MarkRohfrietsch

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I love those vestments though... @MarkRohfrietsch you must be excited to get to wear that beautiful tunicle. You think you might use it on Reformation Sunday, or perhaps wait until Christmas and Epiphany?
Time will tell. We have members who are rabidly opposed to all things high Church, and are very vocal. The is a group of us who lean towards high Church practice, about the same size, but we are quieter. The majority are flexible. My wife and I donated these to be used for a festival of thanks-giving for the end of Covid, and the lifting of all restrictions. A great time to amp things up a bit and reintroduce these traditional vestments to our congregation. We set a schedule a year in advance for the Elders who assist as liturgical deacon, so it would depend on who is on that month.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Mark (and others),
What is the typical demographic of people who are opposed to liturgical worship and any idea why?

When I left the LCMS for the East in 2001, my parish was trying to compete with the large non-denominational churches that had grown up from the 1990s. We were in a quickly growing upper middle class suburb on the outskirts of Cincinnati. The LCMS church had been around since the 1980s as my parents were some of the founders as our "home" church was sponsoring missions further out in the suburbs. We had grown with the area, but by the late 90s, we were going more and more contemporary, mainly pushed by the baby boomers who at that time were in their 50s. We were trying all kinds of mission programs and church growth stuff. My final attempt was to offer a Bible study on the Augsburg Confession, but everyone instead wanted to do a "Bible study" on that Scriptural classic, "Who Moved My Cheese?" :sick:
 
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Paidiske

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I don't know that I see a "typical demographic." If I were to make a very broad generalisation over my church experience, I would say that in general, "high church" worship has been associated with congregations in a higher socio-economic bracket, and in particular higher education levels.

Note: I am aware that "low church" doesn't mean aliturgical, in theory. In practice, in Australian Anglicanism, however, it tends to mean a move away from prayer book norms.

I see that those folks who've been strongly influenced by the charismatic movement are not exactly opposed to liturgical worship, but want something more that liturgical worship doesn't satisfy.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't know that I see a "typical demographic." If I were to make a very broad generalisation over my church experience, I would say that in general, "high church" worship has been associated with congregations in a higher socio-economic bracket, and in particular higher education levels.

Note: I am aware that "low church" doesn't mean aliturgical, in theory. In practice, in Australian Anglicanism, however, it tends to mean a move away from prayer book norms.

I see that those folks who've been strongly influenced by the charismatic movement are not exactly opposed to liturgical worship, but want something more that liturgical worship doesn't satisfy.

That said, interestingly, Anglo Catholicism began with a special focus on the poor of London, so the same priests who were getting locked up at Wormwood Scrubs, Pentonville and other prisons for wearing chasubles (illegally, because as Rev. Percy Dearmer, who was a great humanitarian who set up a chandler, a textiles shop, and several other businesses to employ the poor who needed a job in the manufacture of liturgical accoutrements, pointed out, chasubles were actually legal under the Act of Uniformity, because they had been used briefly during the reign of King Edward VI under the 1549 BCP, and everything used during his reign is permitted by the Ornaments Rubric; fortunately by the time he published his classic Parson’s Handbook, which if you haven’t read, is a great book which was helpful to me in my first job and in my current work, and I would imagine an Anglican could get even more mileage out of it).

Actually, I think Anglo Catholics did at least as much as the Salvation Army to help the poor of South London, but no one remembers them for it. However it is not a coincidence that one of the two most Anglo Catholic parishes in London, All Saints Margaret Street, is on what was historically the “wrong side of the Thames”, and that the other, St. Magnus the Martyr, was situated in the City within walking distance of areas which were at the time ... not exactly Kensington, to put it simply.

Also, historically Roman Catholics in the UK were demographically less wealthy as a whole than Anglicans, with the exception of certain aristocratic families of the sort who managed to keep secret chapels on their premises, which the masses of Byrd and Tallis were written for, and who had “priest-holes” in which to secret clergy, particularly in Scotland. The majority were either converts who were poor (pew rent was a major cost attached to Anglican parish attendance in bygone days; the opening of new parishes providing free pews in the 19th century was something of a breakthrough), or Irish immigrants, who were even more impoverished.

