Literal or not? How do I tell?

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LewisWildermuth

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In another forum a moderator of CF, Louis Booth, stated:

seebs..(i'm not addressing the subject) the context tells you if it is literal or not, something you usually forget about

Now I have never found and rules that can easilt tell me what is literal in the Bible and what is not...

The literal translation of Gen 1 and 2 and the flood story are often flaunted as being good reasions to deny what science tells us about the age of the earth and evolution. Is there something that I have been missing that stated that these events are and must be literal?

Thank you for your help.
 

Didaskomenos

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Lewis,

Of course the context alone doesn't always tell you if it's literal or not - it also takes looking at the kind of literature it is. For instance, if it is in Acts, it's likely not metaphorical and probably historical. Genesis 1-11 reads very much like the myths of contemporaneous cultures, but with a Hebrew twist of moralism, so many (myself included) don't read it as a historical account (although there may be historical events alluded to).

But you know what? It's not always obvious. It's up to prayer and personal perspective as to whether you decide that something is literal or "metaliteral." It takes very intense scrutiny. And you might not always agree in the end with a lot of other Christians (even moderators) - but that's ok. :)
 
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LouisBooth

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Hey, you don't have to agree with me to be a christians..LOL..you do have to agree to the essentials, which the literal reading of genesis is not one of. :) Context tells you weather its literal or not. If I say, "the sky is blue" that's exactly what I mean. Now if I say, "I'm soo sad, that even the sky looks blue." That context tells me that I am not nessisarily giving a literal remark talking about the color of the sky. In genesis there is no place that gives you the indication that it is a nonliteral passage. If you think otherwise I'd love to see where you think it starts and more importantly where it ends and why you think that.
 
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I wonder if some of Revelations may be metaphorical, and here's an example: My 77-year-old neighbor thinks that the "locusts" will actually be helicopters. Of course, I don't take her word as gospel (because it could actually *be* locusts), but I didn't totally discount the possibility, either. (Of course, if Jesus decides to come down in my lifetime, what difference does it make? Believers are swept up in the clouds with Him and won't have to go through the Tribulation, anyhow).
 
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LewisWildermuth

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Hmmm... My last post seems to have dissapeared into the ether...

Well, let's try again...

Louis, "the sky is blue" is a perfect example.

Is it the truth? In a way if you set the correct parameters.

If I take a cup of sky is the matter in the cup blue? No, it is clear.
The sky appears plue because of the scattering of the blue light passing
through it. Is it always blue? No at sunset and sunrise it is redish, on
a cloudy day it is greyish, at night it is black. but in that jar it is
still clear durring all those times.

Now back to Genesis... There is a snake mentioned as the tempter of the
garden... Now was this a literal snake? Was it satan?

I have heard both stated as the "truth".

If the creation story is literal than it is a snake. If it is not it could
be either. But being non literal still does not deminish the "truth of the
document. Just because I say I believe some of the Bible is non literal does not mean that I do not think it is important. Some of the ideas, to me alteast, are even more important with a non literal than they were with a literal translation.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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That does not surprise me, they had no reason not to see it as both a moral and a literal story. But I also think that there was a reason we were told to look at nature for evidence of Gods glory.

I was a literalist for quite a while too, then a friend of mine who was also a biology prof jumped me for a few of the misconceptions I had about biology and evolution from my creationist stand point. And to hummor him I looked deeper into science and found that I not he was the one who was decived. My faith was shaken to the core, not because of anything the Bible said but by those who I had listened to that had claimed to know the subject very well didn't have a clue. All the standard arguments for literalism in Gen fell one by one the more I learned about the real world. I may have fallen compleatly away from the church if the professor and a few others who I respected did not hold me up in this crisis. I slowly came back into the faith realising that God was so much more than I had ever believed.

Many of the creation stories around the world are written as literaly taking place, that does not make them all literaly true.

And Genesis being not literal does not make Christianity a lie, in my eyes the non literal interpretation of much of Genesis makes it stronger.
 
