"Living and reigning with Christ" - BEFORE Christ was born

[3 Resurrections]

This post is in response to DavidPT on another thread, where we were discussing the time limits of the millennium. My contention was that the literal, 1,000-year millennium is undoubtedly presented as a PAST fulfillment by the time Revelation was being written, and that it had ENDED in AD 33 with the "First resurrection" of Christ the "First-fruits" and the 144,000 remnant of the "First-fruits" that He raised from the dead in Matthew 27:52-53.

DavidPT's question was with regard to just how anyone in Revelation 20:4 could have "lived and reigned WITH Christ" in a millennium period which began before Christ was even born.
We use this writing technique all the time in speaking about someone by a term that is not necessarily true of them at the moment we are speaking, and scripture does the same thing here in Rev. 20:4. One example is in Acts 4:27 and following. "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel were gathered together...And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that will all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus."

We know for certain that Jesus at that point in time was not a young child, but a full grown adult male in glorified, resurrected form in heaven. Yet the language is not contradictory, since we know exactly of whom the disciples were speaking - the man Christ Jesus who had once been a young child growing up in Nazareth.

Another example is when scripture says that it was the "Son" of God who "made the worlds" (Hebrews 1:2). Yet we know that the second person of the Trinity who became flesh as the incarnate Son of God in Mary's womb was not yet in that incarnate form as God's "Son" before creation in Genesis. Yet there is no contradiction, because we know that this term, "the Son" was speaking of the "Word" which later became incarnate flesh, and dwelt among us.

A typical example for us would be for a man to say "My wife went to kindergarten at such and such a school". We know that the little 5-year old girl was not this man's wife at the time she went to that school. The same man could say "My wife is buried in such and such a cemetery." Yet we know that the living wife of this man is not buried alive in that cemetery. Only that the woman who used to be known as his living wife is now dead and buried there.

So, back to the question of how saints could "live and reign with Christ" from 968/967 BC until AD 33 when the millennium ended. The important thing to remember is that there is no time limitation put upon the reign of the second person of the Trinity. That "reign" has always been "from everlasting" and "to everlasting". "Thy throne is established of old; thou are from everlasting."

The thousand-year time limitation for the millennium was put upon SATAN, whose deception was chained for those literal thousand years. Anyone who is a saint "reigns in life by one, Jesus Christ" in a very real sense of the word, as found in Romans 5:17. Those faithful children of God who looked forward in time to Christ's day (like Abel and Abraham) were just as much "reigning in life with Christ", who was later going to come, as those who looked backward in time to Christ's days on earth. They, too, were "reigning in life with Christ", as believers also do today.

Christ's (aka the "Word's") continual reign has been manifested in different ways over history, and during the Rev. 20 millennium years, it was characterized by Satan's deception of the nations being bound during that time. Any saint who was living their natural lifetime on earth at some point during that millennium period (from 968/967 BC until AD 33) shared in the benefits of a period of history when Satan's deception had been shut down for that time. It was better than the previous "times of this ignorance" when God had suffered all nations to walk in their own ways before then.

The interpreted millennium conditions for this world have been artificially inflated as being euphoric, pristine, and sinless. Which is not how scripture described that millennium time period at all. Even with Satan's deception shut down from 968/967 BC until AD 33, that did not eliminate mankind's own ability to deceive itself and others. And just like Adam who was NOT deceived, simply knowing to do good and doing it not was still sin. Sin can still be deliberately committed, even without any deception being involved. The millennium was not a period of a sin-free world.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This post is in response to DavidPT on another thread, where we were discussing the time limits of the millennium. My contention was that the literal, 1,000-year millennium is undoubtedly presented as a PAST fulfillment by the time Revelation was being written, and that it had ENDED in AD 33 with the "First resurrection" of Christ the "First-fruits" and the 144,000 remnant of the "First-fruits" that He raised from the dead in Matthew 27:52-53.

DavidPT's question was with regard to just how anyone in Revelation 20:4 could have "lived and reigned WITH Christ" in a millennium period which began before Christ was even born.
We use this writing technique all the time in speaking about someone by a term that is not necessarily true of them at the moment we are speaking, and scripture does the same thing here in Rev. 20:4. One example is in Acts 4:27 and following. "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel were gathered together...And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that will all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus."