I think the current low church tendency on the basis of lower income households is the result of aggressive targeting of such families by Pentecostal, Charismatic and Evangelical churches, and a lack of access to musical education, which interferes with music appreciation. However, this tendency is not universal. The Episcopal Church I attended during the final months of my friend’s priesthood had a congregation that was the least wealthy I saw in that particular town in California. And Needles, which is one of the poorest cities in California, and a candidate for the most miserable, does have an Episcopal parish and a chapel offering the Tridentine mass (its not SSPX but a related traditional Latin mass group outside of the control of the local dioceses).
 
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The Liturgist

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This is where the Continuing Anglican churches have something to teach the Anglican Communion. There was a time, not so long ago, when probably half of the clergy had gone through 'reading for orders' programs. This was distance based education prior to the advent of widespread online coursework. It was a concession to the situation of many of the clergy being working men or older individuals pursuing a second vocation, possibly without the undergraduate background necessary to enter a traditional seminary. It works something like this: the aspirant is attending a parish, being groomed by the clergy to serve in the chancel in various capacities. He is commited to a rule of prayer and study. The bishop or archdeacon supervises him in needful theological studies and institutes some method in testing his proficiency with the required material. Sometimes this leads to a degree issued by the jurisdiction which he has worked with and sometimes it simply leads to ordination. But the Continuing churches have struggled to maintain traditional seminaries, mostly because we have struggled to cooperate across boundary lines so often. So we've got the idea, if not the optimal execution.

Some of the Eastern Orthodox churches have similar programs, for example, ROCOR.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Mark (and others),
What is the typical demographic of people who are opposed to liturgical worship and any idea why?

When I left the LCMS for the East in 2001, my parish was trying to compete with the large non-denominational churches that had grown up from the 1990s. We were in a quickly growing upper middle class suburb on the outskirts of Cincinnati. The LCMS church had been around since the 1980s as my parents were some of the founders as our "home" church was sponsoring missions further out in the suburbs. We had grown with the area, but by the late 90s, we were going more and more contemporary, mainly pushed by the baby boomers who at that time were in their 50s. We were trying all kinds of mission programs and church growth stuff. My final attempt was to offer a Bible study on the Augsburg Confession, but everyone instead wanted to do a "Bible study" on that Scriptural classic, "Who Moved My Cheese?" :sick:
Nailed it; same with our congregation and the AC.

Older member that bought into the 60's male bovine scatology; some of it out of Semenex; some of it out Vatican II. "We need to be more relevant to reach the younger people"; I'm sure you have all heard this. Yet it is the younger clergy that are pro-liturgy.
 
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Paidiske

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That said, interestingly, Anglo Catholicism began with a special focus on the poor of London, so the same priests who were getting locked up at Wormwood Scrubs, Pentonville and other prisons for wearing chasubles (illegally, because as Rev. Percy Dearmer, who was a great humanitarian who set up a chandler, a textiles shop, and several other businesses to employ the poor who needed a job in the manufacture of liturgical accoutrements, pointed out, chasubles were actually legal under the Act of Uniformity, because they had been used briefly during the reign of King Edward VI under the 1549 BCP, and everything used during his reign is permitted by the Ornaments Rubric; fortunately by the time he published his classic Parson’s Handbook, which if you haven’t read, is a great book which was helpful to me in my first job and in my current work, and I would imagine an Anglican could get even more mileage out of it).

Actually, I think Anglo Catholics did at least as much as the Salvation Army to help the poor of South London, but no one remembers them for it. However it is not a coincidence that one of the two most Anglo Catholic parishes in London, All Saints Margaret Street, is on what was historically the “wrong side of the Thames”, and that the other, St. Magnus the Martyr, was situated in the City within walking distance of areas which were at the time ... not exactly Kensington, to put it simply.

Also, historically Roman Catholics in the UK were demographically less wealthy as a whole than Anglicans, with the exception of certain aristocratic families of the sort who managed to keep secret chapels on their premises, which the masses of Byrd and Tallis were written for, and who had “priest-holes” in which to secret clergy, particularly in Scotland. The majority were either converts who were poor (pew rent was a major cost attached to Anglican parish attendance in bygone days; the opening of new parishes providing free pews in the 19th century was something of a breakthrough), or Irish immigrants, who were even more impoverished.

