Lies are sinful...always?

[Athée]

Hey C.F. crew.

I am a former believer, now an atheist. In trying to find a reason to believe I often have conversations with mature and intelligent believers. Recently, in one such conversation, a believer expressed the notion that it is always a sin to lie. He began his defense of this in 10 commandments but went on to explain that objective morality is a reflection of gods nature. God being by truth by nature means that untruth, or lying is a sin....always.

Being a reprobate heathen that eats babies and worships the devil (sigh - I include this as a joke but let's all do our best to say away from ad hominem), I disagree.

For example:
Let's say my mother developed Alzheimer's disease. I visit her twice a day and every time she asks when dad will be home. Well dad was the love and joy of her life but he died two years ago. When I tell her he is dead, her face crumples and she begins to sob in anguish.
When I return for the evening visit the staff tell me that my mother sobbed for hours until she fell asleep for a nap. In fact she is just waking up as I enter the room. She asks when dad is going to get home....

I can tell her he is dead, over and over and she can be heartbroken every waking moment for the rest of her life. Or I can say " Dad wanted me to remind you that he is staying overnight at his brother's place tonight to help them with their paperwork".

As an immoral atheist I would chose the latter. What say you all...and more importantly what is your reasoning?

 

[Cearbhall]

As an immoral atheist I would chose the latter. What say you all...and more importantly what is your reasoning?

As you've demonstrated, it's incredibly easy to think of scenarios in which lying is the best course of action, or at least in which it is harmless (a white lie or a fib) or a moral gray area.

The idea that "it is always a sin to lie" is so simplistic and unrealistic that it's useless. It's one of the things we tell children when we suspect that they aren't yet capable of applying ethical nuances on a case-by-case basis. Teens and adults should have moved beyond that and should have developed the ability to consider multiple factors in their decision-making process.

There's no reason why saying something that isn't the truth would be objectively sinful. We do not owe everyone on Earth whatever information they might request of us, and we certainly don't owe them the trust that is required to be honest about our refusal.

 

[A_Thinker]

Hey C.F. crew.

I am a former believer, now an atheist. In trying to find a reason to believe I often have conversations with mature and intelligent believers. Recently, in one such conversation, a believer expressed the notion that it is always a sin to lie. He began his defense of this in 10 commandments but went on to explain that objective morality is a reflection of gods nature. God being by truth by nature means that untruth, or lying is a sin....always.

Being a reprobate heathen that eats babies and worships the devil (sigh - I include this as a joke but let's all do our best to say away from ad hominem), I disagree.

For example:
Let's say my mother developed Alzheimer's disease. I visit her twice a day and every time she asks when dad will be home. Well dad was the love and joy of her life but he died two years ago. When I tell her he is dead, her face crumples and she begins to sob in anguish.
When I return for the evening visit the staff tell me that my mother sobbed for hours until she fell asleep for a nap. In fact she is just waking up as I enter the room. She asks when dad is going to get home....

I can tell her he is dead, over and over and she can be heartbroken every waking moment for the rest of her life. Or I can say " Dad wanted me to remind you that he is staying overnight at his brother's place tonight to help them with their paperwork".

As an immoral atheist I would chose the latter. What say you all...and more importantly what is your reasoning?

I have faced this situation with a stricken older family member (grandmother).

Current care-giving advice is to humor your loved one in their remembrance (which has overtaken their reality).

Insisting upon reminding your loved one of the (often unpleasant) truth ... only heightens their anxiety, which aggravates their disease.

In these and similar situations, ... I find that LOVE is the best guiding principle.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm going to answer with the answer our Church would give.

Telling the truth down to every last detail is not the overarching feature that should guide us. Love is what should guide us.

In the situation you describe, telling your mother that your father is dead - kills him to her again every day. She suffers that loss freshly each time. It is heartbreaking to even consider. And to serve what? The person being able to say "I spoke the truth" ... which means really that his pride in the truth overrode love and kindness to a suffering woman who is unable to remember the truth anyway. Tormented her for the sake of puffing up his own vanity, vanity in the fact that he did a "virtuous thing". Absolutely not, and God forbid!

