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Life is a death sentence: Predestination vs Freewill

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by theoneinsidethezero, Oct 27, 2017.

  1. theoneinsidethezero

    theoneinsidethezero LAMENT - MENTAL

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    Up until about a month ago I had always struggled with this age old debate but now would like to tell you what I have discovered in my studies to resolve it.

    As predestination goes I think we would all agree that being born into this world is a death sentence and I would say the Bible in ecc. would even back that up when it says "Death is the destiny of every man the living should take this to heart." That said we are all predestined to die in some way, fashion or form it is all just a matter of when. Who can really argue that no matter what religion you are?

    The larger question is do we really have freewill to do anything about it?

    To try and answer that let me ask you a few questions:

    Can we read a book before it is written? No. Or watch a movie before it is filmed? No. Or play a game before it is designed? No. Clearly, the experience is created first and then we can experience it. So, in the case of our lives could we experience it before it was created? No. This means that our entire life experience could have been recorded somewhere ahead of time before we ever experienc
    ed a day of it! Hence the reason in the beginning was "the word" and that Jesus is the "author" of salvation! And some might say that’s impossible. We write our own destiny by making our own choices out of our own free will.

    While that sounds great consider the following logic. If we wrote our own story why can’t we remember what we wrote about tomorrow? Does not the author of a book know what events will happen on the next page? Or have we forgotten the future?


    The reason we can’t remember our future is because we didn’t write it? And if we didn’t write the future does it not follow that we are not writing our present either but are in fact merely experiencing what once was the future? It appears our entire future was written first, then we experienced it in the present and only remembered it as the past.

    Confirmation of this truth can be seen in scripture in Jude 1:4:
    For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago (in the past) have secretly slipped in among you (in the present).

    See it was written by the word or recorded first and then the experience occurred for them. What is interesting about all this are the conclusions you can draw from it. I can certainly think of a few but would love to know what you think first.

    Thanks,
    Paul
     
  2. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Because we haven't WRITTEN IT YET.

    We live in the framework of time, ... and time only flows forward ...
     
  3. Winken

    Winken Jonah !!! Supporter

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    The Christian, one who is Spiritually birthed, is instantly secure and placed on THE pathway to living the life Jesus died to deliver to us. WE step off the pathway, HE never falters. Never. How do we live that life? In His Amazing Grace.
     
  4. theoneinsidethezero

    theoneinsidethezero LAMENT - MENTAL

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    Interesting thought. But consider this. As with the fact that in most cases computers can't read and write at the same time I would venture to say neither do we. We could never write enough fast enough to create any kind of meaningful experience for the future. Furthermore, if we are writing the story of our lives how do we control the circumstances around us and all the people who apparently are writing their own story?

    Now the Bible does say we reap what we sow right. Well, it sounds to me like we made a choice to know both Good and evil (sow) and experience death as a result through this thing we call life (reap). It seems freewill came first then predestination followed.

    What is interesting about all this is that it is not said that we are experiencing what the author of salvation wrote of us. It is incredibly free of the bondage of sin we all believe ourselves to be in. I would say God made a way for us to "experience" both good and evil without having to damn us to eternal fire for it. This post of mine also explains why the Bible can predict the future so accurately. It's because it is all one big story and we are just hot wired right into! Cool huh?
     
  5. theoneinsidethezero

    theoneinsidethezero LAMENT - MENTAL

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    Sounds great but I don't understand how this relates to my post. Can you elaborate?
     
  6. Winken

    Winken Jonah !!! Supporter

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    Read Post #4, then read Post #5 again.
     
  7. jacks

    jacks Er Victus Supporter

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    Hi Cipher, interesting idea about predestination. My question would be if all our existence (and I assume those of puppies, kittens and rocks for that matter) has already been written, what is the purpose of playing it out? Maybe your "play the game before it is designed" is the most apt metaphor? In other words the structure is set, but our actions within that structure can vary?
     