We know for certain that Jesus at that point in time was not a young child, but a full grown adult male in glorified, resurrected form in heaven. Yet the language is not contradictory, since we know exactly of whom the disciples were speaking - the man Christ Jesus who had once been a young child growing up in Nazareth.

Another example is when scripture says that it was the "Son" of God who "made the worlds" (Hebrews 1:2). Yet we know that the second person of the Trinity who became flesh as the incarnate Son of God in Mary's womb was not yet in that incarnate form as God's "Son" before creation in Genesis. Yet there is no contradiction, because we know that this term, "the Son" was speaking of the "Word" which later became incarnate flesh, and dwelt among us.

A typical example for us would be for a man to say "My wife went to kindergarten at such and such a school". We know that the little 5-year old girl was not this man's wife at the time she went to that school. The same man could say "My wife is buried in such and such a cemetery." Yet we know that the living wife of this man is not buried alive in that cemetery. Only that the woman who used to be known as his living wife is now dead and buried there.

So, back to the question of how saints could "live and reign with Christ" from 986/987 BC until AD 33 when the millennium ended. The important thing to remember is that there is no time limitation put upon the reign of the second person of the Trinity. That "reign" has always been "from everlasting" and "to everlasting". "Thy throne is established of old; thou are from everlasting."

The thousand-year time limitation for the millennium was put upon SATAN, whose deception was chained for those literal thousand years. Anyone who is a saint "reigns in life by one, Jesus Christ" in a very real sense of the word, as found in Romans 5:17. Those faithful children of God who looked forward in time to Christ's day (like Abel and Abraham) were just as much "reigning in life with Christ", who was later going to come, as those who looked backward in time to Christ's days on earth. They, too, were "reigning in life with Christ", as believers also do today.

Christ's (aka the "Word's") continual reign has been manifested in different ways over history, and during the Rev. 20 millennium years, it was characterized by Satan's deception of the nations being bound during that time. Any saint who was living their natural lifetime on earth at some point during that millennium period (from 987/986 BC until AD 33) shared in the benefits of a period of history when Satan's deception had been shut down for that time. It was better than the previous "times of this ignorance" when God had suffered all nations to walk in their own ways before then.

The interpreted millennium conditions for this world have been artificially inflated as being euphoric, pristine, and sinless. Which is not how scripture described that millennium time period at all. Even with Satan's deception shut down from 987/986 BC until AD 33, that did not eliminate mankind's own ability to deceive itself and others. And just like Adam who was NOT deceived, simply knowing to do good and doing it not was still sin. Sin can still be deliberately committed, even without any deception being involved. The millennium was not a period of a sin-free world.

You are way off here! You really need to read the passage again. This is the main issue with extreme Preterism. They are so fixated with AD70 and Titus that they force the whole of Scripture into their theory. Notwithstanding, extreme Preterism is built upon sand. The first resurrection instigates the millennium. Believers reign with Christ for that symbolic. After Satan's little season at the end, we have the coming of Christ and the general resurrection. Christ's earthly ministry bound Satan to allow the spread of the Gospel to the nations. The lifting of the deception on the nations is the focus, and the enlightenment of then Gentiles. What happened 1000 years before Jesus that bound Satan and took the Gospel out to the Gentiles? Nothing!

 

[3 Resurrections]

The first resurrection instigates the millennium.

Not so. The "First resurrection" takes place when the millennium years are "finished" in Rev. 20:5.

If anything, I am "fixated" on the "First resurrection" of Christ. His crucifixion and resurrection are the hub of the wheel around which all prophecy is centered. "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev. 19:10).

 

[3 Resurrections]

What happened 1000 years before Jesus that bound Satan and took the Gospel out to the Gentiles? Nothing!

Nothing? I would hardly count the ministry of the prophets to be "nothing". The main surge of prophetic ministry rose up during these 968/967 BC years until AD 33, when Christ and the disciples were actively "spoiling his goods" by casting out unclean spirits of Satan's realm which was still in a position of being bound at that time.

Have you never read Darius and Nebuchadnezzar's decrees which were sent into every part of the empire? Both of these kings lauded the power of the God of heaven, and credited Israel's God for their ability to reign. Daniel's effect on both of these monarchs was due to the dispersion of the nation of Israel into the nations at large, at God intended.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Not so. The "First resurrection" takes place when the millennium years are "finished" in Rev. 20:5.