If I were in the position, I would attempt to give a kind answer that wasn't an outright lie. Dad told me to tell you he loves you, etc. (if he ever sent this message, it isn't a lie). If she's in a home, she's not in her normal surroundings anyway. She's going to forget she asked. She's going to forget he wasn't there last night, and so on (in the scenario you are describing). She should be able to be satisfied with an answer that will soothe her.

And kindness, love, compassion are what should guide us.

Rahab lied about where Joshua and his men were. Moses' midwife (and the others) lied about the children they didn't kill. I do NOT say that morality is relative, but telling every truth one knows is not a requirement of virtue.

 

[A_Thinker]

I'm going to answer with the answer our Church would give.

Telling the truth down to every last detail is not the overarching feature that should guide us. Love is what should guide us.

In the situation you describe, telling your mother that your father is dead - kills him to her again every day. She suffers that loss freshly each time. It is heartbreaking to even consider. And to serve what? The person being able to say "I spoke the truth" ... which means really that his pride in the truth overrode love and kindness to a suffering woman who is unable to remember the truth anyway. Tormented her for the sake of puffing up his own vanity, vanity in the fact that he did a "virtuous thing". Absolutely not, and God forbid!

If I were in the position, I would attempt to give a kind answer that wasn't an outright lie. Dad told me to tell you he loves you, etc. (if he ever sent this message, it isn't a lie). If she's in a home, she's not in her normal surroundings anyway. She's going to forget she asked. She's going to forget he wasn't there last night, and so on (in the scenario you are describing). She should be able to be satisfied with an answer that will soothe her.

And kindness, love, compassion are what should guide us.

Rahab lied about where Joshua and his men were. Moses' midwife (and the others) lied about the children they didn't kill. I do NOT say that morality is relative, but telling every truth one knows is not a requirement of virtue.

You make valid points ... with which I agree wholeheartedly.

Interestingly, in these situations, it is not so much the need to "give truth" to an ailing family member, ... but to "fight against" the disease, ... thinking that "the truth" will somehow bring your loved one back to reality. I've seen this often from adult children who are "losing" a parent. They think that somehow reestablishing "the truth" will stem the course of the disease.

As I mentioned before, ... the only result I've seen from such is a heightening of anxiety, which, ironically, contributes to the disease symptoms.

As you said, Rahab lied ... and was blessed for it ...

 

[KnowtheSilence]

I used to work as a transporter in the physical therapy department of a long-term care facility, and I ran into issues like this a lot. I was religious at the time, rather black-and-white in my thinking, and this was something that bothered me. I never felt right lying to the patients with Alzhiemer's or dementia.

One day I was watching a woman with dementia working with her occupational therapist. She was one who ever ten minutes or so would say "I'm sorry, I have to go soon. My husband is coming to pick me up." People would usually say things like "oh, your husband called and said he's running late." Then they'd find something for her to keep busy while she "watied."

This therapist didn't do that. He took her by the hand and very gently told her "I'm sorry to tell you this, but your husband passed away several years ago. Do you remember?" She thought about it a moment and said yes, she remembered. "And you live here now, in the nursing home." She thought about it again and said "oh, that's right. Thank you for telling me."

I was floored. I promised myself that I wouldn't lie to residents again after seeing that.

The next day, I wen to pick up this same resident for therapy. She refused to go. "I won't go back there. They lie to me. They told me my husband was dead. He's not dead; he's on his way to pick me up."

I decided that maybe lies weren't always immoral sometime after that.

 

[Vicomte13]

Hey C.F. crew.

I am a former believer, now an atheist. In trying to find a reason to believe I often have conversations with mature and intelligent believers. Recently, in one such conversation, a believer expressed the notion that it is always a sin to lie. He began his defense of this in 10 commandments but went on to explain that objective morality is a reflection of gods nature. God being by truth by nature means that untruth, or lying is a sin....always.