  8. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart Love is the Foundation of Truth

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    Yeah... this is a very high level of thinking. However, I see some flaws from information I have.

    In short, we have an internal transfigured body within ourselves. This is the body of light that the Apostles John, James, and Peter saw on the mountain.

    They saw the transfigured self of Moses, Elijah, and Jesus.

    This is the very same eternal body Paul talks about.

    Important detail: made of light.

    e=mc2...

    ie, so our inner, greater self can travel at and even beyond the speed of light.

    They live in the infinite aeon, with the ability to teleport and go forward or backwards in time.
     
  9. theoneinsidethezero

    theoneinsidethezero LAMENT - MENTAL

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    I don't have all the answers on all this or even totally agree with what I am saying. I just enjoy looking at it from all angles to try and gain new perspective on the truth of the matter as well as grow as a person from all of your reactions as iron sharpens iron. So thank you all for taking time to respond and even correct me if what I am saying is not right.

    You asked what is the purpose of playing life out if it is all predetermined after I got done saying freewill came first and predestination came after. I have to wonder something...What if life as we know it was your entire life flashing before your very eyes from beginning to end! And when that last page or scene of your life flashed before you we are met with the second death and have to start all over again. As if somehow in this thing called life it was absolutely critical that we be born again of the spirit to break that fall or we would be stuck in this cycle of death and die in our sins over and over again.

    And the Bible says "If only in this life we are to have hope in Christ" and Paul writes, "I die daily" and "Who can rescue me from this body of Death".

    Yes to all of your points we are all Death but that which lives within us is Life and Light shines in the darkness.

    And it is true that perhaps a video game is the best analogy of the mix of Freewill and predestination. Like a game of Halo on XBOX the perimeters and levels and outcome have been written in advance but the choices and time it takes to get there is up to us. Remember the verse in the Bible that says we can "Speed it's coming" well that might explain what is meant by that.

    Great reply! Thank you.
     
  10. theoneinsidethezero

    theoneinsidethezero LAMENT - MENTAL

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    Nicely stated! Paul writes of our bodies, "Who can rescue me from this body of death?" We are light in darkness and life in death. So true. It is my understanding that the outermost layer of our 7 layers of flesh is dead flesh and yet under all that is our lifeblood. Our bodies appear to be some kind of grave for our soul. And it would seem of high importance that we break free of it before we pass.

    Here is something interesting to ponder based on the title of this post. The moment we are conceived are we not in fact on a highway to the grave? I would almost like to say that we enter this life with a gravestone of our former name already here on Earth. It is just that we don't remember who we were in our previous life (if only in this life we are to have hope in Christ the Bible writes to us). We are all born in a state of forgetfulness. Hence why Jesus to strongly suggested that we "Remember the height from which we had fallen". What we call life seems to me to be a deep sleep which is probably why Jesus said if you do not wake up and the apostle Paul said "we will not all sleep"

    Get this fun fact and I'll let you go. At the beginning of Genesis it mentions that God put Adam into a deep sleep and took one of his ribs to form Eve. What is funny about this story is that the Bible makes no mention that God woke Adam up.

    Interesting things to consider huh?
     
  11. theoneinsidethezero

    theoneinsidethezero LAMENT - MENTAL

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    This sounds an awful lot like how I used to understand things so I throw no stones here. But you state that Christians are ones who are spiritually birthed and INSTANTLY secure and placed on the pathway to living the life Jesus died to deliver to us. I would challenge you to consider this:

    Many will come to me on that day and say did we not cast out demons in thy name and in thy name do many great works. And he will say apart from me you evil doers for I never knew you.

    You see the said truth is that many, many, many people in the Church will have it wrong in the end and will be found to have made authority the truth instead of truth the authority. He who finds his life will lose it. But he who loses his life for my sake will find it. If any one of you wishes to become wise let him become a fool so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world (man made religion) is foolishness in God's sight.