If anything, I am "fixated" on the "First resurrection" of Christ. His crucifixion and resurrection are the hub of the wheel around which all prophecy is centered. "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev. 19:10).

No, you are not! I have read your posts and that of other extreme Preterists. You are preoccupied with AD70 and Titus. Amillennialism is focused on Christ and the change He brought to a dark world 2000 years ago. You place that change with someone else and something else. You detract from the First Advent. I (thankfully) only hear this teaching here on this board. Nowhere else! It diminishes the position and victory of Christ. It doesn't make sense and is highly unbiblical. Christ's reign at the right hand of majesty only started 2000 years ago, not 3000 years. You have nothing to prove your error. How was Satan bound and in the abyss when Jesus arrived when demons were still fearing it and outside of it during our Lord's ministry?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Nothing? I would hardly count the ministry of the prophets to be "nothing". The main surge of prophetic ministry rose up during these 987/986 BC years until AD 33, when Christ and the disciples were actively "spoiling his goods" by casting out unclean spirits of Satan's realm which was still in a position of being bound at that time.

Have you never read Darius and Nebuchadnezzar's decrees which were sent into every part of the empire? Both of these kings lauded the power of the God of heaven, and credited Israel's God for their ability to reign. Daniel's effect on both of these monarchs was due to the dispersion of the nation of Israel into the nations at large, at God intended.

Are you serious? The law and the prophets have been from long before that. Address the issues instead of ducking around them. This is nonsensical. You are dethroning Christ from His rightful position and undermining His earthly ministry.

 

[3 Resurrections]

How was Satan bound and in the abyss when Jesus arrived when demons were still fearing it and outside of it during our Lord's ministry?

Your error is in presuming that the "abyss" (abysson) is a PLACE, and not a CONDITION. Christ while in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights was said to be in the "abyss" (abysson) in Romans 10:7. Meaning His physical body was in a non-functioning CONDITION while dead, while His spirit was in Paradise.

The unclean spirits did not want to be put in that condition, and so begged Jesus not to punish them in this way.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your error is in presuming that the "abyss" (abysson) is a PLACE, and not a CONDITION. Christ while in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights was said to be in the "abyss" (abysson) in Romans 10:7. Meaning His physical body was in a non-functioning CONDITION while dead, while His spirit was in Paradise.

The unclean spirits did not want to be put in that condition, and so begged Jesus not to punish them in this way.

Before you try rebuking me, find out what Amillennialists actually believe first. Amillennialists believe that the "abyss" (abysson) is a CONDITION not a PLACE.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Are you serious? The law and the prophets have been from long before that

You aren't reading my comment carefully enough. I said that the "main SURGE" of prophetic ministry took place during those millennium years between 968/967 BC until AD 33. The major and minor prophets in our scriptures are evidence of that. And of course there were prophets operating before Solomon's days. That's not the point.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your error is in presuming that the "abyss" (abysson) is a PLACE, and not a CONDITION. Christ while in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights was said to be in the "abyss" (abysson) in Romans 10:7. Meaning His physical body was in a non-functioning CONDITION while dead, while His spirit was in Paradise.

The unclean spirits did not want to be put in that condition, and so begged Jesus not to punish them in this way.

Please read the texts we are discussions before posting, because they forbid your position.

Matthew 8:28-32 adds a bit more detail to the picture, saying, “And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.”

Luke 8:27-33 says: “And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs. When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.) And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him. And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep (abyssos). And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them. Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked."

The devils knew that their time to be cast into the restraint of the abyss had not yet arrived. It was still future. However, they were aware that there was an approaching time that would see their spiritual imprisonment. From other Scripture we know that was the cross. Instead of being cast into the abyss they were cast into the swine.

The reason "they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the abyss" is because they thought Christ had come "to torment" them "before the time?” Obviously that time had not arrived. This nails the lie that devils were already in the abyss before the cross.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Amillennialists believe that the "abyss" (abysson) is a CONDITION not a PLACE.