I think the current low church tendency on the basis of lower income households is the result of aggressive targeting of such families by Pentecostal, Charismatic and Evangelical churches, and a lack of access to musical education, which interferes with music appreciation. However, this tendency is not universal. The Episcopal Church I attended during the final months of my friend’s priesthood had a congregation that was the least wealthy I saw in that particular town in California. And Needles, which is one of the poorest cities in California, and a candidate for the most miserable, does have an Episcopal parish and a chapel offering the Tridentine mass (its not SSPX but a related traditional Latin mass group outside of the control of the local dioceses).

Oh, I'm well aware of the excellent work done by those influenced by the Oxford movement, in the slums. I have a vague memory that one of them - I now can't remember which - advocated adding to the Creed: "And I believe in the London sewerage system," (then being put in place, and somewhat politically contentious) on the grounds that one cannot believe everything else in the Creed and then not care about the appalling squalor of those in poverty.

I have the Parson's Handbook but must admit I find it mostly of historical interest. :)

I think you're right that part of the divide now is driven by music/music appreciation. Educated people who want to sing in good choirs singing challenging works go to the sort of parish that has those choirs, and they tend to also be the sort of place where there's incense and fine vestments and all the rest. And university chapels with aspiring professional musicians play a part in creating and promoting that culture as well.

"We need to be more relevant to reach the younger people"; I'm sure you have all heard this. Yet it is the younger clergy that are pro-liturgy.

Yes, but as one of those younger clergy, I'm not necessarily pro- the sort of liturgy some of my elders have been on about, and neither are my peers. Few of us are interested in reproducing the liturgies of a historical (or indeed imagined) golden age of yore, but want to create fine liturgy which speaks powerfully in our own context.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Back in college, a fraternity brother's mother was the organist for an ELCA church and I mentioned that everything sounded like a funeral dirge on the organ. She said that back in the 1920s, organists were taught to play EVERYTHING solemnly. She then sat down at the piano and played, "A Mighty Fortress" at the correct tempo. It's properly played at a tempo of 100+ bpm rather than the usual dirge.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Oh, I'm well aware of the excellent work done by those influenced by the Oxford movement, in the slums. I have a vague memory that one of them - I now can't remember which - advocated adding to the Creed: "And I believe in the London sewerage system," (then being put in place, and somewhat politically contentious) on the grounds that one cannot believe everything else in the Creed and then not care about the appalling squalor of those in poverty.

I have the Parson's Handbook but must admit I find it mostly of historical interest. :)

I think you're right that part of the divide now is driven by music/music appreciation. Educated people who want to sing in good choirs singing challenging works go to the sort of parish that has those choirs, and they tend to also be the sort of place where there's incense and fine vestments and all the rest. And university chapels with aspiring professional musicians play a part in creating and promoting that culture as well.



Yes, but as one of those younger clergy, I'm not necessarily pro- the sort of liturgy some of my elders have been on about, and neither are my peers. Few of us are interested in reproducing the liturgies of a historical (or indeed imagined) golden age of yore, but want to create fine liturgy which speaks powerfully in our own context.
IMO, historic liturgies, are as relevant as the Bible, and they serve as a reference, a datum to keep the Church grounded. Think of a road-map; if you are completely lost, a road map is of no value; if you know where you are, where you came from, you can easily see where you are going. When we lose these points of reference, we are adrift, and left to our own devices, we are still without a reference.
 
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Paidiske

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IMO, historic liturgies, are as relevant as the Bible, and they serve as a reference, a datum to keep the Church grounded. Think of a road-map; if you are completely lost, a road map is of no value; if you know where you are, where you came from, you can easily see where you are going. When we lose these points of reference, we are adrift, and left to our own devices, we are still without a reference.

There's some truth to that, but there's also some truth to the need to keep updating the map as the landscape changes.

For example, I recently encountered a serious difference of opinion in my parish over the question of praying for the queen. (Yes, really). On the one hand, there was a view from some that support for the monarchy is an absolutely indispensable part of Anglican identity. On the other hand, there was a view from others that in a country with a serious republican movement and a desire from some of our folks to see a move away from the crown as head of state, praying for the queen could be seen as taking an inappropriate political position.

Does that mean that the 1662 BCP liturgies which pray for the queen are now irrelevant? Not exactly, but it means that I might make some sensitive choices about how we do that here and now, because this is not 1662 England and the reign of God is felt to relate to the current governing bodies differently than how the Elizabethan settlement might have imagined it.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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There's some truth to that, but there's also some truth to the need to keep updating the map as the landscape changes.