    This post makes it sound like the moment you believe in Christ it's all done. You are saved and going to heaven. Not so fast...where is heaven my friend? Luke 17:21 "The kingdom of heaven is WITHIN YOU" and according to Matt. 13:44 it is like "TREASURE BURIED IN A FIELD" and we are God's field.

    Believing the truth is only step one of a the transformation process. The real goal is knowing. Trust me I've been there.

    Consider this: If it is all as simple as you say why does Jesus "When you seek me you will find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you." The true Jesus you need to find is buried thoughout all scripture and needs to be unearthed until he rises again in your heart and mind (and Jesus was crucified at Galgotha the place of the SKULL).

    Let me put it to you this way and I'll wait for your response. Have you ever seen Jesus? No. Have you ever heard Jesus speak? No. Have you ever touched Jesus? No. And yet because we have read about him, seen all the images, statues and movies of him and heard his name from those around us we perceive him as human in the flesh.

    That is the beginning of wisdom. But the Bible calls us to leave the elementary teachings of Christ and go on to perfection not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death.

    So herein lies a great clue to find the other Jesus mentioned in the Bible that comes through revelation. When you look at yourself in a mirror do you believe the image reflecting back at you is you? Of course not. When you read the word "Jesus" is the image you see in the mirror of your minds eye real? Nope. It looks real but it is not.

    As with all the characters in the Bible they are there to help us understand the spiritual mysteries that lie within us. So when you first believe Christ you will see him as human and he appears to you in the flesh. But then he appears a second time only to those who "LOOK FOR HIM" body, heart and soul.

    Remember the flesh wars against the spirit and God is spirit and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Remember also not to be swayed by the image of the beast or the image the word puts forth in the mirror of your minds eye that is for reflection only.

    Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. (2 Cor. 5:16)

    Last:

    Consider personifying the characteristics of the operation of energy in matter (OEM), and visualizing them into images; images are better than thousands of words. Give these images names such as John, for what he would represent, and Mary, for what she would represent, and of course, throw in some historical places for reflection and so on - all under the lineage of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve, being the male and female faculty of the human mind (Genesis 5:1-2) Then weave all these places, names and images into stories, and then into metaphorical stories wrapped in a paradoxical allegory and present it as a parable and behold!, you have scripture. Scripture, when seen esoterically or spiritually, is nothing more than an explanation, in scientific format, of the creation of all things without contradiction.


    Hope that helps. Thanks for the reply!!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
  12. elliott95

    elliott95 JESUS PRAISER

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    I always liked John Searle's definition of free will.
    "I decide to lift up my arm and the damm thing goes up"

    Free will is a phenomenologically real experience for us.

    Maybe free will is an illusion.
    But then so would be the experience of an "I" be an illusion too.

    So as long as anyone maintains that it is valid to refer to oneself as "I", then free will is equally as valid.
     
  13. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart Love is the Foundation of Truth

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    Heheh, oh, I know who I was in my previous life. :) I have lived a few lives on this planet I can name.

    I had some manner of forgetfulness, but my guardian angel did enormous work to help me remember.

    guardian angel -->> one's true spiritual self, the "high self", the perfect body within


    Right now, yes, it remains night, and that is coming to an end soon. The thief came, while most slept. Jesus with his angels. And the kingdom was setup, undercover. :)

    Some saints, like you or me, we are as night owls. Insomniacs. Watchmen.

    The morningstar shone from east to west like lightning. But, who believed. Who was watching. Who kept the faith.

    That was the sixties and it shone well into the nineties. It is still up there, in the proverbial sky, but fewer see it now. It is so dim. As the sun will it rise.


    Sleep and death are intrinsically related.

    I take it that you recognize that, and so find amusement in the whole "eat this and you will die" story.

    These are extremely brilliant observations you are making.

    Do note, even if I might add or reject something, I am able to use your information, and contrast to my own... and not small treasures either, but mighty and most rare treasures of late and long ago.
     