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Didaskomenos

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It's a knee-jerk reaction that Christians have - it's like Pavlov's dogs:

-"...evolution..."
-"My brother, can't you have faith in God? His word is true, and man's science cannot topple the truth of the Bible."

In dog-speak:

"evolution" = the Bible is wrong

rather than:

"evolution" = the Bible has non-historical (non-literal) narratives that convey truth metaphorically

It's that first type of conditioning that I wish more Christians were willing to challenge. There's a reason many firm Christians believe that evolution is possible - and it's not an atheist plot. That's why I'm glad to read what you wrote, Lewis.
 
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seebs

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What always stuns me is the absolute smugness with which people tell me that I just don't understand the Bible yet, because it's "obvious" that the stuff about the immovable earth is figurative, but that Genesis is literal. I don't think it's "obvious" unless you already made up your mind.
 
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If you take the story of Genesis to be symbolical due to your observation that it does not have any scientific merit, then would you also consider the plagues in Exodus to be literal? How about the Ark of Noah, literal or symbolical? And the ascension of Elijah in chariots of fire to the heaven? And how about the account of Jonah in the belly of the whale (big fish)?

I do believe that science and religion must agree, but yet always look for clues in the Word whether a passage should be taken literally or figuratively. One good observation that you have made has to do with the book of Genesis and the snake which would indicate that the story is allegorical. I would like to elaborate further and strengthen your position by citing two more reasons (among many other):

1. genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

Obviously, the flesh here does not mean physical flesh but rather has a more profound and spiritual meaning.

2. Genesis 3:20   Now the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.

Obviously, Eve, if taken literally, is not the mother of all the living.

I am still looking for a reasonable explanation of the opening chapters of Genesis and the story of creation.

We need to remind ourselves strongly that the books are sealed until the return of the Lord when the seals are to be broken and the true meanings be revealed. I believe that these true meanings will be in accordance with science and reason.


 

 
 
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LouisBooth

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"What makes you think I was talking about you? "

You've said that to me before, or something pretty akin to it :)

"Now was this a literal snake? Was it satan?"

It was, in my opinion, literally a snake. If you check out some jewish background the snake was the deciever. He was the "sly one". The fact is though that the creation event in context, is literal. I think examining the literaty style and wording proves just that. The only way you can say other wise is just to say that the word YOM doesn't mean a literal 24 hour period (roughly).
 
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LouisBooth

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Mike, you've hit on the exact problem of a nonliteral reading of genesis. there is no indication in the text that a change of literal to nonliteral starts or ends. Therefore you have one of two choices. 1. the whole book of genesis is nonliteral or it is all literal. I believe people say what they mean and choose literal, among many other reasons such as the explicit referal to a man named Adam in the NT. If it was nonliteral then this person would not be referered to specifically, for the name Adam would be generic in nature.
 
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In my experience in studying the Bible, I have had the opportunity to sit down with people with completely different backgrounds and approaches to the understanding of the Word of God. One thing that we have come to understand is that the New testament sheds a very spiritual light on the meaning of the Old Testament. Taking this as a hint, we have also come to understand that in order to establish a cohesiveness in the Word of God, a spiritual/figurative interpretation has the upper hand. I share with you a very simple example. In John 3:13, the Lord says that He has come down from heaven, that He has gone up to heaven and that He is already in heaven. Here is the actual verse from KJV

John 3:123 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

We know that when He was saying this, He was on earth, and moreover He was physically born of Mary. We are bound to interpret this in a spiritual way attaching an allegorical meaning to heaven stating that the qualities of our Lord, came from a lofty place called heaven which does not mean the physical sky.

Yet, we insist on attaching a literal meaning to heaven when we talk about Elijah ascending to heaven. The jews insisted and expected that Elijah had to come down from heaven (physical sky) (Malachi 4:5) and asked Christ about this and He told them that it was John the Baptist who had fulfilled the prophecy

Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

And He attaches a spiritual significance to it in the following verse:

Matthew 11:15 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

One can also see Matthew 17:10-12 for further elaboration on this.

