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Featured Libertarian freewill vs limited freewill

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Doug Melven, Jan 11, 2018.

  1. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You have to watch out for what Job says because in the next chapter later he says: But I desire to speak to the Almighty and to argue my case with God.

    Wow! is that a miss conception about God on Job’s part.

    Back to the verse you quote: God can at any time quit providing life to any and all, so what does that have to do with the very limited free will choice mature adults have?

    Proverbs is a very poetic book not to be taken literally and we can look at many examples of this, but let’s look at these verses:

    God’s plans and purpose will overrides man’s plans, so what does that have to do with the very limited free will choice mature adults have? God has “planned” and “established man’s steps” so all mature adults have the opportunity to accept or reject His Love, so man cannot override that plan or step away.

    Paul is addressing only Christians in Ephesus who have already made the choice and all Christians were predestined to inherit a place in the Kingdom, but that is not saying any individual before accepting God’s charity was “predestine” to inherit a place in the kingdom?

    It says specifically “you may” and not “you will” so it is contingent on us to endure with the power given us, but we may not?

    OK, so what does that have to do with the very limited free will choice mature adults have?

    This is talking about nations and not individuals, so what is the issue?



    Again that does not say, “man has no choice when it comes to accepting or rejecting God’s charity”. God’s “plan” seems to be to allow mature adults while here on earth to choose to accept or reject His charity.
     
  2. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    The issue is that God controls every moment of every electron.
    The parallel to that is that man thinks he is in control and God calls
    us to act as if that were the case, while believing in God at the same time.
    Without our action, there would be no faith, just couch potatoes waiting for God.
     
  3. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    No, this isn't what I've been saying.
     
  4. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    So your interpretation of these verses says that God controls everything and we have no freewill?
    Believers and unbelievers alike have no freewill?

    How is it then that believers still sin?
    Hebrews 12:2 Let us lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily besets us and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.
    1 John 2:1-2 These things I write unto you that ye sin not.
    And if any sin
    we have an Advocate with the Father,Jesus Christ the Righteous.

    Verse 1 tells us what God's will is, and verse 2 tells us the cure if we sin.
     
  5. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    The parallel to that is that man thinks he is in control and God calls
    us to act as if that were the case, while believing in God at the same time.
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    First, if you did not respond to someone on the forums, you cannot expect them to read what you had written. You also cannot expect someone to look at your older posts within a thread, either. People just do not do that on forums. Can they? Yes. But will they? No. It is not common. Not everyone reads everyone's posts within a thread. Second, I am asking the questions because it is the most direct and quick way to find out what you believe so as to properly reply to you. It is better than me guessing what you believe and coming to the wrong conclusion.

    I was asking from the perspective of a person who is genuinely saying "yes" to GOD.
    So this appears like you are saying "Yes" to this question based upon the answers to my other questions.
    For it sounds like you believe a person cannot choose GOD genuinely without a spiritual regeneration from GOD.

    So if men reject the gospel it is not their fault because GOD is the One who decides who can receive the gospel or not? This makes it seem like GOD is to blame for some men in rejecting the gospel. It also would make the Judgment appear to be like a joke or a farce, too. For why judge men if they had no control of their own choice in choosing GOD? For example: That would be like a man creating a robot and programming it to kill and then later putting that robot on trial for murdering others. It makes no sense to do that.

    So if we become slaves or servants to GOD, we have then stopped sinning?
    For surely if we have no will of our own, then no believer should be able to sin after being born again or saved.

    As for free will:
    Here is...

    Free Will in the Bible:

    #1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
    "Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

    #2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
    "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

    #3. John 7:17 KJV -
    "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

    #4. John 7:37 KJV -
    "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

    #5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
    "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

    #6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
    "Repent therefore and be converted"

    #7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

    #8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
    "but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

    #9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
    "Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

    #10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
    "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

    #11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
    "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

    #12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  7. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    God chooses us. I gave scriptures, but you seem to if not then. The scriptures, all the ones you gave are an invitation, a seed scattered, it is scattered everywhere. Matt.11:28-30 My favorite verses in the Bible. Its an invitation, a thought planted - maybe the beginning of Gods drawing power. Enough of those seeds scattered, some take root. If course we must respond BUT HE ENABLES US. You must understand the spiritual act if lifting the veil of blindness- do you not??? Only God can do that and it isn't a result of our choice. In other words, we don't choose God and then He removes the veil. Spiritual vision is necessary to make that decision. Again, we don't jumpstart this process.
    But man is without excuse any way you cut it.
    He didn't choose the world he destroyed, only eight. Now if man had free will back then, why didn't anyone else out of probably millions choose God? 100 years passed while this crazy man was building and the story spread far and wide and Noah did preach and no one came. Because they were not able to, Good purposed that. Evil is destructive and that world was wicked to the core. Like a disease, deadly bacteria or a virus, what do you do ... Kill it. He will do the same soon. And till then, the seed will be scattered, some will fall on the ground and the Devil will snatch it away, some will fall on rocky soil, some on shallow soil and some on fertile, soil.
    Did you prepare your soil or did God?
     