Being a reprobate heathen that eats babies and worships the devil (sigh - I include this as a joke but let's all do our best to say away from ad hominem), I disagree.

For example:
Let's say my mother developed Alzheimer's disease. I visit her twice a day and every time she asks when dad will be home. Well dad was the love and joy of her life but he died two years ago. When I tell her he is dead, her face crumples and she begins to sob in anguish.
When I return for the evening visit the staff tell me that my mother sobbed for hours until she fell asleep for a nap. In fact she is just waking up as I enter the room. She asks when dad is going to get home....

I can tell her he is dead, over and over and she can be heartbroken every waking moment for the rest of her life. Or I can say " Dad wanted me to remind you that he is staying overnight at his brother's place tonight to help them with their paperwork".

As an immoral atheist I would chose the latter. What say you all...and more importantly what is your reasoning?

How about this scenario: It is 1943, and you are Dutch, living in occupied Holland. You have hidden Jews in your attic. The Nazi occupier comes and knocks on your door, and you present your fresh Flemish ("Aryan") face in response. The Nazi asks, apologetically (seeing that you are a fellow Aryan) "Do you haff any JOOS in your house?" You reply "Of course not!" (lying through your teeth). He gives you the "Heil Hitler!" salute and you, not wishing to gather the attention of the authorities, mimic it and say "Heil Hitler" in reply.

You have lied twice here. Are these lies sins? Perhaps they are, but so what? Everybody commits a mortal sin every time they touch. Committing another mortal sin - lying to save people's lives - is just two more in the hopper, and for a nobler cause too.

God's the judge, and he judges justly. Would a just judge punish you for lying under such circumstances? No. Is lying a sin? Sure. Were those lies sins? Of course. Will you be punished by God for them? Of course not - he will forgive those sins, just as he forgives other sins.

Is lying to your mother to prevent her distress a sin? Of course. So what? How would any just judge look at that sin? With the same mercy that the sin was intended, I am sure. So don't worry about it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hey C.F. crew.

I am a former believer, now an atheist.

Did you have a real and undeniable experience with Jesus Christ or did you simply believe because you were influenced to believe God because your family said so?

I say this because I grew up believing in God as the result of my family, and then I became an atheist for a short while. However, when I accepted Jesus Christ a few years later in my life, I could never deny the reality of when Jesus first came to me and transformed my life in such a powerful way.

In other words, there is a difference between having a belief in God and truly knowing Jesus Christ and walking with Him.

In trying to find a reason to believe I often have conversations with mature and intelligent believers. Recently, in one such conversation, a believer expressed the notion that it is always a sin to lie. He began his defense of this in 10 commandments but went on to explain that objective morality is a reflection of gods nature. God being by truth by nature means that untruth, or lying is a sin....always.

Being a reprobate heathen that eats babies and worships the devil (sigh - I include this as a joke but let's all do our best to say away from ad hominem), I disagree.

For example:
Let's say my mother developed Alzheimer's disease. I visit her twice a day and every time she asks when dad will be home. Well dad was the love and joy of her life but he died two years ago. When I tell her he is dead, her face crumples and she begins to sob in anguish.
When I return for the evening visit the staff tell me that my mother sobbed for hours until she fell asleep for a nap. In fact she is just waking up as I enter the room. She asks when dad is going to get home....

I can tell her he is dead, over and over and she can be heartbroken every waking moment for the rest of her life. Or I can say " Dad wanted me to remind you that he is staying overnight at his brother's place tonight to help them with their paperwork".

As an immoral atheist I would chose the latter. What say you all...and more importantly what is your reasoning?

You simply do not have to answer her instead of lying. You can simply change the topic.

Anyways, there are some believers who might think that God approved of Rahab in lying; However, Rahab did not break the 9th Commandment and lie. She was using the art of war in protecting the interests of God's people. For she did not lie to protect herself or to cover up another sin or anything of that nature.

For in war time or in protecting your loved ones or God's people, a person can use the art of war to defend that which is good. This sometimes unfortunately involves deceiving and or eliminating your enemy; However, these things are not done out of selfish ambition, but they are done in order to preserve innocent lives or to protect the common good.