For example, I recently encountered a serious difference of opinion in my parish over the question of praying for the queen. (Yes, really). On the one hand, there was a view from some that support for the monarchy is an absolutely indispensable part of Anglican identity. On the other hand, there was a view from others that in a country with a serious republican movement and a desire from some of our folks to see a move away from the crown as head of state, praying for the queen could be seen as taking an inappropriate political position.

Does that mean that the 1662 BCP liturgies which pray for the queen are now irrelevant? Not exactly, but it means that I might make some sensitive choices about how we do that here and now, because this is not 1662 England and the reign of God is felt to relate to the current governing bodies differently than how the Elizabethan settlement might have imagined it.
Or, provided some sound catechesis regarding how David still honored Saul despite Saul's desire to get rid of David. Worldly government is instituted by God, we must honor our government and pray for them.

God save the Queen.

Amen.
 
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Shane R

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It's properly played at a tempo of 100+ bpm rather than the usual dirge.
There is no church music more dirgey than the singing of the Amish. I have recently learned something of that tradition. It's not unlike the Stone-Campbell Church of Christ singing I was raised on, but even slower and never in four part harmony. Church of Christ congregations in the Appalachians are notorious for slowing the tempos down but they've never managed to turn a 7 stanza hymn into a 30 minute exercise.

The Copts can also stretch a hymn out, but their music is of an entirely different character. It's not dirgey, it's joyful.

Does that mean that the 1662 BCP liturgies which pray for the queen are now irrelevant?
There is a new book called the 1662 International Edition. I think this was primarily targeted to Americans but I don't have a copy. It was produced by 2 Americans, at least one of which is an ACNA member. Anyhow, they chose to neutralize those sticky situations by removing specific references to the monarchy and substituting phrases which could apply to a variety of forms of government.
 
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The Liturgist

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There is no church music more dirgey than the singing of the Amish. I have recently learned something of that tradition. It's not unlike the Stone-Campbell Church of Christ singing I was raised on, but even slower and never in four part harmony. Church of Christ congregations in the Appalachians are notorious for slowing the tempos down but they've never managed to turn a 7 stanza hymn into a 30 minute exercise.

The Copts can also stretch a hymn out, but their music is of an entirely different character. It's not dirgey, it's joyful.


There is a new book called the 1662 International Edition. I think this was primarily targeted to Americans but I don't have a copy. It was produced by 2 Americans, at least one of which is an ACNA member. Anyhow, they chose to neutralize those sticky situations by removing specific references to the monarchy and substituting phrases which could apply to a variety of forms of government.

I think in this case the easiest thing to do is look at what the Eastern Orthodox in that country do in a given country in the Litany of Peace and then just use that as a template. For example, with variations, in the US, this is something like:

Priest or Deacon: For the President of the United States and all civil authorities, let us pray to the Lord.
Response: Kyrie eleison.

The reason why I like this format is brevity. Despite the Roman Rite’s reputation for Brevity, sometimes a Collect can be a bit lengthier than needed, for example, some of the items in the Anglican Great Litany really feel like Collects, and there is a superabundance of prayers for the Queen and royal family, which has actually worked out well since the traditional Matins-Litany-(Ante)Communion service pattern is sadly defunct, and I do feel like there is more prayer for civil authorities in the Anglican Rite than the Roman Rite, which is not a bad thing, but I really like the bullet-point style of the Byzantine Litany.

Another related format I love is the Husoyo, a Syriac Rite prayer of propitiation, which features multiple parts, like a super-Collect, such as Proemion, which is like a preface, a Sedro, which is like the body, an Etro, or prayer over incence...it is quite a lovely format.

But the Collect is of course the bread and butter of Roman Rite and derivative (Anglican, Lutheran, etc) liturgies.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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There are provisions in TLH, LW, LSB in the prayers for "Her Majesty the Queen of the British Commonwealth of nations, the Governor-general, the prime Minster the Premier of our province and all the governments and Parliaments and all the Judges and Magistrates.

As it should be.
 
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The Liturgist

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There are provisions in TLH, LW, LSB in the prayers for "Her Majesty the Queen of the British Commonwealth of nations, the Governor-general, the prime Minster the Premier of our province and all the governments and Parliaments and all the Judges and Magistrates.

As it should be.

Indeed, I believe the Orthodox litany is basically the same in Canada; in the UK I believe there is also a prayer for the Prince of Wales.