  8. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    My analogy, as I said, was an analogy, a way of illustrating a point about God's sovereignty and our free will. Quite obviously, God is not sitting down with folk playing chess. You will not find His name on any roster of human chess grandmasters, either. You seem to understand that I'm not trying to assert that He is. Why, then, land on the part of my analogy about the chessmaster winning the chess game as though I am trying to assert that God is playing a game with us? My point was that whatever we do, whatever choice we make, in the end, God's will is ultimately done. All others to whom I offered this analogy immediately understood this to be my point.

    Are you telling me you think the Almighty, infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God, the Creator and Sustainer of the universe, thinks and feels pretty much exactly as you do? I sure hope not!

    I think if God feels in the sin-corrupted manner that we do, for the reasons we do, then He cannot be God. Again, this seems very obvious to me. When God feels pleasure, or sorrow, or wrath, or anger, or whatever, He does not, I believe, feel in the way we do or entirely for the reasons we do. I'm speaking, of course, of God the Father, not Jesus the God-man in his earthly, temporal, unglorified form.

    Isaiah 55:8-9
    8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord.
    9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.


    And I would like to tell you about God the Father, the infinite Creator and Sustainer of the Universe, the Uncaused First Cause and the Ground of All Reality.

    Scripture says not one word about genetics, about chromosomes, or genomes, or mitochondria, or alleles. Are these things, then, not the work of God? Are we not to attribute genetics to God because the Bible says nothing about them? Of course not. Likewise, dismissing human reasoning (given to us by God), because it does not depend directly upon Scripture for its basis is silly. It's also an obvious and facile strategy to avoid dealing with challenging ideas.

    Obviously, it is not the only verse in the Bible. But you weren't speaking of all the other verses in the Bible; you were speaking of just the one in Philippians. I agree that our interpretation of one verse or passage must stand in harmony with the whole of Scripture. God's word does not contradict itself. But a verse is most often - and best - understood in and by its immediate context. The farther you get from that immediate context, the more you are apt to misconstrue or mistake entirely the meaning of a verse or passage it contains. As any good professor of biblical hermeneutics will tell you, "Context is king."

    Well, you're saying so doesn't make it so. You can only guess at my motives and assign them to me according to your own prejudices and motives, so you might as well not bother. All you end up doing is revealing your ignorance of me as a person and exposing your biases and prejudices, doctrinal and otherwise.

    Why are you trying to explain Paul's words in his letter to the Philippians from his letter to the Corinthians? Because you can't find good ground in the immediate context of verse 6 of chapter 1 in Paul's letter to the Philippians to gainsay what he plainly states in it.

    I don't understand Paul to be talking of lost salvation when he writes of "taking heed lest he fall." He is talking of falling into sin from a position of holy obedience, not of the loss of one's salvation, which synthesizes with what Paul says in Philippians 1:6 far better.

    Who said Christians can't walk uprightly? Of course they can - and should! But it is just, well, silly to think that sinless perfection is attainable this side of eternity. The fact that it is not attainable is precisely the reason why God had to create in and through Christ the means by which He could accept us, prone to sin though we might be. We are by faith clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ and that - and only that - makes us acceptable to our perfectly holy Creator. Christ is our Justifier, the One through whom we are reconciled to God and by whom we obtain a right standing before Him.

    Romans 5:1-2
    1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


    Romans 5:8-10
    8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


    No mention of believers losing their salvation here...I don't see how you come to the conclusion from what is written in this passage that Paul was teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine. To do so requires eisegesis (forcing into a passage its meaning), not exegesis (drawing out of a passage its meaning). There is no good reason to think those mentioned by Paul in verse 18 were genuine believers - or believers at all.

    Who is saying it is not?

    Who has suggested we ought to try escaping God's moral laws? I haven't.

    We are not justified at all by keeping the law.

    Titus 3:5-7
    5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
    6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
    7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


    Romans 3:20
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


    No one is saying that it is.

    He says not one word in the entire chapter about being a Pharisee or that he is speaking from such a perspective.

    Yes, and?

