Channel on Sirius satellite radio. Today, on the segment called Catholic Guy, the host was discussing with a priest (Fr. Jim) the issues associated with pre-marital counselling. He asked him what it's like to encounter couples who live together and refuse to move out. He said in that instance, he gives them two options: move out completely, or, if that is too financially difficult given the situation, live as brother and sister.

We do the "ask your priest" thing a lot in here. I've heard from other priests that living together before marriage is unacceptable in all cases, even if you live as brother and sister. But this priest and the other co-hosts were agreeing with each other and saying that if worse comes to worse, you can agree to live as brother and sister, with separate sleeping quarters.

Is this like anything you have heard? It's the first time I've encountered a priest who would permit it.

Thanks for all your help. It will put me at ease.

 

[wiggbuggie]

i kinda agree with your brother also adding that the couple sleeps in different rooms and doesnt have sex. You can also find out a lot about a person by their living habits and such, unless you can find me some teachings from the bible that doesnt allow this

 

[zhilan]

I think that's silly. You don't need to live with someone to know what they are like. That would only apply if you want to get married to someone like....a few months after meeting them. But if you get to know someone as a close friend first then you will know them.

What is it that you need to so urgently know about someone by living with them that you can't know by simply getting to know the person. For example, I love my two best friends (female) to death, but I know (you know, because they are my best friends and thus I have gotten to know them) that I could never, ever live with them. They are both wonderful, but they would drive me insane if they were my roommates. If I can discern this without living with them, I don't understand why the same wouldn't apply with a future-spouse.

I think we have been spoiled by being allowed to sample ice-cream flavors to our hearts content before choosing a flavor.

 

[Rhamiel]

Living together increases the opportunity to sin, invites the idea of “well we are going to get married and we are already living together might as well start having sex” not exactly in those words because that is a really dorky train of thought but you get the drift. Also it causes the chance for scandal, the neighbors going “just look at those Catholics shacking up” again not quite in those words but you know what I mean.
Too many people do not care about there reputation any more, but we just don’t represent ourselves we represent Christ in this world.

 

[epiclesis]

IMO, if you don't know a person well enough that you don't know if you can live with them or not, then you don't know them well enough to marry them anyway.

hopefully a relationship transitioning into an engagement is not just an hour once a week dating, but spending time together.
talking about living together just to see if you can stand living with them would be the same as comparing that you should have sex before you get married... because 'you want to see how good they are before you marry them.'

it's one of those... let's see how far we can stand on the edge of a cliff before possibly falling off.

a couple living in the same place as brother and sister is not necessarily bad, but it would be the same [dis]agreement as the discussion about a platonic relationship of the opposite gender living in the same house.
it could cause scandal. it could be an occasion of sin. but it could also cause judgment from people assuming you're doing bad things even if you're not.

i think it works for some people, it doesn't for others. some people would be comfortable with it, some people would not.

i, for one, would not do it. i would not feel comfortable with it. but i'm sure it's an only option for some people and it works for them without having to jeopardize their faith.

just my few cents...

 

[BAFRIEND]

Living together as a couple outside of marriage is scandal against the sacrament of marriage.

Fr Jim is wrong to tell couples to live together as brother and sister as it still creates scandal as it weakens the view of the sacrament.

As a person who was in this kind of relationship, I will say that you cannot practice commitment.

Why would someone want to live in such a relationship outside of marriage ? In retrospect, I would have to addmit I was slapping God in the face. If we had had children, it would have had negative impacts on their lives to have been born outside of the marriage commitment or sacrament. Basically, I would be telling the kids I did not love their mom enough to have married her.

 

[PureLove]

I respect and will follow this but admit I've never really understood it either, literally yes but at the same time I can live in a house with a person and not have sex with them. It's not the most difficult thing and I see the point too of knowing each other but people also find out how diff they are after 10 years or 20 so maybe its doesnt help lol
I'm just glad Im not ever getting married, the complications are enough to keep one chaste

love
Livey

 

[BAFRIEND]

If you don't know if you love a person enough to get married or not, then you should not live together either, even to discover another's living habits.

Funny. If you look at the statistics, couples that lived together before getting married, have a higher divorce rate than those that did not. In my case, marriage was an issue brought up to save the relationship after it had gone sour.

