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Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by TribulationSigns, Aug 11, 2020.

  1. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are many people within the church who claim that their interpretation of the four beasts of Daniel 7 is correct. And they taught to many, through their sermons, books, movies, etc. I disagree because...

    What most "professing Christians" believe is irrelevant. The words which man's wisdom teaches "the many" concerning eschatology is as foolishness to God. The natural man, as a beast, the carnal man living by the flesh, the wicked man is without sound judgment and doesn't understand the Spiritual.

    1st Corinthians 2:13-16
    • "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    • But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    • But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
    • For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."
    I'm sure you've heard those verses before, but have you "heard" those verses before? The Spiritual man judgeth by that Spirit, but the natural man is like a beast, because he is evil and without the image of God, he is without sound judgment. That most believe something does not make something sound. Interpretation is not by committee, it's by the sound exegesis of God's word compared diligently "with" God's Word.

    And no, they cannot be right in this instance. God is not giving us a "literal" history lesson about Greece, Persia, and Rome, but a "spiritual" history lesson about a far more sinister spiritual rule. Christ is the prince of peace, what kingdom does He rule? Likewise, Satan is the Prince of this world, thus what kingdom does he rule? Their rules are not from particular physical nations or empires but from spiritual principalities. That's what many of you don't understand. Even though God has stated it in many diverse ways again and again and again. You still eschew the Spiritual nature of what God is speaking about.

    Ephesians 6:12
    • "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
    Whether we like it or not, God is here telling us that our battle is not against the power of empires. It is not even physical. It is not even political. It is not against physical nations. Rather, it is against a "spiritual principality, spiritual power, and spiritual wickedness."

    Everyone reads these things but few take it to heart.

    Colossians 2:14-15
    • "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
    • And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."
    These Principalities and powers that Christ spoiled were not Rome. It was not Greece. It was not Persia. But it was spiritual "Egypt" and spiritual principalities and rulers of the darkness of this world. The Christian must take his mind off the nations of this world and think about a nation from above and just how it is being attacked. Take our eyes off this world and put them on Christ.

    The beast, as God defined it, is the body of wicked men ruled by Satan. Selah!

    Satan is thee beast, ruling through men, who are as beasts. Just as Satan is thee antichrist, ruling in many antichrists, which are men. There is a principle here that you are missing in your misinterpretation of scripture. Why does God call wicked men serpents, and calls Satan the serpent? Why is Christ called the Star, and we, His servants, called stars? The point I am making is that just because some people cannot recognize Satan as the beast, and natural or carnal man as a beast, doesn't mean God doesn't.

    1st Corinthians 15:32
    • "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."
    Did he wrestle with a bear, spar with a lion or tangle with a leopard? No, his fight was with men who were "as beasts" as a lion, bear and leopard! In other words, they were without moral values, judgment, knowledge or wisdom.

    If I might digress for a minute. What separates man from the dumb beasts of the field is his reasoning and intelligence. Man was created in the image or likeness of God so that (unlike dumb beasts) man was instilled with a certain intellect, reason and the inherent knowledge of His creator. Beasts have no reasoning, they have no knowledge, and they are not sensible. God often contrasts man with beast and even labels man a beast himself when he acts foolishly or without reasoning, or in a ravenous or vicious way. God even goes so far as to speak of man as a beast when illustrating man as unknowledgeable or simple (stupid, if you will). So the symbolism of a beast I believe is to illustrate man under the influence of Satan acting without reason or knowledge, or when lacking in wisdom and understanding, as one acting foolishly. Look at King David who admitted:

    Psalms 73:22
    • "So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee."
    Apparently, God thinks the foolish and ignorant man "IS" as a beast.

    Now, You think it ridiculous that an image in Daniel 7 of four beasts, one looking like a lion with wings, one like a bear and another as a leopard could symbolize the rule of Satan throughout earth history? hmmmmmmmm! Then let me ask you "pointedly" if you also think it ridiculous that in Revelation a very similar image of four living creatures, with wings, one creature like a lion, another like a calf, another with a face as a man, and the fourth like a flying eagle, could be symbolic of the rule of Christ?