    Yes, Paul was describing his present and personal struggle with sin. He says not one word in chapter 7 about speaking from the perspective of a Pharisee. He doesn't speak of being a Pharisee or of describing the perspective of one in chapter 6 or chapter 8, either. The "body of this death" is not a reference to Pharisaism. Paul explains exactly what he means:

    Romans 7:22-25
    22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
    25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


    When understood in context, the phrase "body of this death" is a reference to the "law of sin" in Paul's members (his physical body, his flesh) that wars against the "law" of his mind. The perspective of a Pharisee is not in view here at all.

    Paul describes the believer's spiritual position in Christ in chapter 6 of Romans. He describes what is true spiritually of every believer the moment they are saved. They were "crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be destroyed that henceforth they should not serve sin." (v. 6) Obviously, if the Roman Christians understood this, Paul wouldn't have had to explain it to them. And being ignorant of their crucified position in Christ, they weren't, then, living in accord with that spiritual position; they weren't living as those who were dead to sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ (they were sinning). So, Paul had to draw this to their attention and explain how they were to live in the truth of their spiritual co-crucifixion with Christ. But despite the ignorance of the Roman Christians, and their not living in accord with their death to Self and sin and their new life in Christ, Paul does not write to them as believers who had lost their salvation. He writes to them, instead, as fellow brothers and sisters in the faith.

    Change happens over time. All through a born-again believer's life there is (or ought to be) a progression through increasing levels of sanctification. No one ever arrives at perfect sanctification in their daily living, though they are in their spiritual position fully sanctified by the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Certainly, as I have pointed out, this is what Paul describes of his own experience as a believer.

    Philippians 3:12
    12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on...


    I have never made a point about it not mattering how a believer lives. Nor have I implied it. I wouldn't, because I don't believe that how we live doesn't matter. It does. I just don't think a genuine believer's salvation hangs in the balance if he lives a less than perfectly holy and righteous life.

    Well, here's the horrible truth you seem unwilling to face: We are all of us, in one measure or another and at all times, hypocrites. No one but Christ has ever managed to live a sinless life. As clear of sin as we might make our lives today, there are depths of sin still remaining in each of us, unrecognized as sin and so hidden from our view. Spiritual maturity, in part, involves moving with God beyond the big, obvious, glaring sins into the dark, hidden, or unnoticed corners of our lives where sin exists and allowing Him to bring us free of that sin, too. But this takes time, as does a deepening of our understanding of God's incredible holiness and our incredible sinfulness, which are vital to seeing our sin clearly. So, when Paul writes to believers not to be adulterers, or fornicators, or gossips, or petty and spiteful, or whatever, he may have been writing as one who had, at least in some measure, conquered these areas of sin, but he was by no means an all-perfected saint. He still had sin in his life, subtle, hard-to-see sin, perhaps, but sin nonetheless. And he admits as much in the verses I have already cited in my earlier posts.

    See above.

    ??? Not following you here. God gives to each of us life and breath and He sustains that life at every moment. But my life which He gives and sustains is MY life, not yours or anyone else's. Does this mean my life is not entirely contingent upon God? Of course not. I only exist as me because He exists. So, too, in my life as a believer. My salvation is my salvation, but this doesn't mean every bit of it is not dependent upon God. He is my salvation; my salvation is Him. It is this thought, the thought that my salvation is the very God of the universe Himself, that ought to cause me to tremble in reverential awe of who He is and what He has done for me.

    No, I responded to it. I'll say again what I said to this idea before: No where does Scripture use the phrase "initial salvation." One is either born again, or one is not. There are no stages of being born. You'll never hear a obstetrician speak of "initial physical birth" and you never hear of God speaking of "initial spiritual birth," either. As I said, one is born or one is not; there is no "intial" to it.

    You see, I don't have this mistaken notion that a believer's life must be entirely sinlessly perfect and if it isn't their salvation is forfeit. As I have explained above, every believer is on a continuum of growth and change from one level of sanctification to another over time. But this entails that while some parts of a believer's life become more holy, more righteous, other areas remain yet to be cleared of sin. And this is what Paul recognizes in the verses I cited. He also describes the difference between a believer's spiritual position and their daily condition or experience. The latter over time comes to reflect the former, but never all at once and never perfectly.

    But this is clearly not the case. Many have heard the Gospel and rejected it - even among those who listened to Jesus himself and witnessed his miracles! If God is not drawing him, no amount of preaching of the Gospel will save a man.

    I did. Read Ephesians 2:1-11. Everything that I said is described in the passage.