For the Hebrew midwives had lied to the Pharoah's servants to protect the innocent (Exodus 1).

And King David pretended he was crazy when he was not crazy in front of the enemy king of Gath named "Achish" (1 Samuel 21:10-15).

Also, Elisha deceived the enemy when they were blinded by lying about where he was taking them. (2 Kings 6:19)

In addition in Joshua 8:
Joshua himself went in battle against the city of Ai, they pretended that they were being defeated and they retreated. They weren’t being defeated—it was a trap. The Israelites deceived them.

Please take note that God told Joshua to lay an ambush for the army at Ai. If you were to read the chapter, this ambush involved deception. In other words, God was telling Joshua to deceive their enemies as a part of the art of war.

However, if a certain spirit was telling Joshua to lie so as to cover up a sin and or his own embarrassment or shame about something, then that would be a wrong spirit who was trying to make Joshua break the 9th Commandment.

Think of it this way. When a person selfishly takes their own life, it is considered suicide.
But when a person throws themselves in harm's way so as to save a life like a father pushing his son out of the way of a moving car (with him being hit), it is considered great love. This is what Jesus has done for us. He has died in our place so as to give us eternal life and salvation so as to spend eternity with Him and His good ways.

Side Note:

Oh, and one more thing. I would like to add that believers today are not under the Old Covenant anymore. God is not telling His people to go to war with certain nations, and use deception as a part of the art of war, etc. Believers today are under the New Covenant with a different set of laws or commands that involves love and non violence. There is no command in the New Testament that gives believers today a loophole for lying to people. If a believer is in a difficult situation whereby they are forced to lie so as to protect a loved one today, I believe that they will repent of such a sin (i.e. confess it to the Lord Jesus Christ). For how often does a person run into this kind of scenario? If they repeatedly do so, then they need to stand up for what is good and right and trust in God's good ways. It is still always wrong to lie out of our own selfish motives and ambitions. There was a time and place for such things in the past, but we believers today are called to be imitators of Jesus Christ. We follow a higher calling of love and goodness.


...

 

[Vicomte13]

I decided that maybe lies weren't always immoral sometime after that.

Lies are always sins. Sometimes in a fallen world to commit a sin is an act of mercy.

 

[A_Thinker]

How about this scenario: It is 1943, and you are Dutch, living in occupied Holland. You have hidden Jews in your attic. The Nazi occupier comes and knocks on your door, and you present your fresh Flemish ("Aryan") face in response. The Nazi asks, apologetically (seeing that you are a fellow Aryan) "Do you haff any JOOS in your house?" You reply "Of course not!" (lying through your teeth). He gives you the "Heil Hitler!" salute and you, not wishing to gather the attention of the authorities, mimic it and say "Heil Hitler" in reply.

I would think that the biblical Rahab example (she lied about hiding Hebrew spies) ... would be a guide in this type of situation ...

 

[Vicomte13]

I would think that the biblical Rahab example (she lied about hiding Hebrew spies) ... would be a guide in this type of situation ...

It would be a good example, yes.

 

[A_Thinker]

You simply do not have to answer her instead of lying. You can simply change the topic.

In such a situation, the afflicted will often repeat their question, growing all the more anxious, until they receive a reassuring response ...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In such a situation, the afflicted will often repeat their question, growing all the more anxious, until they receive a reassuring response ...

If that is the case, try to fight so as to not answer the question. But if they must know, it is best to tell the truth. Why? Because it is the right thing to do. Besides, if they are heart broken, it is not the end of the world. They can be led to the Lord by their heart broken situation. A believer realizes that to live is Christ and to die is gain. This life is but a stage and it is not our ultimate life now.


...

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Lies are sin, but there other ways to express to your loved one that isn't lying.

For instance, you can say "he is not here right now." Or "He went away for a while". Those are not lies, they express the reality of what happened without giving the hopelessness death brings. But hypotheticals are never a good way to justify wrongdoing.

