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life sciences and God's living word

Discussion in 'Creationism' started by mark kennedy, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    I've been posting he well over ten years now, creationism has been my biggest area of interest. Over the years Ive come to realize the doctrine of creation and natural science are not in conflict, they are disciplines focused on two different things. Science is a methodology so we are used to thinking of it as a system but it's actually an epistomology a theory of knowledge), specifically focused on natural phenomenon. The most significant of all the sciences is genetics, originating in the mid-nineteenth century from a scientit, scholar searching for part to high breeds, G. Mendel, the father of modern genetics.statrting at the dawn of the 20th century, the rediscovery of his one published paper was the emergence of chromosome theory. 25 years the emerging science, genetics was about to be born. Molecular biology could tell you the basic elements of DNA and genetics had learned how to track and manipulate the effects (traits). What the didn't have was was fear cause and effect relationship between the two. Then starts the March to the DNA model that would be unveiled 25 years later.

    Now if you managed to wade through my little narrative you might wonder what on earth this has to do with Creation. Creation week is a clear narrative from the opening chapter of Genesis. At the heart of the emphasis is on God creating Adam and Eve, after creatine the universe described in absolute terms and the rest of living creatures in all their vast array. One has to wonder how from the originally created kinds we got such a highly diverse spread acroos the face of the earth, quite simply they adapted, in short they evolved.

    This is not an invitation to a debate, I don't mind one mind you, this is intended to be thought provoking. I have been a Creationist for some time and not once have I felt there was some conflict between science and faith, they are just too different ways of understanding the World around us and God place in the living history of our world.

    The resolution as I understand it must be developed by resolving the differences between science and Scripture is how we view history.

    Your thoughts...

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
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  2. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    There is no conflict between special creation and science
    ....becasue natural science uses evidence to promote faith
    in the natural order without God's intervention and Special
    Creation assumes that God sidestepped natural law, as with
    all the other recognized miracles. So the two have no overlap.
    Miracles, including list of biblical miracles
     
  3. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    Question do you believe in a literal seven day(evening and morning) creation week?
     
  4. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Miracles are not opposed to the natural order, just beyond the reach of natural science. Special creation happens at the point of origin, it's not opposed to the natural order, it's the source of it. When Jesus stalled the storm after walking on the water, the Apostels wondering who is this who tells the elements what to do and they obey. Nature is subordinate to God, not the other way atound, we have seen this throughout redemptive history. God doing what only God can do.
     
  5. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Yes, I have said that the time of the original creation is irrelavat to the doctrine of creation. All we know about the creation of the heavens and the earth is that it was I'm the beginning'. Creation week on the other hand are 6 literal days and inextricably linked to the geneaologies and confirmed in the New Testament.

    To be honest I some times wonder if God has done this before or will do it again. It is a big universe. Perhaps the celebration when God created life here will be joined by us one day. That is after we are raised and God creates a new heavens and a new earth at the end of the age. Just a thought.

    Grace and pwace,
    Mark
     
  6. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    Yes he has
    Job 1:6-7King James Version (KJV)
    6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

    7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

    notice he claimed the earth as his domain

    God called a council of the Sons of God and Satan represented the earth as Adam had relinquished his kingship over it.
    The other Sons of GOD are representatives of unfallen other worlds.
     
  7. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    God doing what only God can do is not natural or scientific.

    Healing the lame is not natural. Walking on water is not natural.
    Turning water to wine is not natural. If man cannot recreate
    an action, then it is not a natural process.




    1. CREATION of the universe, including plants, animals and humans (Genesis 1-2)

    2. WORLDWIDE FLOOD EVENT—destruction of the entire world by a divine Flood and the miraculous preservation of 8 righteous people and representative land-dwelling, air-breathing animals in the Ark. (Genesis 7-8)

      View Flood and Babel movie sequence from The HOPE

    3. CONFUSION OF LANGUAGES (tongues) at Babel (Genesis 11:1-9)—a world of one language instantly transformed into a world of many languages

    4. SINFUL CITIES DESTROYED—destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24)

    5. SUPERNATURAL DEATH—Lot’s wife turned into a “pillar of salt” (Genesis 19:26)

    6. SUPERNATURAL CONCEPTION—Isaac conceived by very elderly Sarah and 100 year old Abraham at Gerar (Genesis 21:1)

      ELDERLY NURSING MOTHER—Sarah was also able to naturally nurse baby Isaac. (Genesis 21:7)

      WATER TURNED TO BLOOD—Water everywhere became BLOOD. The fish died, and the river stank. (Exodus 7:14-25

    7. FROG PLAGUE—God suddenly covered the land of Egypt with FROGS, and later supernaturally killed them, leaving them to make Egypt again stink (Exodus 8:2-14; Psalms 78:45; 105:30)

    8. LICE PLAGUE—“All the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt.” (Exodus 8:17-18)

    9. FLIES—God sent “grievous” swarms of flies upon all the people and houses of Egypt, covering even the ground, except in the land of Goshen (where the Israelites dwelled fly-free). (Exodus 8:20-24)

    10. MURRAIN suddenly killed Egypt’s cattle (Exodus 9:3-6)

    11. BOILS AND BLAINS—The sixth plague, of “boils and blains,” like the third, was sent without warning (Ex.9:8-12). It is called (Deuteronomy 28:27) “the botch of Egypt,” King James Version; but in Revised King James Version, “the boilof Egypt.” “The magicians could not stand before Moses” because of it.