    This is exactly what I said. And because this is so, there is no "initial" about it. "Initial" indicates a process, not a one-time event.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, I am more skeptical than most people by what they say. Sometimes people do actually believe crazy things and not the right thing by what they say. Also, you really did not use the words "ultimately in the end God's will is done" in your original post. Now, that you have made this point clear, we can move on.

    The problem is that you are making GOD closer in relation to an impersonal force like from Star Wars.

    For what are the fruits of the Spirit?

    The fruits of the Spirit are:

    1. love,
    2. joy (happiness),
    3. peace,
    4. long-suffering,
    5. gentleness (kindness),
    6. goodness,
    7. faith (trust),
    8. Meekness (humility),
    9. temperance (self control).

    (See Galatians 5:22-23)

    One of the fruits of the Spirit and not of man is.... joy.
    Joy is to be happy. So if the Holy Spirit's fruit is joy, then that means the Holy Spirit is joyful and happy. The Holy Spirit is GOD just as GOD the Father is GOD and Jesus is GOD.

    If you do not mind me asking, did you ever have an emotionally bad experience whereby you did not want to feel emotion anymore? Or have you always seen emotions as a sign of weakness? Are you a fan of Star Trek whereby you admire the Vulcans ability to suppress their emotions? Please do not take offense by these questions. I am merely trying to figure out where you are coming from and why you believe in such an unorthodox way about GOD.

    Nobody is saying that GOD feels or acts in a sin corrupted manner. GOD is perfectly capable to have emotions and feel them and act them out perfectly without sinning. GOD does not make mistakes with His emotions as humans do. We might do something we wish we wouldn't have done in our anger, but we are not GOD (who has infinite knowledge). GOD knows all things and He has infinite knowledge. So when GOD gets angry, there is no new knowledge later that will surprise Him that He did the wrong thing. GOD cannot make mistakes. Having emotion is not a bad thing. To be angry at sin is a good thing. Granted, I believe we should love the sinner and hate the sin. Love is an emotion, too. For GOD so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (John 3:16). Imagine if GOD did not have the emotion of love. We would all be doomed. But you want GOD to not have emotions. That to me is scary. For it means that we should shut down our emotions to be like GOD. That is very dangerous because when a person shuts down their emotions, they are not acting in line with basic morality. Ever hear of sociopaths or psychopaths before?

    The context of Isaiah 55:8-9 is not a lack of emotion but it is sin or wickedness. For it is talking about the wicked or the unrighteous man (who are sinful).

    "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts:" (Isaiah 55:7).

    GOD has...

    • Anger – Psalm 7:11; Deuteronomy 9:22; Romans 1:18
    • Laughter – Psalm 37:13; Psalm 2:4; Proverbs 1:26
    • Compassion – Psalm 135:14; Judges 2:18; Deuteronomy 32:36
    • Grief – Genesis 6:6; Psalm 78:40
    • Love – 1 John 4:8; John 3:16; Jeremiah 31:3
    • Hate – Proverbs 6:16; Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:5
    • Jealousy – Exodus 20:5; Exodus 34:14; Joshua 24:19
    • Joy – Zephaniah 3:17; Isaiah 62:5; Jeremiah 32:41

    Jesus was not an emotionless automaton. He felt what we feel, weeping with those who wept (John 11:35), feeling compassion for the multitudes (Mark 6:34), and being overcome with sorrow (Matthew 26:38). Through it all, He revealed the Father to us (John 14:9).

    "The LORD has appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved you with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn you." (Jeremiah 31:3).

    And GOD the Father was revealed through His Son Jesus Christ.

    8 "Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
    9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
    10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." (John 14:8-11).

    We know GOD created all things including those things that are invisible (Colossians 1:16). The details is not that important. Discovery of new things within our universe that GOD's Word does not talk about specifically is not the same as using human reasoning to make an attempt at understanding GOD beyond what His Word says in many places. The problem is that you are going against Scripture to paint your picture of how you want to view GOD.

    And you are not making context king within your interpretation of Scripture here.

    For when you read Philippians 1:16 you also have to read and believe at face value Philippians 2:12 that says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

    But I have sound reasons to back up what I am saying here. You are not giving a word by word commentary on Philippians 2:12. You are also discounting what God's Word says about GOD in regards to His emotions, as well. There is no Scriptural basis for saying GOD does not have emotions like we do.

    Philippians 2:12 is the context of Philippians 1:6.
    But Scripture has to also read as a whole, too. One cannot ignore another part of Scripture. That is why I brought up Corinthians.

    When one reads 1 Corinthians 10:12, that says, "take heed lest he fall."; One has to read it in context of the entirety of all of what Paul said to the Corinthians. For Paul also says,

    "Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents." (1 Corinthians 10:9).

