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Limited Atonement Refuted

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Robert Pate, Jul 6, 2010.

  1. Robert Pate

    Robert Pate Guest

    +0

    Jesus Christ as the new Adam and representative of the human race has reconciled the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

    When Christ died on the cross the veil of the temple that covered the "Holy of Holies" was torn from the top to the bottom by God. This signified the end of the Jewish religion and the law.

    When Christ died all of humanity died with him. God does not re-habilitate lost humanity instead he puts it to death, Romans 6:6.

    Our humanity was in Christ when he lived. Romans 5:10.
    Our humanity was in Christ when he died. Romans 6:8.
    Our humanity was in Christ when he arose. Romans 6:5.
    Our humanity is in Christ in heaven. Colossians 3:1.

    In Jesus Christ you have been made righteous, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

    No one needs to be predestinated. This salvation is God's great free gift to humanity. Romans 5:15-18. It is available to all who want it. "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved," Romans 10:13.
     
  2. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

    +39
    Calvinist
    The objects of Christ Death are a chosen people

    Both the Old and New Testaments proclaim that Christ is to die for and thus redeem His own people Isaiah 53:8; Matthew 1:21

    Though all men are created by God, they are not accounted on that ground as belonging to His redeemed children.

    Christ does not redeem all universally but He universally chooses people from out of “every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” worldwide Revelation 5:9.

    These are God’s covenant people of whom He said “They shall be my people, and I will be their God” Jeremiah 11:4

    Isa 53:

    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    Matt 1:

    21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    Gods people are those He foreknew rom 11:

    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew

    Those God forknew are the elect or chosen according to the foreknowledge of God 1 pet 1:

    1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

    2Elect [chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
     
  3. Robert Pate

    Robert Pate Guest

    +0

    You are implying that God does not love all people which is a denial of John 3:16, John 1:29, John 4:42, John 6:33, John 1:9, 2 Corinthians 5:14, 1 Timothy 1:15, 1 Timothy 2:5-6, Hebrews 2:9, Hebrews 10:10, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:14.

    God's people are all that he has given life to.

    The idea that God gives life so that he can condemn them to hell is an insult to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

    Salvation has been provided for all who want it. This is why the scripture says..."Whosoever that calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13.
     
  4. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

    +39
    Calvinist
    pate:

    The God I serve does not Love everyone in the world, but only some, which is demonstrated by rom 9:

    13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
     
  5. Ryan Collins

    Ryan Collins God is Jealous.

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    So are you implying that you serve a different God from Arminians? And are you going to address the Scripture he posted? In case you missed them, here they are: John 3:16, John 1:29, John 4:42, John 6:33, John 1:9, 2 Corinthians 5:14, 1 Timothy 1:15, 1 Timothy 2:5-6, Hebrews 2:9, Hebrews 10:10, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:14.
     
  6. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

    +39
    Calvinist
    Scripture is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ was to be a Saviour only to a certain people, and not everyone without exception.

    We have such verses as Matt 1:

    21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    Not all people are His people, i.e the devils children are not His people.

    Paul declares as the apostle to the gentiles, that God hath raised up a Saviour unto who ?

    acts 13:

    23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    later in this very sermon the gentiles wanted to hear these very words again next sabbath ! vs

    42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

    Thats because the Israel Paul was speaking of was comprised of both jews and gentiles, the spiritual seed of Abraham. see gal 3:29

    Now lets look at a OT scripture that will shed light on who Jesus Christ was born to be a Saviour to, in light of Matt 1:21 !

    Isa 9:

    6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Now who is the us in this verse ? It should be no doubt that the Child born, the Son given is The Lord Jesus Christ, so who is meant by us ?

    Was the writer meaning the entire world without exception, to include the philistines, the amakelites and on and on ?

    Isaiah is writing to the Israelites, the chosen people of God, and not to all the other pagan nations around the jews.

    National Israel was a Type of Spiritual Israel, which is in existence today, and was then also.

    Thats why Paul wrote rom 9:

    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    I believe that all Gods children who are chosen in Christ before the foundation, unto life eternal, are members of the Spiritual Israel.

    Those who are True Israelites or Jews who are included in the pronoun us of Isa 9:6

    If one becomes a believer in Christ they were included in the us of Isa 9:6.

    Isaiah did not write to the entire generation of men, but unto us, a child is born, meaning He is born unto a specific people, the seed of Abraham:

    heb 2:

    16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    His spiritual brethren and children heb 2:

    14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

    He was born to the virgin Mary, a women of a chosen people and even then, it was announced to her that He shall save His people from their sins ! Which was a chosen people !

    Notice to in Isa 9 6, the Son is given, not offered, He is not subject to being offered to be accepted or rejected by ones He is given to

    He is born into all those He was given to, He becomes Christ in you the hope of Glory, thats who the us is in isa 9:6.

    So the Savior was born to and given to a definite chosen people !
     