    12. HAIL WITH FIRE AND THUNDER (Exodus 9:13-33). Warning was given of its coming. (Compare Psalms 18:13; 105:32-33).

    13. LOCUSTS—The plague of locusts, which covered all of Egypt, so that the land was darkened with them (Exodus 10:12-15). The Hebrew name of this insect, arbeh, points to the “multitudinous” character of this visitation. Warning was given before this plague came. Again, the nearby land of Goshen was spared.

    14. LOCALIZED DEEP DARKNESS—The plague (the ninth) of darkness in Egypt (Exodus 10:21) is described as darkness “which may be felt.” It covered “all the land of Egypt,” so that “they saw not one another.” It did not extend to the land of Goshen (verse 23).

    15. DEATH OF ALL FIRST-BORN—people and beasts, struck by an angel of death in a single night / Israelite first-borns spared, if blood was painted around their door. (Exodus 11:1-8; 12:29-30)


    16. BURNING BUSH not consumed (Exodus 3:3)

    17. CLOUD miracles—indicating God’s presence (Ex. 19:9; 29:42-43; 40:34-35; 1 Kings 8:10; 2 Chr. 5:14; Ezek. 43:4) / Pillar cloud (glory-cloud) which led the Israelites in the wilderness and rested on the ark of the covenant (Ex. 13:21-22; 33:9-10; 40:36). Also see: Shechinah.
    18. SNAKE—Aaron’s rod changed into a serpent (Exodus 7:10-12)

    19. RED SEA DIVIDED at just the right moment; the nation of Israel passes through on DRY GROUND. The sea then violently consumes the Egyptian army. (See: Passage of Red Sea) (Exodus 14:21-31)

    20. DRINKING WATER FIXED—Bitter waters of Marah sweetened (Exodus 15:23-25)

    21. MANNA sent daily to feed the Israelites, except on the Sabbath (Exodus 16:14-35)

    22. WATER from the rock at Rephidim (Exodus 17:5-7)

    23. Nadab and Abihu consumed for offering “strange fire” (Leviticus 10:1-2)

    24. Complainers consumed by FIRE at Taberah / the destruction stopped in response to Moses’ prayer (Numbers 11:1-3)

    25. EARTH OPENS AND SWALLOWS Korah and his company. (Numbers 16:32-34)

    26. “There came out a FIRE from the LORD, and consumed” 250 particular men fleeing the earth swallowing at Kadesh (Numbers 16:35-45)

    27. PLAGUE—at Kadesh almost instantly killing 14,700, and stopped by Moses command Aaron to run with a incense censer among the people and “make an atonement for them” (Numbers 16:46-50)

    28. AARON’S ROD “brought forth buds, and bloomed blossoms, and yielded almonds” at Kadesh (Numbers 17:1-11)

    29. WATER PROVIDED IN DESERT—from the rock, after smitten twice by Moses, in the desert of Zin (Numbers 20:7-11)

    30. “The Lord sent FIERY SERPENTS among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.” (Numbers 21:6)

    31. BRASS SERPENT on a pole in the desert of Zin—“if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.” (Numbers 21:8-9)

    32. The JORDAN DIVIDED, so that Israel passed over dryshod near the city of Adam (Joshua 3:14-17)

    33. The WALLS OF JERICHO fall down at God’s command, after the Israelites prove their faith in Him (Joshua 6:6-20)

    https://christiananswers.net/dictionary/miracle.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  8. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Miracles are God doing what only God can do, that's kind of the point. This comes right down to God knowing the end from.the beginning. In the beginning the is God doing what only God can do. At the end of the age you will have God doing what only God can do. In the middle, usually for redemptive history, God intervenes. To us it seems supernatural but for God it's perfectly natural. Yes, that is beyond science since it is expressly designed to investigate natural phenomenon, that is not the litmus test for truth or reality, it just underscores the limits of natural science.
     
  9. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    So then Jesus walking on water is not a natural event so it is a supernatural event
    and not a natural event and not a scientific or natural phenomenon. So there
    is no overlap between miracles and nature. So there is no conflict.
     
  10. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    The result of creation week was a perfect result. Far different from our fallen cosmos
    where we now live and toil.
     