    "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." (1 Corinthians 9:27).

    9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

    These words above do not sound like a failure of obedience with us still being saved.

    How do you define Sinless Perfection?
    Note: I do not think Sinless Perfection is a salvation issue, but it is the goal of our Sanctification within this life. Scripture is abundantly clear that we are called to perfection in this life.

    No. 1 John 1:7 says,

    "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

    In other words, one has to walk in the light of Christ in order to have His blood cleanse them.
    So your version of faith is not what the Bible teaches.
    For James describes faith like this,

    "Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

    Did you catch that?
    James is saying he will show his faith by his works.
    That is true faith.

    I can say the same for what you believe. Too many passages and words have to go ignored in order to make your belief work.

    For example, Paul says right here in verse 19 the following:

    "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things." (Philippians 3:19).

    Their end is destruction and not eternal life.
    For everyone dies, so this cannot be talking about physical death in this life.

    You are. For you imply by your own words that belief alone is what saves. For you said...

    "The fact that it is not attainable is precisely the reason why God had to create in and through Christ the means by which He could accept us, prone to sin though we might be. We are by faith clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ and that - and only that - makes us acceptable to our perfectly holy Creator. Christ is our Justifier, the One through whom we are reconciled to God and by whom we obtain a right standing before Him."​

    You are saying that even though believers are prone to sin, they still are clothed in Christ's righteousness. This is not the good works of the faith that James is talking about. Your idea is that there is a mixture of good works and bad works (sin) as a part of the faith. This is not what God's Word teaches. Whatsoever is not of the faith is sin (Romans 14:23). So sin is outside of the faith. It is not a part of one's faith. You said no believer will stop sinning this side of eternity. This means you believe sin is a part of a believer's faith because no believer can stop sinning. Yet, Romans 14:23 says sin is not of the faith.

    Not directly, but indirectly (without you realizing it) I would say... "yes" to your question here; For you said believers will not stop sinning this side of eternity.
    Yet, 1 Peter 4:1-2 says,

    "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."

    Passages like the one above have to be changed or altered beyond what they plainly say in order to make your belief work here.

    You also said we are not justified by keeping God's laws.

    Yet, Jesus says,
    "...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

    Again, you are not getting what this passage is saying. It is talking about "Initial Salvation" because we are saved by the washing and regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. This is a one time event. It's called being "born again." Just as one has a physical birth (Which is a one time event in one's life), one can also have a spiritual birth by GOD.

    No. Paul was talking about the Old Law given to the Israelites. Paul was also saying that we are not saved by Law alone (like the false Pharisee religion taught). But we are saved by faith (Which includes required works that are a part of that faith). For it is written,

    “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
    "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
    "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
    "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
    (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
    "...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
    "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
    "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
    "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
    "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
    "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
    “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).
    "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
    "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
    "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
    “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
    "...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
    “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).
    “...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22) (KJ21).
    “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

    You said believers cannot stop sinning this side of eternity (Which runs contrary to Scripture - see 1 Peter 4:1-2). You also said we are not justified by keeping the Law (Which then suggests to a person that they do not have to keep the Law as a part of God's grace to be saved).

    God's Word does not write in a way that we prefer. Sometimes the Scriptures are written in a way that is hard for many to understand. The key to understanding what Paul is truly talking about in Romans 7:14-24 is by understanding WHICH LAW Paul is talking about.

    Here are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

    #1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

    #2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

    #3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

    #4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

    #5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

    #6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

    #7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
    3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

    So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
    It was the Old Covenant Law.
    For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
    Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
    Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

    Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

    This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

    Paul says elsewhere,
    8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

    (Romans 13:8-10).

    So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
    We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

    So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


    #8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

    In Romans 8:2, we see:

    Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
    This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
    It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

    Law #2. Sin and Death.
    This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

    What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

    Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
    For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).




    Sources used for a small portions within this post:
    Does God have emotions?
    Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, the point here in Philippians 2:15 is that we are to shine as lights among a perverse nation and we are to be BLAMELESS in being sons of GOD, without rebuke. How can we shine as lights in the world and be blameless if we are also prone to sinning? For you said before that all believers are prone to sinning. How does that kind of thinking line up with Philippians 2:15? Please provide for me a word by word commentary on Philippians 2:15 in light of your statement of believers are prone to always sinning in this side of eternity? How does the word "blameless" work with that kind of thinking? How does shining as lights among the world work if we are also partaking of darkness? How can we be "without rebuke" if we are prone to sinning? It makes no sense.

