Life begin @ conception????

[Adventist Dissident]

Indeed, but not only that...

The twins Jacob and Esau were said to be trying to crush each other to pieces* in the womb so strongly that Rebecca went to GOD about it.

*The word used actually is "to crush each other to pieces" but those dedicated to the tabula rasa of the newly conceived prefered to disrupt the sanctity of the scripture with the little eisegesis of struggle or jostle, sigh.

GOD also said that not only were they trying to murder each other (sin, not innocence in the womb) but that they were doing so to try to become the first born!

How could they know the Hebrew laws of primogeniture if they had no existence prior to the womb??

interesting point. the question would be when did the soul enter the body.

 

[concretecamper]

Body, soul and spirit, if any one of those is missing then you are not a person. If my soul was not there I would not.

you'd be dead so I guess you wouldn't mind.

So now your moving the goal post. That's the danger of your position. No one can logically argue it

 

[Jamdoc]

1. Please explain where in the Bible the passage that states life begins at conception is, I cannot find it anywhere.

2. Please explain how you came to the conclusion that life begin at conception, if you don't have a bible passage.

Note: this is not about your view on abortion, weather you are pro life or pro choice. This is about HOW you come to the conclusion and WHERE you get your beliefs from.

Thing is, conception is not a biological term.
there are 2 events required to begin a pregnancy

Fertilization, and Implantation.
Without Fertilization, you don't have any development
Without Implantation, any development that took place goes nowhere but in menstrual blood. The woman never even knows there was a fertilized egg in there, her body does not produce the hormonal changes that characterize pregnancy. The woman is never pregnant.

Conception in the bible takes place in the womb (Luke 1:31, Luke 2:21). Now. if fertilization takes place in the uterus, it will not divide enough times to implant, before it passes out of the body. Fertilization that results in implantation takes place in the fallopian tubes.
Therefore logically, conception refers to implantation, not fertilization.
Most fertilized eggs don't result in pregnancy because they don't implant.
Does God install souls in every fertilized egg before it implants? Probably not. Probably no souls in those extra embryos produced through IVF either.

and I back this up with Genesis 2

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Adam's body was formed first, THEN a soul put in it.
Likewise, I believe that the body is formed first, then it gains a soul/consciousness.

As to when that happens? I'm not exactly sure. It does happen prior to birth however, and that has evidence in both scripture, and in real practical evidence. fetuses in the womb move, dream, and respond to stimuli. At quickening they are definitely a "living soul", but likely before that and we're not entirely sure HOW MUCH before that.

Scripture evidence for that is Genesis 25:23-24, where the twins struggled with each other in Rebekah's womb, Job 3:11 where Job laments that he didn't die in the womb, and refers to giving up the ghost. For him to give up the ghost in his mother's womb, he'd have to have a ghost to give up, and Luke 1:41 where John the Baptist leaps in his mother's womb upon hearing the voice of Mary, who was pregnant with Jesus.

So.. earliest I think you can have a living soul, is implantation, it is likely later, because implantation is like laying the foundation of a building, you've started a building, but nothing can really live in it yet. Remember, body formed first, then a living soul. But it certainly is before birth, quickening is the absolute latest, but it is extremely likely that it is before quickening.

But to pinpoint when exactly fetus becomes a living soul? I don't have an exact answer, I'm not sure we'll ever know in this life.
So to be safe, probably should consider it starting at implantation.

 

[Jamdoc]

The Bible says life is in the blood in Leviticus chapter 17. At conception what becomes the fetus is in a process of being connected to the mother's blood supply otherwise it would not survive beyond that point or grow.

so implantation.

people saying fertilization I feel don't know what they're talking about, as fertilization is not in the womb where the bible describes conception, and a fertilized egg that doesn't implant, never results in pregnancy.

 

[Jamdoc]

Look closely though:
Jerimiah 1: 4-5 The word of the LORD came to me, saying: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Yes, that's a very good hint (as pointed out in post 2), and notice, God didn't say "when I formed you in the womb", He said "before I formed you in the womb"!

Our individual spirit which is our most essential self must exist on some level before our mother or father conceives our physical body. (before conception)

We read that directly: before he was even conceived, already God knew Jeremiah! Not when he was formed, but before.

And confirmed in another way for example in this verse:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
since the body is dust:
Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your bread, until you return to the ground--because out of it were you taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return."

So, body (flesh) and spirit of a person are not the same thing, and the body will return to dust, and the spirit to God who "gave it".

So, God, already knowing Jeremiah's spirit before even conception also already knew/knows all individual's spirits, before they have any physical body, before they are formed in the womb, for each individual person.
(Also, we can consider the a common mainstream interpretation that a soul is what happens when a spirit (from God) resides in a physical body)

At death of the physical body, the body returns to dust, as scripture says, but that is not who we are. We are spirit in essence (and that's the only ultimate lasting part of us). Christ said: John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

So, the only question that happens then is when does God place a spirit into a physical body, during pregnancy?