Luke 1:17 explains this beautifully:

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Now, let us ask ourselves these questions:

Did John the Baptist come down from heaven? I say, yes he did.
Did Elijah come down from heaven? I say, yes he did.

Now let us ask ourselves this last question:

Did Elijah go up to this physical sky as we know it?

To interpret the heaven in an allegorical and figurative way, we will not have any problem establishing cohesiveness in the Word, but if we try to attach a literal "physical sky" meaning, we will alas fal into the same trap that the jews did when they rejected our Lord.

 
 
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LouisBooth

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"Did Elijah go up to this physical sky as we know it? "

Yes, because it was a physical event. In Mat 11 Christ is talking about the person that is preparing the way for him.

In the passage in 2nd kings it is very literal in nature. There is no indicaction in the text that it is not...
 
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Louisbooth, Based on what you are saying then, I would really feel a lot of pity for the jews at the time of our Lord was in this world. Two thousand years ago, the Jewish people were expecting to see Elijah literally, physically descend from heaven... possibly in the exact same "chariot of fire" that he had used to ascend "into heaven." Furthermore, they also expected that soon after Elijah's return, the Messiah was going to appear. And they knew that when the Messiah came, he not only was going to free them from Roman domination, but he also was going to exalt Israel over all the nations of the earth. The Jewish people had good reason to believe these things. These expectations are derived from explicit statements made in the Bible.

The story of how the 'return of Elijah' prophecy was actually fulfilled can be found in two separate places in the New Testament. It can also be found in a 1900 year old, non-Biblical, Christian book that provides us with what is probably the most graphic example illustrating the importance of this prophecy.

Justin Martyr was a very prominent Christian at a time when Christianity was still in its infancy. In "Eerdman's Handbook to the History of Christianity" Justin Martyr is described as "the most notable of the second century [Christian] apologists." (p. 108)

Justin Martyr lived approximately 100 AD. He wrote a book titled The Dialogue with Trypho the Jew. This book is a record of a discussion between Justin Martyr and Trypho- a Jewish rabbi. This "dialogue" begins with Justin telling the rabbi that he believes that Jesus was the long awaited Messiah. The following excerpt contains this rabbi's response.

It reads:

"When I (Justin) had said this, [the students who were with the rabbi] laughed; but he smiling, says, 'I approve of your other remarks, and admire the eagerness with which you study divine things; but it were better for you abide in the philosophy of Plato..."

Before Justin became a Christian he was a follower of the Greek philosophers and he still wore the characteristic flowing robes of a Roman philosopher. The quote continues:


"...It were better for you abide in the philosophy of Plato rather than be deceived by false words, and follow the opinions of people of no reputation... for when you have forsaken God, and reposed confidence in man, what safety still awaits you?"

Now, here's the important part:

"...But Christ- if he has indeed been born, and exists anywhere... has no power until Elijah comes to anoint him, and make him manifest to all. And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing." -Ante Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1, p. 198.

In this one short passage, this rabbi reveals exactly what the Jewish religious leaders and the Jewish people of two thousand years ago were expecting to see before the Messiah appeared. Trypho knew that Jesus could not possibly have been the Messiah because he knew from the unmistakable text of the 'return of Elijah' prophecy that anyone who claimed to be the Christ before Elijah the Prophet had visibly returned from heaven would have to be a false Prophet.

Jesus explained to the people that,

In fact, he [Elijah] already has come, but he wasn't recognized, and was badly mistreated by many... Then the disciples realized he was speaking of John the Baptist."-Matthew 17:10-13 (LIVING BIBLE-CATHOLIC EDITION) (this account can also be found in: Mark 9:11-13)

Clearly, Jesus taught that this was a true prophecy. Jesus agreed that Elijah indeed "must return before the Messiah comes." But then, to the surprise to everyone there, Jesus claimed that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of this prophecy. 