  11. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Obviously it was a miracle, that was more or less the whole point of it. When I'm discussing some apparent problem between science and faith I try to point out that somethings are beyond the reach of empirical testing. Jesus walking on water certainly qualifies, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. While I've explored the whole creation vs. evolution issues I have been continually side tracked learning the history and philosophy of natural science. It's been fascinating and never have I seen a real conflict between the doctrine of creation and the life sciences. Genetics is showing us how life works, not how it originated, the subject of origins is out of reach for empirical science, so is God as a matter of fact. Just consider this a minute, I will try not to belabor the point:

    metaphysics
    1. the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space.
    mid 16th century: representing medieval Latin metaphysica (neuter plural), based on Greek ta meta ta phusika ‘the things after the Physics,’ referring to the sequence of Aristotle's works: the title came to denote the branch of study treated in the books, later interpreted as meaning ‘the science of things transcending what is physical or natural.’
    Notice it says, 'first principles of things', that's important to the subject of origins. You and I would be more theologically oriented, I doubt I will get much of an argument from you about God being the first cause or that God transcends the created universe. Nature is subordinate to God. When Jesus walked on water the Apostles were talking among themselves and said. "What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!" (Matt. 8:27).

    People right there experiencing a miracle where confused. When Jesus was raised, early on, the Apostles didn't really believe it. Both Abraham and Sarah when they heard they would have a son, laughed, that's why when Isaac was born he was named Isaac, when means she laughs. Faith doesn't come to us a friend but as a stranger, sometimes even an intruder. It should make perfect sense to us as believers that those engaged in exploring the natural world have a tough time accepting, or even considering, that the explanation for life is that God performed a series of astonishing miracles. We are benefactors of grace and we are required to share God's compassion with others because without it we are utterly lost.

    All I'm saying is that science is limited to natural phenomenon, when Jesus walks on water or promises something so incredible that our natural mind rejects it as absurd. What gets us through it is that we believe, the one who makes the promise is faithful:

    By faith Sarah, even though she was barren and beyond the opportune age, was enabled to conceive a child, because she considered Him faithful who had promised. (Heb. 11:11)
    The nation of Israel only exists because God kept that promise. I am not opposed to the life sciences, I have been fascinated with them for years. In the OP I clumsily describe what I believe was the birth of a science, something that should be celebrated and appreciated for the monumental accomplishment that it was. When taken in it's proper context we can learn to appreciate the work of scientists without letting secular scientists, well meaning as they might be, tend to reject the doctrine of creation. But faith comes to us as a stranger, even sometimes as an intruder, how much more so those who spend so much time focusing exclusively on natural phenomenon.

    God, whose law it is
    that he who learns must suffer.
    And even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget
    falls drop by drop upon the heart,
    and in our own despite, against our will,
    comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. (Aeschylus, 525 BC – 456 BC)​

    Even in antiquity a pagan playwright struggled to understand God and how he fits into our lives and our world. Don't you?

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  12. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

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    You, sir, are a genius. Not God level genius, but a genius nevertheless. ;-)
     
  13. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Wow, I don't get a lot of flattering responses on this subject, thank you. The hardest part of learning this stuff wasn't brain power but enduring the incessant trolling. This was never a contest between religion and science, they actually pay very little attention to one another. There is wisdom in both, we do well to understand that while they look in two different directions, the reasoning has a lot in common.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  14. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

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    NP, my pleasure bro.
     
  15. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

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    I know, I know. I actually hack for a living (good guy, obvoiously, for the government US), so well acquainted with true troll jack oxx's (excuse my french ;-) )
     
  16. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Wow sounds like interesting work, I appreciate you taking an interest in the subject. It might interest you to know what when they research something as big as a genome they use algorithms. A virus is kind of like a hacker, in rare instances they can even hack into the germline, the early genome of embryos. The genome has guys like you trying to edit these genomic tollers out. They do a pretty good job most of the time but sometimes these insidious things get in anyway. If you decide to take more then a casual interest I'd be interested what you think of this:

    SPECTER: CRISPR is actually an ancient bacterial defense system. It's like an immune system for bacteria, which is surprising because for a long time, scientists didn't think bacteria had adaptive immune systems. But in 1987, some Japanese scientists were looking for something in DNA, and they saw this weird group of nucleotides, pieces of DNA. They had no idea what they were doing and what they meant and what their function was. And in a piece they published in The Journal of Bacteriology, the last sentence literally was, and we saw this weird, crazy group of nucleotides, and we have no idea what they're doing there. And that was that. And that was not for a very long time.(New Gene-Editing Techniques Hold the Promise Of Altering The Fundamentals Of Life. NPR)
    Apparently this defense system made a great gene editing tool. I thought maybe you could relate. :)

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
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