What I find interesting is you profess to be an atheist yet want to find a reason to believe again. I brought this up the other day how the proof God exists lies within the heart of an atheist. For someone who claims "God doesn't exist" still wants to find him.

At any rate I will pray for you. God bless you!

 

[jayem]

Casuistry is a practical approach to making ethical decisions. It acknowledges the reality that in the end, all ethical decisions are made on a case by case basis. A useful related concept is that of a prima facie wrong. This refers to an action (A), that on it's face, is wrong. But in some circumstances, choosing A may avoid, or prevent a greater wrong. It's not an ultima facie wrong. This is essentially an erudite way of stating the obvious--sometimes we must choose the lesser of 2 evils.

 

[Vicomte13]

If that is the case, try to fight so as to not answer the question. But if they must know, it is best to tell the truth. Why? Because it is the right thing to do. Besides, if they are heart broken, it is not the end of the world. They can be led to the Lord by their heart broken situation. A believer realizes that to live is Christ and to die is gain. This life is but a stage and it is not our ultimate life now.


...

It is far better to lie in such a circumstance. Unless you are always as sexually pure as the fresh-driven snow. Because if you're not, then you're still a dirty mortal sinner, but your pride in keeping a PARTICULAR rule has caused you to become merciless.

Oh, and any normal person who claims to be as sexually pure as the fresh-driven snow is obviously a blatant liar, relying on the fact that nobody can know for sure for cover. But God knows - and actually, so does everybody else. We all know that we're pretty much dirt bags in our minds - our minds turned to evil things since our youth.

So, given that we're already dogs, to withhold a palliative lie is just merciless and mean.

A much simpler lie: my grandma once made me lemon tarts. I came home from school and she offered me fresh lemon tarts. I like lemon tarts. These were not good, however. She had not gotten the recipe right, and the bottoms of the crusts were overdone.

I took a bite and didn't like it. I told her thank you, that it was good, and ate the whole thing. Then she - knowing I was always voracious after school - offered me another. I grimaced a smile and ate the second one, and told her they were great, and thanked her again.

Lies. All lies. And the punishment FOR the lie was that I just had to choke down two bad tarts. But an old lady who had stood on her feet for a couple of hours to make her grandson a treat was happy, and I was no worse for wear.

It was better to lie in that situation than to tell the truth. All things considered, it was the right decision. Even though to lie is to sin.

Another example: the other grandma was getting old. She had the whole family in for Thanksgiving, and had prepared a big meal. It was too much for her and much was late, and she was fretting, but everybody was still happy to be there and supportive. I was 16. I was eating the stuffing and came on something hard. I stopped for a minute and held my mouth, then put up a napkin and found...a bottle cap. She had accidentally dropped a bottlecap into the stuffing.

The people around me stopped and watched me when I pulled something out of my mouth and looked down at it in my lap.

"What's wrong?" my aunt asked. "Nothing!" I lied. "I bit my tongue. That's all." People went back to talking.

It would have been HONEST to say "There's a BOTTLE CAP in my stuffing!" Grandma would have been mortified and disgraced, in her eyes, before the whole family. Even a teenager knew that, so just as the 10-year-old lied to save one grandma's feelings, the 16-year-old lied to save the other's.

I remember these bald-faced lies, I considered them The Right Thing To Do at the time, and I still do.
Sins? Sure, in some abstract legalistic way. Wrong? Not by any fair standard of judgment. My God is fair, and isn't going to hold me any more accountable for those lies than he already did: I had to eat two tarts I didn't want to eat, and I had to finish my stuffing wondering if there were other things in it.

A third, common example: "Do I look fat in this?"

"Yes dear. You are 15 pounds overweight so you look fat in everything."

This is not the correct response, even for a Christian.

 

[Halbhh]

Hey C.F. crew.

I am a former believer, now an atheist. In trying to find a reason to believe I often have conversations with mature and intelligent believers. Recently, in one such conversation, a believer expressed the notion that it is always a sin to lie. He began his defense of this in 10 commandments but went on to explain that objective morality is a reflection of gods nature. God being by truth by nature means that untruth, or lying is a sin....always.