 
Jesus' explanation was not well received by the Jewish religious leaders. The rabbis considered them selves to be the greatest experts of Judaism in the entire world. They knew what their prophecies said and they certainly thought they knew what was going to happen when the Messiah finally did appear. As far as they could see none of these prophecies had been fulfilled, Elijah had not returned and there certainly was no visible evidence that the Messiah had come. Nothing had changed. Everything was just as it always had been.

How, they wondered, could John possibly have been the return of Elijah? Malachi didn't say anything about Elijah's return being in some mysterious, unrecognizable way. Neither does he say that some other man is going to be born hundreds of years later and that this man somehow was going to be the return of Elijah. Instead, Malachi clearly says that Elijah himself was going to return. That's not a difficult concept to visualize. Elijah ascended into heaven in a chariot of fire. And he's going to come back. Visibly. Physically. In the flesh. Or so they thought.

The rabbis did not believe Jesus' explanation that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah. And why should they? They knew that Elijah was supposed to visibly return from heaven and, as the elect of Judaism, it's very likely that they would have expected to be among the very first to welcome him when he actually did return. After all, how could they possibly miss anything as obvious as a Prophet of God floating down from out of the sky in a chariot of fire?

Malachi's prophecy explicitly says that Elijah himself was going to return... not some other man. Instead of Elijah personally returning from heaven, what the rabbis actually got was John... a dirty looking fellow, who wore a leather loincloth, a camel's hair robe and who ate locusts for lunch. John the Baptist actually ate grasshoppers! John did not fit any picture that the rabbis might have had of what the spectacular second coming of Elijah was going to be like. John the Baptist didn't come floating down from heaven. Instead, he came into the world in the same way as everyone else. John had a mother. He had a father. John had been born as a child and he had grown up just like everyone else. On the other hand, Elijah had been born eight hundred and fifty years before John. John was not named Elijah. John had a different body, a different personality, different teachings and a different purpose.

The rabbis might have also pointed out that even John himself had said that he was not Elijah. At one point, early in his ministry, John the Baptist was asked whether he was Elijah. He answered that he was not. (see John 1:21)

Nothing about John would indicate that he was Elijah. Elijah had physically ascended "into heaven" in a "chariot of fire." And, everyone believed that the same Elijah who had disappeared into heaven was himself, personally going to return... possibly even in the same "chariot of fire" that he had used when he ascended up into heaven.

In what way could John the Baptist have been the return of Elijah? Certainly not literally. This apparent contradiction can be resolved by a statement made at the beginning of the Gospel of Luke where it explains that John went "on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah." Luke 1:17 (KJV)

So you see, there is no way for me to take the account in 2 Kings as literal. It just would plainly contradict what the New Testament teaches. 
 
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LouisBooth

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"because he knew from the unmistakable text of the 'return of Elijah' "


This event could be totally seperate from him going up to heaven. What passage are you refering to when you talk about Ellijah coming back down?

No where in the passage in 2nd kings does it talk about him coming back down. So what passage are you talking about? You're making a leap that isn't there, please do not do so. Thanks :)

If you're refering to the Mal 4:5 this in no way makes any link to how he will come in accordance to how he left. You're making a connection thats not in the scriptures and adding things in. This is the first thing you are NOT to do in interpreation of the bible.

Mal 4:5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the LORD comes."

This makes no connection to how he left of that it will be him comeing from the sky. You're making no sence at all biblically.
 
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Quick response!

Elijah went up to heaven and the Jews expected him to come down from heaven because that is exactly where he went to according to a literal interpretation of 2 Kings. So naturally, they expected him to come back from the sky again. But let me ask you two questions:

1. Where should have the jews expected Elijah to come from?

2. Why did Jesus go through the trouble of explaining that John the Baptist was indeed Elijah? What was the merit in this teaching?
 
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