    Paul gives us a clue that he is talking about his struggle with the OLD LAW (Romans 8:4) and not the NEW LAW (like the "Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" - Romans 8:2).

    In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

    The NTE version says,

    "...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

    The Good News Translation says,

    "Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

    But Romans 13:14 says,
    "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

    Paul says he is carnal and sold under sin in Romans 7:14 and yet in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

    Also, in Romans 8:3-4, it refers to Jesus crucifying the Old Law on the cross, and that righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (that still applies today) is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. The "righteousness of the Law" (i.e. righteous aspect or part of the Old Law) is the "Moral Law" or to love your neighbor (See Romans 13:8-10).

    The consequence of not doing so?

    6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:6-8).

    The word "flesh" here is in reference to them sinning.
    2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD.

    But you do not believe that such a thing is possible in this life.
    Yet, Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 7:1 say otherwise.
     
  11. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    :ok:

    ??? Not at all. I don't deny God is wrathful, jealous, pleased, sorrowful, etc. I do reject, though, the notion that when He is wrathful, jealous, and so on that He is so in more or less exactly the way we are. This is to make God human, to severely diminish Him,
    and in so doing make Him not God.

    We never manifest this fruit fully in the degree or way that God does. His Spirit conforms us over time to His character, but we never arrive at a completely perfect manifestation of the Spirit's fruit. You cannot argue, then, that the fruit of the Spirit that we might display in our lives indicates that God feels and thinks as we do any more than you could argue that a chimpanzee who is trained to behave in certain human ways (waves goodbye, shakes hands, smokes a cigarette, etc) proves that humans are just like the chimpanzee. Quite clearly the two are very different despite some superficial similarities.

    I make a distinction between joy and happiness. The latter is fundamentally circumstance-related. One is happy only so long as one's circumstances prompt happiness. But if those circumstances change, so does one's happiness. Joy, I believe, is rather different in this regard. The believer's joy is not dependent upon their circumstances, but upon their relationship with God. And since neither God nor the believer's relationship to Him ever changes, their joy ought to be constant whether circumstances warrant it or not. Joy, then, is more stable, more anchored in God, than the fleeting feelings of happiness that we may feel. It is more an experience of deep contentment, of abiding fulfillment and peace, than the momentary positive thoughts and feelings that we refer to as "happiness."

    In any case, as I said, I don't deny that God feels joy, sorrow, anger and what have you, only that when He does, it is more like our own feeling than not. I think God is far more alien, far more unlike us, than He is like us. This seems very evident to me in how the Bible describes God as being without beginning or end, existing necessarily not contingently, everywhere present, knowing all things, and so on. The more I think on these aspects of God, the more I realize just how enormously different from us He is. And this includes how He feels and what He thinks.

    ??? I don't see emotions as a sign of weakness. But what emotions we have are quite unlike those possessed of God.

    Amen!

    Um, you're jumping to mistaken conclusions here. I have not ever suggested that God has no emotions, only that He does not feel in the manner that we do.

    I don't see in the definition of agape love given by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, that love is a feeling. Instead, it looks to me like love is an action, it is something we do, not feel, the product of an exercise of one's mind and will, not emotions.

    Isaiah 55:7-9
    7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
    8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
    9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


    Isaiah is calling the unrighteous to forsake their thinking and ways and instead follow after God's far higher thoughts and ways. There is a contrast made here between the thoughts and ways of the former and the latter; the main thought is the difference between the two. But, again, I have never held the notion that God is without emotion, only that what He feels is very, very different from what we tend to think He feels when we read of God being wrathful, jealous, sad, etc in the Bible. We tend to think of everything through the lens of our own humanness but when we do that with God, we immediately go wrong.

    You might want to look up the principle of the indiscernability of identicals. While Jesus is God in nature and essence, he is not identical to God, which is what you seem to be suggesting in your reference above; for then he would be merely a manifestation of God the Father, rather than the second Person of the Trinity as Scripture says. But this manifestation view is an old heresy refuted millenia ago (see modalism or Sabellianism).

    But I am not going beyond what Scripture gives me good cause to assert about God. My analogy about the two-dimensional person trying to talk of and comprehend a four-dimensional person is a good illustration of the problems we face in trying to talk of and comprehend our Creator-God who exists in a manner wholly alien to us. Do you deny that God is profoundly different from us? Really, if anything, my analogy didn't go near far enough in showing just how different from us our God truly is. But this is always the problem with talking about God: Nothing we can use as an explanatory analogy will ever do proper justice to the truth about Him. But it doesn't hurt to try.