Being a reprobate heathen that eats babies and worships the devil (sigh - I include this as a joke but let's all do our best to say away from ad hominem), I disagree.

For example:
Let's say my mother developed Alzheimer's disease. I visit her twice a day and every time she asks when dad will be home. Well dad was the love and joy of her life but he died two years ago. When I tell her he is dead, her face crumples and she begins to sob in anguish.
When I return for the evening visit the staff tell me that my mother sobbed for hours until she fell asleep for a nap. In fact she is just waking up as I enter the room. She asks when dad is going to get home....

I can tell her he is dead, over and over and she can be heartbroken every waking moment for the rest of her life. Or I can say " Dad wanted me to remind you that he is staying overnight at his brother's place tonight to help them with their paperwork".

As an immoral atheist I would chose the latter. What say you all...and more importantly what is your reasoning?

The 10 commandment one is different than just any lie:
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour"

Where might we find additional of the truly serious sins? The sins "God hates" --

16 There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

Notice a "lying tongue" must mean habitual lying. Not one lie meant to be for good intentions, as your example.

When there is a fine question, we could look to see what Christ said on it. He would know. Don't you agree?

He said this --

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you, for this sums up the law and the prophets."

Notice that wording, "sums up". So....this is the way to know.

Rely on Him and you can't go wrong.

What for you mother? Try to totally put yourself into her shoes as best you can. What would you want, truly and deeply, in your heart?

For myself I would want to know, even over and over, because it would help me to remember the reality for us all, and the truth of life here. In secular wording: "Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee."

Now, if you tell her again, because that is what you would want yourself in her shoes, then....what if you *stayed with her* for those "hours" of sobbing.....?

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I can't think of any rule that is 100% applicable in all cases, without exception. That even applies to telling the truth.

When I was younger and still could, I stood up on the bus to offer my seat to a frail-looking older lady. The bus was quite crowded, and I had to point out to her the seat I had vacated. She took it with a smile, but then a minute later she was troubled. "Did you just give up your seat for me?"

I smiled back and answered, "No ma'am," because I didn't want her to feel guilty, or to stand up and insist I take it back. And even though I flat-out lied, I'm not so sure it was wrong for me to do that.

 

[KnowtheSilence]

Lies are always sins. Sometimes in a fallen world to commit a sin is an act of mercy.

So ought we do it because it a mercy, or ought we not do it because it is a sin?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Hey C.F. crew.

I am a former believer, now an atheist. In trying to find a reason to believe I often have conversations with mature and intelligent believers. Recently, in one such conversation, a believer expressed the notion that it is always a sin to lie. He began his defense of this in 10 commandments but went on to explain that objective morality is a reflection of gods nature. God being by truth by nature means that untruth, or lying is a sin....always.

Being a reprobate heathen that eats babies and worships the devil (sigh - I include this as a joke but let's all do our best to say away from ad hominem), I disagree.

For example:
Let's say my mother developed Alzheimer's disease. I visit her twice a day and every time she asks when dad will be home. Well dad was the love and joy of her life but he died two years ago. When I tell her he is dead, her face crumples and she begins to sob in anguish.
When I return for the evening visit the staff tell me that my mother sobbed for hours until she fell asleep for a nap. In fact she is just waking up as I enter the room. She asks when dad is going to get home....

I can tell her he is dead, over and over and she can be heartbroken every waking moment for the rest of her life. Or I can say " Dad wanted me to remind you that he is staying overnight at his brother's place tonight to help them with their paperwork".

As an immoral atheist I would chose the latter. What say you all...and more importantly what is your reasoning?

No, I think that there is an aspect where the questioner isn't entitled to the truth. And then there's the situation you speak of. You've already told her the truth, no sense beating her head with it. I would just say 'soon' rather than make up something. This is the sort of lie such as Santa Claus and Tooth Fairy for children. Also, just because something is not true doesn't make it a lie. We don't know that there is anything true-to-life in Jesus' parables, yet they still contain Truth.