  7. Shulamite

    Shulamite My Bridegroom suffered this for ME

    +114
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    Yes, this has been revealed to me as well.

    "He loved His own, who were in the world."
    "I pray not for the world, but for those YOU gave Me."

    Jesus loved His own chosen.... Jesus prayed not for everyone in the world, but for those the Father gave Him.... the chosen.
     
  8. Ryan Collins

    Ryan Collins God is Jealous.

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    You are correct. Not all people are His people because there will be those who willingly reject Christ as Savior.

    And so Jesus died for both Jew and Gentile alike. Where does your election come into this? Both peoples are able to come to salvation.
     
  9. Ryan Collins

    Ryan Collins God is Jealous.

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    John 3:16 explicitly says that God loved the world which was the reason he sent his Son into the world. It does not say, "For God so loved the world of his elect chosen people..."
     
  10. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

    +39
    Calvinist


    Yes, but it does not say God Loved everyone in the world in Jn 3 16
     
  11. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

    +39
    Calvinist
    ryan:



    Thats has not nothing to do with what Jesus shall do, He shall save His people from their sins, which rejection of Him is one of those sins He saves them from !
     
  12. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

    +39
    Calvinist
    The jew and gentile alike are a chosen people, Israel. He is a Saviour unto Israel.

    all people in the world dont belong to Gods Israel.
     
  13. Ryan Collins

    Ryan Collins God is Jealous.

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    It says, "For God so loved the world..." It doesn't say that God loved the world minus some people. The world encompasses all. When you speak of the world, do you mean a select few or a portion of the world. For instance, when I say that Rush was the greatest rock band in the world. I am not saying that Rush is the greatest rock band of not the whole world but a small portion of it. No, I am saying they are the greatest rock band in the world. In this verse, it is obvious that the author is writing to encompass all inhabitants of the world, the universe, not a select portion of the world. Why would the author use the word "world" if he was implying a small chosen few?
     
  14. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

    +39
    Calvinist
    I know, but it does not say that God loved everyone in the world.
     
  15. AMR

    AMR Presbyterian (PCA) - Bona Fide Reformed

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    This is not a new observation without an answer:

    John 3:16, A Brief Exegetical Study

    AMR
     
  16. Ryan Collins

    Ryan Collins God is Jealous.

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    I could just as easily post a link to a site that has an exegetical study that supports my view, but I won't. This argument is a lost cause...not one person will change their mind.
     
  17. Shulamite

    Shulamite My Bridegroom suffered this for ME

    +114
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    Exactly, an elected person is not able to reject Jesus. It's not possible. One cannot be chosen and predestined to salvation and then reject Him.... "He forever saved those that come to Him.." King James Bible
    Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:25
     
  18. anthony55

    anthony55 Well-Known Member

    +39
    Calvinist
    Jesus Christ saves His People from their sins, meaning He saves them from unbelief and their enmity towards Him and His Holy Gospel.

    This is so vividly Illustrated for us in the conversion of saul of tarsus. Who can deny that he at first rejected and hated Christ and the saints of God !

    Paul testifies that while doing those things against Christ He was an unbeliever 1 Tim 1:

    13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

    But our [ the chosen ones] unbelief does not thwart Gods saving purpose for us, regardless of Paul's unbelief, he had before the foundation been chosen to be a vessel of God for the preaching of the gospel acts 9:

    15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

    Jesus did not just then decide that Paul was a chosen vessel unto Him.

    Paul's works of ministry were ordained beforehand eph 2:

    10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    And God does not before ordain anything in time, but His counsels and decrees are from old.

    So, now that it was time for Paul to fulfill his work for the Lord, He must become a believer. And so God bestowed grace upon Him with Faith and Love for Christ, vs 14

    14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

    Paul was enabled to believe on Christ through Grace that was abundant to him.

    Thats why Paul can say some believe by or through grace acts 18:

    27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace

    And God has given us Paul's conversion experience here, that it may serve us as an example, on How all the elect come to believe unto everlasting life vs

    16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    Paul as an elect of God, chosen in Christ before the foundation, having already been ordained unto good works of ministry and apostleship before, and in unbelief, God shows Him mercy and changes his unbelief into Faith, and his hatred of Christ into Love.

    and Finally, Paul says in light of this tremendous testimony, that Christ came to save [ not to possibly save] sinners, of which he was chief. 1 tim 1:

    15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

    He came to save sinners [as himself] who were ignorant and in unbelief vs


    13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

    So, if one dies in unbelief today, or Christ comes back and you are still in unbelief, it means that Christ did not come to save you in the first place, because if He did, He would save you , along with your other sins, from unbelief !

    Thats Gospel.
     
  19. Shulamite

    Shulamite My Bridegroom suffered this for ME

    +114
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    Yes, that's gospel.... :amen:
     
  20. holyrokker

    holyrokker Contributor

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    That's because of presuming certain ideas to be true, then explaining Scriptures based upon those definitions.

    It's not a proper way to formulate opinion on doctrine.
     
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