    And Philippians 2:13, too, then, which emphasizes and echoes what Paul wrote in Philippians 1:6 (not 16).

    Not the immediate context, it's not. And as I just pointed out, Philippians 2:12 has its own qualifying and clarifying immediate context which seems to me to muck up the works-salvation you're trying to establish from verse 12.

    You seem to be mistaking this patchwork assembly of doctrine, called proof-texting, with proper biblical hermeneutics. They aren't the same and neither are their results.

    What Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 10:12 he explains in the verses immediately surrounding the verse. You don't have to go to distant chapters or other books entirely to understand exactly what he meant. Now, you can double-check that you've understood him correctly by assessing what you believe he has said in the light of the rest of Scripture, but it is a recipe for doctrinal disaster to think that the best understanding of what Paul has said in one passage can be found in things he wrote in completely separate letters concerning totally different matters.

    It does not follow that because a particular goal is set for us by God in Scripture that we must and will achieve it, or that He expects we will. What Scripture teaches us is that in our spiritual position in Christ, we are already fully sanctified and justified (Romans 3:24; Romans 5:1; Romans 5:9; Romans 8:30; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:10; Jude 1:1, etc.), we are, in a forensic sense, declared perfect by God, because of our union with Christ by the new birth we have through the regenerating and indwelling Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9-11). It is because this is so - and only because this is so - that we are reconciled to God and accepted by Him.

    Well, of course, I disagree. I also think you have not shown what you assert here at all. Why in the world would John talk of walking in the light and then follow that right up with "and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin"? Why would those walking in the light need cleansing from sin? If they're in the light, why would this be an issue at all? Could it be because John is not talking about perfectly holy living when he uses the phrase "walking in the light"? That seems quite evident to me.

    A baby learning to walk does not typically do so in a totally darkened room. Hopefully, when the baby is in a totally dark room, it is sleeping. When the baby is awake, it is in a lighted room and, when it is old enough, in such a room it begins to try to walk. It grabs the edge of the couch or the hands of its parents and stands, wobbling, for a few moments. But because it is a very young child, it is still weak and soon plops on its bottom on the ground. As the little one learns to walk, there is a lot of wobbling, and stumbling and falling. And it all happens - usually - in the light. Being in the light and stumbling and falling are not mutually exclusive things in the process of the young child learning to stand and walk. So, too, with the Christian believer. Walking in the light and stumbling and falling are not mutually-exclusive things. There will be no standing and walking in the light without the struggle and failures that are necessary to learning to do both things.

    The term "walking" implies a persistent action, an action that continues over time; it does not carry the sense of a one-time event. So, then, the believer who stumbles and falls into sin but who follows the command of Scripture and gets up and continues on with God is walking in the light. It is the one who claims fidelity to Christ, who claims to be truly born-again, but who lives persistently (and comfortably) in sin who is not walking in the light but walking in sin.

    John does not say in 1 John 1:7 that walking in the light is the means to being cleansed by the shed blood of Christ, as you assert. It's quite the other way 'round. In order to walk in the light, the cleansing blood of Christ is required. We can't do the former without having the latter first applied. This is what John means and says quite clearly. "And" does not mean "in order to."

    Yes, full, saving faith, always manifests in a corresponding action. But faith must always precede its corresponding action and so, for a span of time, may even exist without it. It is evident, then, that while faith and works are inextricably related, they are not identical. And Scripture is absolutely clear that works do not have the salvific effect of faith (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-6), but merely offer tangible evidence of it. An apple tree is not an apple tree by the fruit it bears; it can only bear such fruit if it is first an apple tree. Very young or very undernourished apple trees may not bear fruit at all but they are still apples trees.

    Yes, but as I pointed out, Paul does indicate that those whose "god is their belly" were once believers. Insofar as he does not make such a clarification, it appears that he is talking only of the lost and their ultimate, eternal punishment.

    Not at all. It is your tendency to see things in terms of false dichotomies that is at work here. I don't think that sin is a "part of the faith." It is acting contrary to the faith, in fact. This is obvious. But our doing bad things no more precludes doing good things than rainy weather precludes sunny weather. The weather changes, being good at one point and bad at another. But I don't think, therefore, that rainy weather is sunny weather or vice versa, just as I don't think that sinful behaviour is righteous behaviour. So, no I don't think of the Christian faith as a "mixture of good works and bad works." Bad works are enacted contrary to the faith. But this doesn't mean that the born-again believer ceases to be of the faith when he does bad things any more than the weather ceases to be the weather when it turns rainy and cold.