 

[helenofbritain]

... yes but at the same time I can live in a house with a person and not have sex with them. It's not the most difficult thing...

Two people who are mates who are sharing a house will not have the same difficulties in NOT having sex as two people who are in love with each other and who are planning on getting married.

If you love someone so much that you're going to marry them, chances are you'll be sexually attracted to them. You just won't feel the same way about your best friend from primary school.

Wait a few years and you'll probably see what I mean...

 

[PureLove]

I know what you are saying but a person can control themselves with discipline, it shouldn't be THAT difficult like 40 days in a desert or something.

love

 

[helenofbritain]

PureLove... I hate to pull rank... and I hate it when people say this...

But

Wait until you are older and in love. It's not as easy as you'd think. But who said it was meant to be easy? Our triumphs are greater when we overcome great trials.

 

[PureLove]

hehe feel free to pull rank with me any time Helen
I still think Im right though b/c I always do lol but as u pointed out I can't really say so now
FINE
In ten years I'll post back and tell you how easy it all is and not even a challenge to me, easy as pie, piece of cake and all that
my real point is I dont think sexuality is that tempting, that big a deal...we have just made it that big, and media even the Church has made it that way with the taboo. I think this applies to so many sins and temptations in that we make to big a deal avoiding them, get superstitious and make a monster of it. Desire is just that, desire that one can choose to just watch them not live in them. It's just a thought after all, like I feel absolutely horrible right now and I wont go into it but its still just a thought, feelings, illnesses, not me.
My body wants to run, escape pain and run to a pleasure but thats just natural and need not be acted on
the only thing Im giving into is wanting to chatter here
I hope this doesnt come across as a debate, its not..I aint got the time, time for those things, just love talking and people
the side of me u are seeing is just the smiling motormouth that my dad calls the PRINCESS BRAT lol
love ya all

 

[MikeK]

Is this like anything you have heard? It's the first time I've encountered a priest who would permit it.

Our Priest told us in premarital couceling that we didn't have to stop having sex or living together. I think he followed that up with a reference to "the greatest of these is love" and said something like "you're obviously in love or you wouldn't be here today, so I'm certainly not going to tell you that you shouldn't be having sex or living together". I know that what he said directly contradicts Church teaching, but I don't think it's rare for a Priest to speak like this - especially in one on one situations.

Edited to add: for the last year of our engagement, we did live together and sleep in the same bed w/o sexual contact - I can't remember though if that was our Priest's idea or our own though...

 

[epiclesis]

I respect and will follow this but admit I've never really understood it either, literally yes but at the same time I can live in a house with a person and not have sex with them. It's not the most difficult thing and I see the point too of knowing each other but people also find out how diff they are after 10 years or 20 so maybe its doesnt help lol
I'm just glad Im not ever getting married, the complications are enough to keep one chaste

love
Livey

As a side note, when I was your age, I couldn't understand romance and physical contact. I did not see how it would go hand in hand with a relationship and a marriage. I thought I'd just get older and get married and become this anti-touchy feely person- married to someone the same way, because it just didn't seem 'sweet' to me.

Now that I am older, I understand it, and I do not have the mindset that I did several years ago about it.

While it's not impossible to live in a house with a romantic relationship and live as brother and sister, I'm sure it's very very difficult.

Like HoB said, if you're in love with them, then it's pretty given that you're going to be sexually attracted to them as well.

 

[helenofbritain]

FINE
In ten years I'll post back and tell you how easy it all is and not even a challenge to me, easy as pie, piece of cake and all that

You do that

 

[Fantine]

I think that 18 is awfully young to think about living with someone or getting married. Yikes!

On the coasts, I think high housing and rental prices drive young people to either stay at home indefinitely or adopt unconventional living arrangements. I'm not making excuses for it, just citing it as a factor.

You can tell your brother that one sign of maturity is being able to defer gratification, and that maturity is necessary for a successful marriage.

 

[Filia Mariae]

Hi everyone,

Two questions for you, both related to non-married coubles who decide to live together.

Question one:
My question is twofold. I am 22, and I have an 18-year-old brother. He doesn't understand why it is inappropriate for a non-married couple to live together. His misunderstanding appeals to the common secular logic - "If you're going to be married, you need to know that you can live with that person, right? Just so you don't get married and find out you can't stand to live together."