Great! We agree on that then. I can't always remember who is coming from which position when posting on multiple fronts.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You aren't reading my comment carefully enough. I said that the "main SURGE" of prophetic ministry took place during those millennium years between 9897/9086 BC until AD 33. The major and minor prophets in our scriptures are evidence of that. And of course there were prophets operating before Solomon's days. That's not the point.

You are totally winging it here in my opinion. What prophets were actually prophesying in 9897/9086 BC?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Great! We agree on that then. I can't always remember who is coming from which position when posting on multiple fronts.

You should before you throw false accusations.

 

[3 Resurrections]

However, they were aware that there was an approaching time that would see their spiritual imprisonment. From other Scripture we know that was the cross.

Errr, not really. From other scripture we know that every unclean spirit was going to be imprisoned in Babylon the great city / Jerusalem until they were to be gone from there. (Revelation 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-23. God said in Zechariah 13:2 that He was going to make those unclean spirits to "pass out of the land", which was the land of Israel location, where they had been imprisoned in the city of Jerusalem before its destruction.

This nails the lie that devils were already in the abyss before the cross.

The original post is speaking of Satan's deception being bound - a condition in which he was not allowed to deceive the nations during that time period from 968/967 BC until AD 33. This has no bearing whatever on people being able to deceive themselves and others during that time. We as sinners are perfectly capable of doing this, regardless of whether any Satanic or demonic influence is around.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You are totally winging it here in my opinion. What prophets were actually prophesying in 9897/9086 BC

Sorry, that was a quick typo. Thanks for noting. I'll fix it. I'm rushing with about 4 work orders on my table that were just dumped off, demanding my attention.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Christ's reign at the right hand of majesty only started 2000 years ago, not 3000 years.

I never said Christ began to reign 3,000 years ago. God as a Triune being has ALWAYS reigned and will always reign over His created world and those in it. That is an unchanging reign. That reign has been manifested in various ways and different phases throughout history. When Satan was bound for those literal thousand years between 968/967 BC until AD 33, that was the Revelation 20 millennial phase of the ongoing kingdom reign.

When the Word became flesh as Christ Jesus the Messiah, His resurrection and ascension in AD 33 established a new phase of that reign by His becoming our High Priest in Heaven; a "change in the law" with the New Covenant in His blood. This High Priesthood role was the "kingdom" and "dominion" and "glory" given to Him on the morning after His resurrection when He first ascended and was "brought near before the Ancient of Days" in Daniel 7:14.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I never said Christ began to reign 3,000 years ago. God as a Triune being has ALWAYS reigned and will always reign over His created world and those in it. That is an unchanging reign. That reign has been manifested in various ways and different phases throughout history. When Satan was bound for those literal thousand years between 987/986 BC until AD 33, that was the Revelation 20 millennial phase of the ongoing kingdom reign.

When the Word became flesh as Christ Jesus the Messiah, His resurrection and ascension in AD 33 established a new phase of that reign by His becoming our High Priest in Heaven; a "change in the law" with the New Covenant in His blood. This High Priesthood role was the "kingdom" and "dominion" and "glory" given to Him on the morning after His resurrection when He first ascended and was "brought near before the Ancient of Days" in Daniel 7:14.

On what grounds were the redeemed reigning with Christ before sin, death, Satan and Hades were defeated?

 

[DavidPT]

The devils knew that their time to be cast into the restraint of the abyss had not yet arrived. It was still future. However, they were aware that there was an approaching time that would see their spiritual imprisonment. From other Scripture we know that was the cross. Instead of being cast into the abyss they were cast into the swine.

The reason "they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the abyss" is because they thought Christ had come "to torment" them "before the time?” Obviously that time had not arrived. This nails the lie that devils were already in the abyss before the cross.

Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

I wonder what period of time this is involving? A period of time prior to the cross, or a period of time post the cross? IOW, what exactly is different about some of these things before the cross as opposed to after the cross?

 

[3 Resurrections]

On what grounds were the redeemed reigning with Christ before sin, death, Satan and Hades were defeated?

Are you asking about the time before the crucifixion and Christ's resurrection?

 

[jeffweedaman]

On what grounds were the redeemed reigning with Christ before sin, death, Satan and Hades were defeated?

Good question. Its hard to see how the redeemed could be reigning with him before the shedding of his blood.