  14. theoneinsidethezero

    theoneinsidethezero LAMENT - MENTAL

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    Wow! Super appreciate your insights and such kind words. So much of what you say is reflected in my own life too although it is slightly different. But thats not sad its fantastic. God gave all of us unique fingerprints for a reason so that we could all be different and have a unique view of him that no one else had but everyone would one day long to here. This brings to my mind an anology i came up with some time ago id like to share:

    The Bible says we are all made in the image of God. But as you look around at the people of the Earth no two images are the same. Much like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle they all have a unique image inprinted on them of there own unique perspective in the big picture or grand scheme of things. What is also interesting to note is no two pieces are shaped the same for if they were the puzzle would never come together and the neither would the mytery of God either. You see we all have our part to play in all this regardless of what religion you think sets you apart from the puzzle. And each piece is coming at the big picture from their own life experiences which explains their unique shape and image. To each piece truth is relative to where they fit in but when we all come together as one then the mystery of God is fulfilled and we will know absolute truth we will all know God from the least of us to the greatest.

    This explains perfectly why Jesus leaves 99 sheep to go back after the lost one!!!

    So my prayer to all of you is that God will reveal to you all the glory and wonder of who you are and what irreplacable uniqness you bring to that puzzle. Love you all.

    Love thy neighbor as thy self and my friends love your enemies. Why? Because we are all in this amazing puzzle we call life together!

    So rise and take your place until we all stand as one!

    Later!
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  15. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    We can talk about our future being predestined by God, but as soon as we say it is also future for God we are limiting God by time. God does and will talk about things being in the future but that is our future.

    Christians talk about: “God being outside of time”, which is not beyond the thinking of the atheist or agnostic since:

    For the last 100 years people have been trying to disprove “The Theory of Relativity” and yet nothing has disagreed with the theory and all experiments have supported relativity. If time is relative how relative would time be for God, who possible even created “time”?

    If God is not outside of time and there is an infinite amount of time before man is created, then man has not been created, since an infinite amount of time has not finished? (This suggests God would be outside of time.)

    There has also been hypothesizes with nothing being shown yet that if time is “warped”, there could be possible “wormholes” or something like a wormhole going between two different times.

    God could have his own sequencing of events, but God would not be limited by human time.

    It is difficult to think about God being “outside of our time” with no before or after for God, but this subject requires us to think.

    It should not be hard for you to imagine time being relative and warped since that is what science has been showing, so one way God could “know” everything is by God at the end of man’s time sending back the whole history of man (which includes all the free will choices man made [it is historic at that point]) to Himself at the beginning of time, so the God at the beginning of man’s time knows all man’s free will choices throughout time as purely historical events and not even God can change history.

    If God is outside of time He can know all there is to know, but that does not mean God knows that which cannot be known. As this would relate to man: At the same instant, God decides to make a human, for God; that being was born lived made some very limited sovereign free will choices, died and went to in heaven or hell (it is all history for God). If God does not decide to make a being (there is an infinite number of these) then God does not know what this non-ever to exist being did, since it did not do anything.

    So how does God know for certainty what man will do in the future and still allow man to make free will choices; seems to be a dilemma, since the “future” is set by God knowing the future? The “future” is only “future” as far as man is concerned, since the future is set by being pure “history” as far as God is concerned. God is not forcing or setting man’s “future” free will choices, but it is man himself setting the man’s future, by the free will choices man “did make” in the future (which is history for God).

    Try playing God for a minute: If you got information sent back to you in a wormhole from the future that told you perfectly the free will choice a person will make in China one hour from now and you had no way of contacting that person in the next hour, would that mean they did not make a free will choice because you perfectly knew their choice ahead of time?

    God operates in a similar fashion, but He could contact the person, but since He always does the best thing there is to do; there is no changing what He does/did.
     