Only a portion often said to be a fraction like 1/2 of fertilized human eggs/embryos are actually viable on average == the ones which are healthy and are going to naturally survive and implant and thrive.

The others naturally die, just as God intended. The natural abortion of un-viable embryos (or for other reasons like a physical problem in the ovary or such).

So.... Would God put a spirit/soul into a fertilized egg that He can see is not viable and will be naturally aborted (as He designed to happen)?

It seems to better fit what we know of God -- Just, Fair, Merciful -- that He would choose to put a human soul into a growing human embryo that is viable/functional, and able to naturally grow. And that He would not put a human soul into an embryo that He can see is flawed or damaged/unviable, and He can see will naturally die in just days or soon.

Then consider that also, the soul is often associated with various levels of human consciousness, including for example even levels that are functioning during sleep in the form of dream consciousness, and even more subtle levels, or the 'subconsciousness'.

Those are brain states -- functions of the human brain. So, it's reasonable to think the human soul is temporarily housed in the human brain. That would imply that the earliest a human soul would be in a physical body is after the brain is sufficiently developed to have some level of consciousness.

So, it seems the general feeling most people have that there is a huge shift when the developing baby begins to have an ability to move, kick and respond to music and such -- that feeling corresponds to an deeply profound change.

That's not what Jeremiah 1:5 is referring to. man is made body first, then becomes a living soul.
God knows the future. So yes, God knew Jeremiah before he was even conceived, God already had a plan for Jeremiah. But Jeremiah did not actually exist prior. It's not like God has a soul warehouse where he stores people's souls for when they're conceived.

 

[Jamdoc]

I think from these verses, we can conclude that a "pregnant woman" has life in her, in that if she miscarries then that which "comes out" is both alive and children. It states "life for life."
So when does a woman become pregnant?
Unless we redefine words here, the "children" become "life" at the moment the woman becomes pregnant.


Exodus 21:22–25
22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Pregnancy begins at implantation. But not fertilization.
if they do IVF, those frozen extra embryos are not a pregnancy.

 

[Jamdoc]

So don't hold it against anyone if you go into a coma and they kill you

a coma is actually a state of consciousness. A low level of consciousness, but still a state of consciousness.

not to be mistaken with brain death.
actual brain death is just... death. even if the heart is still beating and lungs are kept alive through a machine.. the person you knew is gone, if they were in Christ, they're with Christ (and if that was the case would you really want to bring them back here before the resurrection and Christ's second coming?)

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

the process of forming a body begins, but the body is neither feels or is aware of anything. it is the same as a dead person. it is non-living, until the spirit of God enters it.

You should read what you write. Do you not feel ashamed for calling a growing human being "a dead person" and "non-living"? The very fact that the child is growing makes it crystal clear that it is alive.
And if you make "life" dependent on God's Spirit then - by your definition - animals are always dead no matter what. It's startling how mean-spirited your view of (human) life is.

 

[prodromos]

Body, soul and spirit, if any one of those is missing then you are not a person. If my soul was not there I would not.

So you cease to be a person while awaiting the general resurrection?
What Scripture do you base this opinion on?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

You should read what you write. Do you not feel ashamed for calling a growing human being "a dead person" and "non-living"? The very fact that the child is growing makes it crystal clear that it is alive.
And if you make "life" dependent on God's Spirit then - by your definition - animals are always dead no matter what. It's startling how mean-spirited your view of (human) life is.

My hair grows, my nails grow and bone grows, no one would ever thing that they were alive. So convince me that the beginning stages of life are not like hair,nail and bone.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

So you cease to be a person while awaiting the general resurrection?
What Scripture do you base this opinion on?

you cease to be a live human.
1 Thess 5:23 , James 2:26, Matt. 10:28,

 

[Adventist Dissident]

That's not what Jeremiah 1:5 is referring to. man is made body first, then becomes a living soul.
God knows the future. So yes, God knew Jeremiah before he was even conceived, God already had a plan for Jeremiah. But Jeremiah did not actually exist prior. It's not like God has a soul warehouse where he stores people's souls for when they're conceived.

some people believe that is the case, that there is a soul warehouse. even if the passages is talking about the pre-existence nature of the soul, it does not tell us when the soul enters the body, which is why I asked the question to begin with.

 

[Jamdoc]

So you cease to be a person while awaiting the general resurrection?
What Scripture do you base this opinion on?