I think these prayers for our leaders are extremely important. I think it is telling that the early church prayer for the Caesar and the Sassanian Shah and the Maharajas of Kerala, and all the other non-Christian civil authorities, on equal terms with prayers in Armenia, Georgia and Ethiopia for their Christian rulers. Indeed, the Copts and Greek Orthodox of Alexandria even prayed for the military victory of their Muslim overlords. From the 1893 recension of the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, which might be the oldest liturgical tradition*

Prayer of the Second Antiphon (For the Ruler)

Priest (secretly): O Master, Lord God, Father of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, we beseech and pray Thee to keep our King (or: all those in civil authority) in peace and fortitude and righteousness. Subdue unto him (or: unto Thy people) every foe and adversary, lay hand upon the shield and buckler and rise up to help him (or: us). Grant him (or: us) victories, O Lord, and dispose him (or: those in authority) peaceably towards us and to Thy holy name, that we also in the tranquillity of his (or: their) days may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and uprightness.


Through the grace and compassion and love towards mankind of Thine only-begotten Son, through Whom and with Whom be to Thee the glory and majesty, with Thine all-holy and good and life-creating Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.



*the scholarship which had earlier pointed to the Liturgies of St. James and Hippolytus now is beginning to make it look like St. James is a derivative of St. Basil, Hippolytus is obviously third century, and we appear to have second century attestation of St. Mark via the Strasbourg Papyrus, and also the Liturgy of Addai and Mari.
 
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Because we can never talk enough about liturgical beauty, here is a letter I wrote to a colleague in my liturgical group about Night Prayer from St. Stephen Walbrook, one of my favorite parishes in London, whose distinctive altar we discussed earlier in the thread, in which I segued into a discussion of BCP editions, which members may find interesting or boring beyond belief (by the way @Paidiske , did I link you to the YouTube videos showing how the massive round main altar at that church is used? They do basically just use the edge; occasionally a wreath or other decorations might be in the center. This may be of interest to @Shane R , @PloverWing, @Philip_B , @Andrewn and @Deegie, or it may not, but it seemed worth it to share, since at a minimum, I really love the nightly Night Prayer videos St. Stephen Walbrook does, as well as their monthly Choral Evensong and weekly Choral Eucharist services, which are beautifully done, and available on YouTube. So here is my letter:


https://ststephenwalbrook.net/night-prayer/

St. Stephen Walbrook now has a daily Night Prayer said service, with some Gregorian chant in the background; there is a new service daily. I believe they normally use Compline as found in the English Deposited Book of 1928.* The service lasts under ten minutes and features a homily, while being fully liturgical; thus is accomplished by omitting some or all of the four Psalms normally sung at Compline, which if included, stretch the service out to fifteen minutes, a justifiable omission, considering that the service is read by one person. The said recitation of the Psalms is not devoid of beauty, but there are better ways of experiencing them; in a sense, this service is the opposite of the sung Compline at St. Mark’s Episcopal Cathedral in Seattle, which has gorgeous Gregorian chant and related music by a dedicated choir, and which attracts a dedicated audience, which proves that the Divine Office can and should be a part of the worship services in many places where it has been set aside in favor of only doing a Sunday Eucharist, or worse, a Sunday Ante-Communion with monthly Eucharists. And the clergy shortage does not have to impact Divine Office services, since you don’t need a priest, a deacon or even a formally licensed reader for any of them, although I think encouraging lay leadership of the Divine Office should entail equipping the leaders of different services with the skills and dignities appropriate to the job, depending on the rules and rubrics in the church in question.

*This is the superb, beautiful Anglo Catholic refurbishment of the 1662 BCP, which removed all of the Cranmerian ugliness while leaving in the good bits, and adding to them, with provision for the reservation of the sacrament, and a new office of Prime and of Compline. Of course, even though the majority of Anglican MPs voted to approve the 1928 Deposited Book** , a small group of low churchmen formed an alliance with Church of Scotland MPs, and non-conformist Calvinist and low church evangelical MPs from England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and thus had enough votes to defeat it. Fortunately, the Church of England slowly introduced bits of the book into use in the coming decades, and now has liturgical autonomy, except I don’t think they can call a new liturgical text the Book of Common Prayer, but as an example, the beautiful 2011 Royal Wedding of Prince William and Kate Middleton at Westminster Abbey was basically using the 1928 marriage service, which is now in the modular Common Worship facility that most C of E parishes use.