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  16. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart Love is the Foundation of Truth

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    One major eyewitness I have had, has been of a transfiguration, and as probably most Christians visualize - and as is described in Revelation, the three gospels not John, Daniel - is our spiritual, eternal bodies are of light. A light more pure then what we see here on earth, one which simply says, 'from the far future and far past'.

    Likely, at this stage, many, if not all Christians have exactly such a body already deep within their selves. What they might call both their guardian angel (weird, I know), their highest self (toss out the New Agey baggage), and what? Is it the chrysalis or is the flesh. (Or, neither.)

    But, spelling it out, with a body of light, you transcend time.

    What all that means, I am not entirely sure yet. What I have observed is my inner self giving me important messages through my entire life. Messages which many have since come true, despite how specific and far fetched they have been. I am sure that is common.

    I really did not put this together until a few weeks ago, though I have long been a fan of physics.

    Physics, however, has disappointed me quite a bit in numerous areas. You know how the atheist filter is applied over so much.

    But, the latest enormous discovery has been of the "black hole at the beginning of time", which has been terrific for theological considerations.

    Recall, of God it is said, 'He lives in darkness too deep for either men or angels'.

    I think that is exactly what "we" (humans), have on our telescope.

    Regardless, possibilities, anyway.
     
  17. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart Love is the Foundation of Truth

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    Heh, I just came back about two days ago from a twelve day trip, to a secret place, where angels are. (Scary obscure and secure, on earth, but not really.)

    God has me take such trips every once and awhile. They are intense, and this one was more intense then any of the others before it.

    As usual, however, people old and new in my life come, showing they were not "people" as I thought they were, which helped answer, yet again, so many questions.

    The last really big and intense time was in 2010, seven years ago. This time, however, it was entirely "there", where I stayed with them for the entire time. (2010 was very lengthy and I saw them just during the day, though the two main ones I communicated with online. It was long distance, so I did not find myself with my family, but stayed in long term hotels.)

    Anyway, long story short, this time a lot of the message was how many people could appear so different then me, yet be me.

    Strange stuff. But, will probably communicate w you on email on this, if you wish to know more.

    A key juncture was when my wife brought me some much needed socks. I did not ask for a shirt, but she gave me one. I put it on, go out, and lo and behold, a main one so much like me was wearing it. He pointed it out. Putting it on, it was reddish, so I said to myself, "this is my Jesus tshirt". So, funny.
     
  18. theoneinsidethezero

    theoneinsidethezero LAMENT - MENTAL

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    Great thinking my friend and for fun consider this mind blowing verse of the Bible which I think ties perfectly to what you are saying in your post especially the quote in it noted above:

    Isaiah 43:10
    Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me

    The implications of what i have bolded there are mind blowing:
    1. "Before me" implies there was a time before God and that God had a beginning
    2. "God formed" implies God was created but by whom?
    3. "After me" implies God will see his end and that time exist after God
    4. God is not the creator of all things

    Questions arise such as how does God know there was a time before him?
    Who formed God?

    I could go on and on with this but will pause and come back to it later. Very interesting stuff though huh?
     
  19. theoneinsidethezero

    theoneinsidethezero LAMENT - MENTAL

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    I love this thinking. If God is light and light shines out of darkness where did darkness come from? And darkness was mentioned first in the creation story. 'He lives in darkness too deep for either men or angels' is a great pearl in the Bible I have never heard before. I love that about the Bible. Interesting stuff.
     
  20. theoneinsidethezero

    theoneinsidethezero LAMENT - MENTAL

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    I would like to say one more thing as it relates to all this thinking of predestination and free will. There are certainly more to predestination then just death. The Bible says "...that he destined for our glory before time began." It is really my hope that everyone has their day to shine in the span of eternity and when it is all said and done all the radiance of all we are ushers in the one behind it all. I'm way excited for the days to come. So much to be revealed and then we will all know the truth from the least of us to the greatest. Hang in there. The best is yet to come!
     
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