He's SDA so likely he believes in Soul Sleep
I disagree (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord), but that's a tangent outside of this topic.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

He's SDA so likely he believes in Soul Sleep
I disagree (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord), but that's a tangent outside of this topic.

actually I don't follow the SDA teaching anymore on this issue,SDA are not soul sleepers, they are conditionalist, they don't believe you have a soul they believe you are one. (Gen 2:7). I believe you have a soul, that is how I came to the conclusion that life did not begin at conception. It begins when the soul enters the body. Notice I have a Seventh-day Evangelical Adventist (SEA) That means I do things differently. Soul Sleep is the doctrine of what happens when you die in the O.T. BEFORE Christ came. The soul went down to the pit and lay dormant, and unaware. AFTER Christ came the righteous go to heaven and the wicked go down to the pit and lie dormant. JOHN 3:16

 

[Jamdoc]

some people believe that is the case, that there is a soul warehouse. even if the passages is talking about the pre-existence nature of the soul, it does not tell us when the soul enters the body, which is why I asked the question to begin with.

I definitely do not believe that. Outside of Jeremiah 1:5 which verses would this be talking about?
Likely they all really refer to God's omniscience rather than any previous existence before being in a body.
The one sure fire bit of scripture we have has the body being created first, then becoming a living soul when God gives it life.
Being a disincorporated soul is an unnatural state for us, as God designed us to inhabit a body. That is why there is a physical resurrection and we don't just go on as disincorporated spirits forever.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I definitely do not believe that. Outside of Jeremiah 1:5 which verses would this be talking about?
Likely they all really refer to God's omniscience rather than any previous existence before being in a body.
The one sure fire bit of scripture we have has the body being created first, then becoming a living soul when God gives it life.
Being a disincorporated soul is an unnatural state for us, as God designed us to inhabit a body. That is why there is a physical resurrection and we don't just go on as disincorporated spirits forever.

Hebrews 10:5 "Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: 'Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;"

Was Christ in the body while it was being prepared or after it. The text implies after it.

 

[prodromos]

you cease to be a live human.

That is completely different to what you said before.

1 Thess 5:23 , James 2:26, Matt. 10:28,

The flesh ceases to grow and starts to decay when seperated from the soul, so it stands to reason that human flesh can only grow when it is united with the soul. Cells in the womb of a pregnant woman are growing, therefore the growing flesh must have a soul and is a whole person.

Also, I gave you two verses as answer to your OP in post #30 which you gave no response to.

 

[Jamdoc]

Hebrews 10:5 "Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: 'Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;"

Was Christ in the body while it was being prepared or after it. The text implies after it.

Oh well, Jesus always existed. Statements He made in the gospel accounts displayed that He always was

John 8

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Of course, after His ascension, Jesus is outside of time, so it's an unfathomable concept but Jesus existed bodily and was seen by people in the old testament, namely Daniel describing the Son of Man in Daniel 7, and the Man commanding Gabriel to explain the vision to Daniel. Whenever Jesus has shown up in the old testament, it has been in bodily form. So the best I can describe it.. is that once Jesus ascended, it was as if He'd always been in that body, stretching back into eternity, and forward into eternity, and so as far as reality is concerned.. Jesus has never been without that body, but at the same time.. there was a period of history where Jesus existed in human flesh before His resurrection body.

I don't know if that makes sense, it's hard to wrap the mind around. It's like splitting a timeline but instead of it just continuing on a new branch into the future, it also continued into the past, and always was. The Resurrection and Ascension is like a new reality altogether.

Hebrews 13

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

It's really the only way I can explain it. I can't fully understand it, but Jesus was present at the beginning of creation, in bodily form, in His resurrection body.
So while Christ is our example in many things.... His eternality, makes His beginning incomprehensible.
So it's not a good example of our own beginning, because we're finite, He's infinite.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Oh well, Jesus always existed. Statements He made in the gospel accounts displayed that He always was

John 8


Of course, after His ascension, Jesus is outside of time, so it's an unfathomable concept but Jesus existed bodily and was seen by people in the old testament, namely Daniel describing the Son of Man in Daniel 7, and the Man commanding Gabriel to explain the vision to Daniel. Whenever Jesus has shown up in the old testament, it has been in bodily form. So the best I can describe it.. is that once Jesus ascended, it was as if He'd always been in that body, stretching back into eternity, and forward into eternity, and so as far as reality is concerned.. Jesus has never been without that body, but at the same time.. there was a period of history where Jesus existed in human flesh before His resurrection body.

I don't know if that makes sense, it's hard to wrap the mind around. It's like splitting a timeline but instead of it just continuing on a new branch into the future, it also continued into the past, and always was. The Resurrection and Ascension is like a new reality altogether.

Hebrews 13


It's really the only way I can explain it. I can't fully understand it, but Jesus was present at the beginning of creation, in bodily form, in His resurrection body.
So while Christ is our example in many things.... His eternality, makes His beginning incomprehensible.
So it's not a good example of our own beginning, because we're finite, He's infinite.

not hard to understand, but it did not address the text.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

In Psalms 51:5 David speaks of "himself" being conceived in his mother's womb, which acknowledges that he is a "person" at conception.

Luke 1:41-44 acknowledges that the baby in Elizabeth's womb was a person capable of recognising another person.

ps 51 is speaking objectivly about the facts. not stating that he is aware. The second text is 6 monthns in, by that time soul has entered the body.