I don't really know how to answer him. I'm not equipped with logical, well-thought-out answers. I understand that it is inappropriate, and would never seek to live with a man prior to marriage; but would any of you be able to explain to me why, both according to the faith and maybe in some ways a secular person could try to understand?

This is a popular theory, but it just doesn't play out. People who cohabitate have higher divorce rates than people who don't. And most people don't divorce because they got married and found out their spouse leaves towels on the floor. They divorce because someone is unfaithful, or day to day life is tedious and requires great self-sacrifice, or because they are financially stressed, or whatever. Few people cite: "he leaves the cap off the toothpaste" as a reason for divorce.

Question Two:

I've been listening to the Catholic Channel on Sirius satellite radio. Today, on the segment called Catholic Guy, the host was discussing with a priest (Fr. Jim) the issues associated with pre-marital counselling. He asked him what it's like to encounter couples who live together and refuse to move out. He said in that instance, he gives them two options: move out completely, or, if that is too financially difficult given the situation, live as brother and sister.

We do the "ask your priest" thing a lot in here. I've heard from other priests that living together before marriage is unacceptable in all cases, even if you live as brother and sister. But this priest and the other co-hosts were agreeing with each other and saying that if worse comes to worse, you can agree to live as brother and sister, with separate sleeping quarters.

Is this like anything you have heard? It's the first time I've encountered a priest who would permit it.

Thanks for all your help. It will put me at ease.

Moving in with your SO isn't acceptable, even if you're not having sex- it is the near occasion of sin, cause for scandal, etc etc.

However, if two people are engaged and already cohabitating, it sometimes isn't realistically possible for someone to move out before the wedding. If that's the case, the best that can be done is to live as brother and sister.

 

[Globalnomad]

FiliaMariae and others; the statistic about people who lived together having a higher divorce rate is MEANINGLESS. It's a textbook example of a "statistical hoax". It does not prove that living together CAUSES you to be more likely to divorce. It only means that if you are the type of person who accepts divorce more easily, you are also the type of person who accepts to live together before marriage, and vice versa.

Purelove: at fifteen, most normal girls DO NOT YET experience fully-fledged sexual desire. Only the confused, not-yet-very-strong beginnings of it. Watch out over the next few years.

VeP - I have tried both, living together before marriage AND having sex before marriage. Of the two, I would say that sex is far more useful. No, not to check out how good he is - but much more important, to get the sexual tension out of the way and see if you are still happy in each other's company and are comfortable together. Of course, it goes against Christian morality, so I'll leave it to someone else to give us a good counterargument.

As for living together, frankly, it's meaningless IMO. As zhilan and others have said, learning each other's toothbrushing habits has zilch importance in helping you to decide whether you can stand each other's company forever. Spend a dozen weekends and evenings together, on picnics, in each other's kitchen cooking a meal, nursing each other through a flu, helping the other clean his attic and all the other cosy things that engaged people do: you get all the knowledge you want from there. You even learn if the other snores, if you ever spend a lazy rainy Sunday afternoon together.

 

[Filia Mariae]

FiliaMariae and others; the statistic about people who lived together having a higher divorce rate is MEANINGLESS. It's a textbook example of a "statistical hoax". It does not prove that living together CAUSES you to be more likely to divorce.

Wait a minute, where did I say that cohabitation causes divorce??? Oh that's right, I didn't.

I was responding only to the theory that cohabitation is a good way to avoid a future divorce. It's not.

It only means that if you are the type of person who accepts divorce more easily, you are also the type of person who accepts to live together before marriage, and vice versa.

While I agree that what you've said above plays a significant role in higher divorce rates among those who cohabitate, I would not say it means "only" that. And I don't see any support for that claim here.

 

[BillH]

FiliaMariae and others; the statistic about people who lived together having a higher divorce rate is MEANINGLESS. It's a textbook example of a "statistical hoax". It does not prove that living together CAUSES you to be more likely to divorce. It only means that if you are the type of person who accepts divorce more easily, you are also the type of person who accepts to live together before marriage, and vice versa.

Well, it doesn't prove causation, but that doesn't mean it's meaningless. It does rule out the possibility that cohabitation decreases the divorce rate in any meaningful degree. Since there's still a lot of people who seem to believe that it does, that's good to know.