    You see it's not strange or ridiculous at all. Christ is the eternal promise of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Christ is the calf or Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, Christ is the Man who would take away the sins of the world, and Christ is the eagle, the protector of all His people under His wings. This type of interpretation is not Ridiculous at all.

    ...Selah!

    Likewise with four beasts of Daniel 7. In case you haven't learned yet, scripture interprets scripture, not man, not history books, not a popular opinion, and most certainly not Church tradition (though I readily admit, most Christians today may think so). Satan is the spirit and rule that contrasts the Spirit and Rule of God. He is the pseudo-Christ, the antithesis of God. So it is not only "not ridiculous," and, not only plausible, but these contrasting four creatures and four beasts reveal the truth of it.

    The Bible is its own interpreter. Is not the waters that bring life contrasted with the poisons that bring death? Is not the lamb contrasted with the wolf? Is not the good tree contrasted with the bad tree? Israel with Israel, children with children, sacrifice with sacrifice? So no, it's not ridiculous, it's exactly what we would expect if we have been studying the scriptures and know the consistency of God in His perfect design, cryptic imagery, and Biblical harmony. The symbolism isn't new or different, only the meaning is. No, it's not odd that God's Kingdom construct is symbolized by four living creatures, a Lion, a Lamb a Man and Eagle's wings, and Satan's kingdom construct is symbolized by four beasts, a Lion with wings, and Bear and a leopard. It's not an odd interpretation at all, it's in harmony with the interpretations seen throughout the whole Bible. That the wind of heaven brought these four is not odd either, as it illustrates God's immutible sovereignty over even this. God sends these four beast, which are DEFINITELY not four nations or empires like you thought. Please consider wisely:

    Hosea 13:7-9
    • "Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
    • I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
    • Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help."
    God will be unto them "AS" the Lion, the Leopard and the Bear, and come against Israel. Sound familiar, humm?

    Selah!

    But, as I say, it's Spiritually discerned. Only the wise will understand that all is not as it seems. It is foolish who mook things they do not understand and go out and play with newspaper eschatology.
     
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  2. Hammster

    Hammster I am the wretch in the song. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Just so I’m clear, if anyone disagrees with you it’s because they are unwise and cannot spiritually discern as you have?
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    ...and the little horn is ?
     
  4. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Based on what I have observed here, yeah. I can testify to that. I see that you are a staff and based on your post history, you did not really get involved with any discussion on this Estatology forum, so why do you ask me here? Say, as a staff yourself, do you think every member of Christian forums has a spirit of truth, honestly?

    Anyway, as I said, the "where" we get this is in the divinely inspired infallible word of God. The natural man--that is to say, those of the flesh who look to worldly definitions to define the Spiritual things of the workings of God inevitably miss the mark. The spirit of the world cannot interpret the kingdom, only the Spirit of God can. In other words, these truths are Spiritually discerned or discovered. That's what the word of God said, not elitist theologians. For example, when Christ healed the insane man and the Devil fled from him (Luke 8:35), the divine truth of this is "Spiritually Discerned." That means not all will receive that this was a "representation" of the deeper spiritual truth concerning the mental unwellness of man, and his being put in his right amind by the doctor called Jesus. When Christ healed the Lazarus and made him rise from the dead, it is "Spiritually Discerned" that this was a "representation" of the deeper "Spiritual Truth" concerning mankind's spiritual resurrection from the dead in Christ. When Christ healed the blind man so that for the first time he could see, it is "Spiritually Perceived" that this was a "representation' of the deeper Spiritual truth of mankind's condition of spiritual blindness before Christ heals him. And so on and so forth. Likewise, with understanding God's prophecies in His Word on this Eschatology forum. We can only bear testimony to these truths and the Spirit will (or will not) reveal if they are true. Frankly, if someone doesn't see this in their Bible, it "could be" because they understand things in the spirit of the world or in the spirit of the flesh, and not in the Spirit of truth. For example, they come up with assumptions, speculations, re-interpret, etc. I would seek and pray for God's wisdom to replace the wisdom of man concerning these things. Again I quoted:

    1st Corinthians 2:12-14
    • "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    • Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    • But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
    Foolishness or the truth, it all depends upon what spirit we abide in. The spirit of this world or of the world to come.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  5. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What do you think? I have explained to you with Scripture, thousands of times on other threads, concerning God's definition for the horn in Scripture. You knew the answer. And I have explained what little horn is before. You figure it out.

    Besides, I started this thread that focuses on the meaning of the beasts, not the horns. I did not quote Scripture or discussed about their heads, wings, or horns. Yet you come here to ask me a rhetoric question, "What is the Little Horn?"

    Like...seriously? Did you really read my OP to understand what I am trying to say about the beast, especially with the Scripture I quoted? Were you listening or you just ignore it and demand me to explain little horn to you...again? The Lord judges.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  6. Hammster

    Hammster I am the wretch in the song. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Why can’t I believe other's testimonies? I’m sure they are just as sincere, and have studied as you have.
     
  7. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I did not say that you can't. We are to examine doctrines (including mine) dealing with eschatology in the light of Scripture, agreed?

    Really? Every one of them? Even the false prophets and teachers are sincere thinking they are of Christ and have studied the Gospel, too. The point is they do not have the understanding because they do not have the spirit of Truth. That is why Christ told us to test their spirits, whether they have spirit of truth or spirit of the flesh.

    1 John 4:1 KJV
    [1] Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    And did you ever wondered why Christ said this:

    Matthew 24:15 KJV
    [15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

    Not everyone who reads this verse will understand just because they are "sincere." Only those who are given to understand by the Holy Spirit. Selah.
     
  8. Hammster

    Hammster I am the wretch in the song. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    How do I know that you have the spirit of truth?
     
  9. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Didn't I just give you an instruction? Read again.
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What I have been asking from you is a chart(s) showing how all the interpretations you are claiming - fit together on timeline - because there are timeframes involved, such as the time, times, half time in Daniel 7:25.

    You take words used in scripture, extract them - then create your own bible dictionary for those words. But anyone trying to piece those definitions together in the context of a chapter with other verses in the chapter is a resultant that make no sense.

    Applying your rationale Daniel 7 those beasts ares 4 natural men, out of one them comes a little horn - which you say horn is power. Basically you are changing the bible verses - word by word.
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster I am the wretch in the song. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Yes you did. But you didn’t answer the question.
     
  12. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I understand. I have some charts made for my website. I am not going to share these here at the moment.

    God's dictionary based on HIS WORD. Not my own.

    Says a natural man who did not compare Scripture with Scripture on his own posts.

    Facepalm. See...you do not have the understanding on what I am saying but that is okay. Moving on. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  13. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As the Lord as my witness, I did. You need to examine their testimonies, teachings, "speculations," or doctrines in light of Scripture yourself to determine if its biblical truth. What part of this do you not understand? And I even quoted a Scripture for us to test their spirit. If you won't receive this as an answer, then meditate on this with God yourself, or go see with your pastor.

    Case closed.

    Now, anything else?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  14. Hammster

    Hammster I am the wretch in the song. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    The problem is that I’m trying to test your spirit, but you won’t answer my questions. How do I know you have the spirit of truth?
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Your opening post in this thread is a recycle of a post you made at another website in 2006. You haven't had enough time to perfect your charts yet?
     
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  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    By their fruits you shall know them. Matthew 7:16-20. Which to me, a good indicator in a forum of this type is take a look at how the poster interacts with other posters.
     
  17. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    [Chuckle.] Guess you did not read the update, haven't you? What did I say? :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  18. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    :)
     
  19. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You heard me. Read again.
     
  20. Hammster

    Hammster I am the wretch in the song. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I heard you. And I’m still waiting.
     
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