Additionally, the offices of Prime and Compline also appeared, along with an extremely short Midday Prayer, in the 1962 Canadian BCP, which would be one of the four best versions, along with the 1928 American BCP, the 1929 Scottish BCP, and the 1938 Melanesian BCP, except they had to go and delete potentially offensive verses from the Imprecatory Psalms, rather than explaining their meaning. I think it might not be a bad idea in the case of Super Flumina (Psalm 137/ Psalm 136 LXX) to attach to the Psalter an explanatory homily to be read with that Psalm explaining the meaning of verses 7-9, in that, if we read it, as we should, with a primarily Alexandrian typological-prophetic context, it is not encouraging the murder of the children of Babylon, or Seleucia-Cstesiphon, or Baghdad, or any other children, Mesopotamian or otherwise, but rather, Babylon is a metaphor for the domain of the evil one and his demons; their little ones, their offspring, are sin and death, and the psalm is predicting our Lord Jesus Christ defeating these in his Incarnation, Passion, Resurrection, Ascension, and in the Eschaton at the dread day of judgement. This could be used any time that Psalm came up, which would be arbitrary if we used the monthly Psalter, although using the system of Kathisma and Stases, since there are 60 stases, I devised a plan whereby each Sunday in the year could have set Psalms, while the other Psalms could be read on a six day, seven day, twice weekly or monthly format, and if using a format other than the six day schedule, an extra divine office could be added called Psalmody** which would consist of the singing or reading of any Psalms displaced by the alternate Psalms on Sunday or perhaps on certain feast days, and like Night Prayer, Psalmody would be a great online service.

**in a nod to the Coptic tradition (although Psalmody in their case really refers to Vespers, Vigils and Matins; I could write a lengthy article on how the Coptic Rite uniquely combines three different divine office systems, the monastic Agpeya, or Hours, the Morning and Evening Raising of Incense, which look like a vestigial Cathedral Office, and the Psalmody, which is a normal sung monastic office of vespers, the midnight office or vigils, and matins, where the Old Testament is read, and which is less meditative and more liturgical than the Agpeya, which seems like it was optimized for individual use by monks who read all the Psalms in it daily as a kind of Hesychasm, but which is now also used congregationally on top of the other divine two divine offices.

By the way, the fourth best BCP edition I would controversially propose is the 1979, since it is public domain, it has the only marginally tolerable contemporary vernacular liturgical texts I have encountered, it preserves the traditional language material in Rite I, but it adds the hymn Phos Hilarion to Evensong, which is brilliant, because Mattins has always had in the same place Veni Creator Spiritus; it also included “Rite III” which has enabled parishes to celebrate various Holy Communion services not in the 1979 BCP, for example, the 1549 liturgy, or the Sarum Rite mass, or the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. And it has a rubric allowing the conversion of the entire book to traditional language, which happened, with the 1994 Anglican Service Book, which is exquisite. This displacement is more because what is in the 1962 Canadian BCP is mostly available elsewhere; its communion service is above average but low church,en still had too much influence, so it is not as high church as say, the 1928 American, 1929 Scottish, or 1979 American BCP (most controversial changes in the 1979 were in a high church or Anglo Catholic direction, for example, the deprecation of the 39 Articles to a historical reference document, and the new catechism), because the 1979 BCP does follow in the footsteps of the 1962 Canadian BCP regarding imprecatory psalms.

Now, at first glance, it might seem to be a misstep on the part of John Wesley in his Sunday Service Book for the Methodists in North America, in which he outright deleted the imprecatory Psalms and replaced them with other things, including hymns by his brother Charles - although, I think he could in that time and place have been justified in doing so, because at that time especially, the Protestant tendency, especially in North America due to Puritan influence, was to read everything in a super-literal way, and the Imprecatory Psalms could have been, in the inept hands of the Puritan heretics, a contributing factor to Puritan acts of cruelty, for example, the Salem Witch Trials, and there is a pastoral justification to not include in the lectionary or psalter things which in the absence of well trained clergy and well catechized laity, could be misinterpreted in a dangerous way. In obeying Christ’s command to feed His sheep, we do on occasion have to use baby formula (As the Holy Apostle Paul asserts in 1 Corinthians 3:1).

If you view the service, you may get a different impression than I did - specific service I watched featured an Anglican Prebendary doing a brief, informative although not particularly good hagiographical/biographical sermon on St. Wilfred of Rippon, using the aforementioned Compline from the 1928 Deposited Book, which he pronounced in an elegant way, but did compress by omitting the four Psalms - the service otherwise takes 15 minutes with no homily. (I assume you know what a Prebendary is; basically, for the most part, honorary canons who are assigned seats in the very comfortable top and back row of the choir in English cathedrals, who are usually distinguished parish priests who also assist the residential canons in the administration of the cathedral church, so essentially, an archpriest; however, historically, it referred to a type of benefice that was financed by estates belonging to a cathedral or collegiate church; only one collegiate church of the original form survived that great evil act of avarice which was the Dissolution of the Monasteries under Henry VIII (as opposed to the neo-Collegiate Church we see in Westminster Abbey, which ceased to be an Abbey and was for most of the rest of the 16th century the cathedral of the City of Westminster, but it was then decided to merge the diocese of Westminster with that of London, so St. Paul’s became the cathedral for Westminster once more, and Westminster Abbey formally became the Collegiate Church of St. Peter, but it retained the cathedral system of management, and became a Royal Peculiar (under the personal jurisdiction of the Queen, not part of any parish; the Savoy Chapel, the Chapels in the Tower of London, and the Chapel Royal of St. George in Windsor are some examples of these), so the last traditional Collegiate Church is St. Endellion in Cornwall, which is run by six prebendaries, including the rector, four vicars from neighboring parishes (which now form with St. Endelion a parish cluster), and Dr. Rowan Williams.

** The 1928 English Deposited Book is at risk of confusion with the exquisite 1928 American BCP (which has a supplementary Office of Compline, which predated it by a number of years, being a supplement to the 1892 BCP, which is also a very good and very underrated BCP edition, in fact, the edition that one would assume St. Tikhon of Moscow reviewed when he was Bishop of New York, working with St. Rafael of Brooklyn on Anglican-Orthodox relations; his analysis of the BCP led to the development of the revisions which enabled Western Rite Orthodoxy to use it, and indeed, the adapted version is called by the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate, in St. Andrew’s Service Book, the Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon.
 
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The Liturgist

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@Paidiske - This parish of the Assyrian Church of the East in New South Wales might be an Eastern church you could visit and get something out of without compromising on your stance on open communion. Unlike the Oriental Orthodox (with the exception of the smallest of the three major Syriac Orthodox churches in India, the Malankara Independent Syrian Church, which is not in communion with any other Oriental Orthodox Church but is in communion with the Mar Thoma Syrian Church, a Protestant West Syriac church which is a member of the Anglican Communion), and the Eastern Orthodox, and the Sui Juris Eastern Catholic churches, both the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East allow anyone who has been baptized in the Trinitarian formula, and believes in the Nicene Creed and the Real Presence, which potentially means anyone from a Calvinist to a Roman Catholic, basically anyone who is not a Zwinglist or a Memorialist, to partake of the Eucharist. And St. Peter and Paul Assyrian Church of the East is the first parish in the Church of the East to celebrate the liturgy in English.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8WZ07DFfAZPS4u1eE-BKQTaVxbyLsuvo

For the rest of us, this provides us with a new appreciation for the East Syriac liturgy, because unlike the Syriac Orthodox churches, which do use English and other vernacular languages, usually mixed with Syriac and either Arabic or Malayalam, depending on whether they are from the Middle East or India, historically, the Church of the East has done everything in a mix of vernacular Assyrian East Syriac Neo-Aramaic and Classical Syriac, since the Assyrians constitute the largest population of native Syriac, indeed, native Aramaic speakers, by far, and given the disruption of religious minorities like the Mandaeans and the very small, and steadily shrinking number of vernacular Aramaic speakers in the Syriac Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, Jewish, and Islamic communities, the best hope for the survival of Aramaic as a living, spoken, vernacular language is in the members of the Church of the East (well, the two Churches of the East; the Ancient Church of the East broke away from the Assyrian Church of the East when some junior bishops discovered that the hereditary Patriarchate was a violation of canon law, and because the last hereditary Catholicos-Patriarch changed the church to the Gregorian Calendar, vs. the traditional Julian Calendar; that Patriarch, Mar Shimun, was tragically assassinated in 1975 and his successor, Mar Dinkha IV, memory eternal, implemented a number of reforms which have had the effect of slowly restoring confidence between the two churches, and both announced their intent to reunify.

Then, the civil wars and the persecutions of Christians in the Middle East happened; Mar Addai II, who has been Catholicos of the Ancient Church of the East since he was 24, in the 1960s, is now one of only three living primates of an autocephalous Middle Eastern church who held office before the persecutions heated up in 2011, the other two being the Greek Orthodox Pope of Alexandria and the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem. I think the rest, such as Mar Dinkha IV, the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas, the Coptic Orthodox Pope Shenouda, and the Antiochian Orthodox Patriarch Ignatius IV, along with several Eastern Catholic Patriarchs including the Chaldean Patriarch of Babylon, and many other bishops and archbishops, such as the beloved Metropolitan Philip Saliba of the autonomous Antiochian Orthodox Church in North America, as well as the Yazidi religious leader Baba Sheikh, died from a combination of crushing stress, sorrow, anxiety and old age, although only Patriarch Ignatius Zakka Iwas was actually in seriously bad health for any extended period of time before the war.

The Assyrian Church of the East recently elected a new Catholicos-Patriarch, Mar Awa III Royel, who I have had the pleasure of meeting on multiple occasions, and I anticipate the Church of the East could be reunified within the decade, which is good, because schisms are always bad.
 
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That's interesting kinda has the feel of 1/2 the Armenian service, and 1/2 the Coptic one. Never been to a Syriac Church of A one, since they pretty much were only in LA area when I lived in California, although seen plenty of You-tube videos.


Bad sound quality when giving the homily, kinda stopped watching at that point, his voice was kind of low and lots of echos, I just skipped a bit past that to take a look at what the rest of the service looked like. Interesting seeing them use the curtain like the original saint James liturgy and what the Armenians use, and the organ music etc. The vestments, chanting etc. were a little more Coptic in look, sound.
 
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That's interesting kinda has the feel of 1/2 the Armenian service, and 1/2 the Coptic one. Never been to a Syriac Church of A one, since they pretty much were only in LA area when I lived in California, although seen plenty of You-tube videos.


Bad sound quality when giving the homily, kinda stopped watching at that point, his voice was kind of low and lots of echos, I just skipped a bit past that to take a look at what the rest of the service looked like. Interesting seeing them use the curtain like the original saint James liturgy and what the Armenians use, and the organ music etc. The vestments, chanting etc. were a little more Coptic in look, sound.

Note that the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark / St. Cyril, is probably older than the Divine Liturgy of St. James, as is the Assyrian Liturgy of Addai and Mari. In fact, those two liturgies are the oldest attested to, the only liturgies where we have second century attestation. The Armenian Anaphora of St. Athanasius is the only Armenian anaphora still in use, since the 13th or 14th century; prior to the excessive Byzantinization and Romanization of their liturgy, they had many anaphoras, about as many as the Ethiopians, 13 or 14, including the Anaphora of St. Basil, and a Presanctified Liturgy. The Anaphora of St. Athanasius, which is unrelated to an Ethiopian anaphora of the same name, is an abbreviated version of the Anaphora of St. James.

Also it may interest you to note that the current liturgical state of the art suggests the possibility that the Anaphora of St. James is a derivative of the Anaphora of St. Basil, rather than vice versa, as was previously supposed.

I have a number of ebooks on the liturgy, including a great many in the public domain, and also, the non-profit group I am involved in that compiles public domain liturgical texts (we are gearing up for our first releases next month) has educational licenses with certain ebook providers, so if you are really seriously interested in learning more about liturgical history, PM me.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Also it may interest you to note that the current liturgical state of the art suggests the possibility that the Anaphora of St. James is a derivative of the Anaphora of St. Basil, rather than vice versa, as was previously supposed.

One of the saying of the Assyrian rite bishop I mentioned before in my past, who I wrote about yesterday here...

The Shepherd who really did leave the 99 to go after the 1!

He said that the Lakumara "Was the oldest or one of the oldest hymms" in Christian history. ("You Oh Lord we confess, and you Jesus Christ we glorify, for you are the quickener of our bodies and you are the savior of our souls).

There technically is a hymn that is older that is quoted by saint Paul from Philippians (reminded recently of it in a David Wood video that I can't locate).

A Hymn to Christ? (Philippians 2:6-11)


I also recall the Copts have a hymm around Holy Week "which tune goes back to the time of the Pharos".
 
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