    As I just explained, sin is enacted contrary to the faith, but this doesn't mean when a believer sins that their adoption into God's family is immediately void. That's like saying that because you got annoyed with your biological parent or broke one of their rules that you are therefore disowned and your biological connection to your parents is dissolved. That's just silly. And it's equally as silly to think this is the case with our relationship to our Heavenly Father, too. See the Parable of the Prodigal Son.

    You're committing the "Is-Ought" fallacy here. Acknowledging that sin will plague the steps of every believer until they go home to be with God is not the same as saying "we ought to escape God moral laws." That a thing is a certain way does not always mean it ought to be that way. If your neighbor's dog is on fire, does it follow that it ought to be on fire?

    No. Not at all. In fact, this verse suggests that ceasing from sin is not immediate upon one's conversion. It seems, according to Peter, that God uses suffering to perfect His children. And that suffering takes time after which the believer is more fully sanctified (1 Peter 5:10). You'll note, too, that Peter does not say that the believer who has suffered has ceased from all sin. And this accords with what Paul wrote about moving along a continuum of change toward greater and greater sanctification. (Philippians 3:12-13) So, no, my understanding of salvation and the Christian life is not in error but solidly rooted in Scripture.

    Does this say justification is obtained by keeping the law? Nope. Again, you're reading into the verse what is not there. And Paul is very plain about excluding works from our justification:

    Romans 3:24-28
    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus.
    27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


    Romans 3:20
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


    They don't. But they still ought to live in obedience to God's commands. Not out of fear of lost salvation, but out of the better, more potent, motive of love for God which fulfills the First and Great Commandment of the faith. (Matthew 22:36-38) Good works are explicitly and totally excluded from the saving work of God. Works-salvation is totally contrary to the plain teaching of God's word. As has been often said, "One does not earn a gift." (John 3:16) Oh, sure, one may try to do so, as you seem determined to do, but this is always an insult to the giver of the gift and mistakes entirely why the gift has been given.

    Not with a sound and effective hermeneutic - and the illumination of God's Spirit.

    How does this mean Paul is speaking of his past connection to Pharisaism? Most Jews of Paul's time - Pharisee or not - were in some measure bound and obedient to the Mosaic law. Paul's reference to the law, then, has no necessary connection to being a Pharisee. The law and keeping it was a fundamental part of Jewish culture. Your first point here doesn't, then, accomplish your purpose.

    Nothing you say in your second point establishes that Paul was speaking in Romans 7 of his life as a Pharisee. You've just offered a rather jumbled and confused apologetic for your works-salvation doctrine.

    Point 3 in your list of points also fails to establish that Paul was speaking of his past as a Pharisee. There are many mistakes you make in your thinking and interpretation - more than I want to wade into at the moment. There is one glaring mistake, though:

    Romans 6:23
    23 For the wages of sin is death...


    I haven't time right now to go into the remainder of what you've written regarding Romans 7. If I have time later I may finish responding to your points. So far, though, the points I have looked at don't accomplish your goal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    While it is true that GOD has the capacity to express and feel emotions on a more intense and higher level, that does not mean we cannot have the same feelings that GOD has if we allow Him to move within our life. We can share in GOD's feelings to an extent or in a certain capacity. But we can feel the emotion of love like GOD can feel the emotion of love. In other words, it is not incorrect to say that we can have the love of God within us. For Scripture says,

    "And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us" (Romans 5:5).

    GOD is not diminished if we share in the same emotion that He has. In fact, a believer has the fruits of the Spirit. So a believer manifests GOD living in them. So I believe we can share in God's emotions if we allow Him into our life. But can we love all people in existence right now perfectly knowing who each of them are? No. But we can love those people who do come into our life (Including our enemies). For with GOD, nothing is impossible.

    Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). Paul says cleanse yourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD (2 Corinthians 7:1). So there is a perfection that GOD calls us to fulfill in this life. Will it be exactly the same perfection that GOD has? No. GOD is uniquely holy and righteous on a higher level than us. But that does not mean we cannot manifest a portion of GOD's love or other emotions within our life. So when Paul talks about having the fruits of the Spirit that is not a lie. We do have actual fruits of the Spirit. These are not our fruits. Are you saying the fruits of the Spirit in a believer's life are not the fruits of the Spirit but they are the believer's fruits? Jesus says we will know a tree by it's fruit. He said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit (Matthew 7:18). The key to understanding this is that it is GOD or Christ who does the good fruit or work through a believer's life and it is not exclusively our own.

    You are saying the word “happy” is something that is purely circumstantial; But Proverbs 16:20 talks about being happy if we trust in the Lord, and 1 Peter 4:14 talks about us believers being happy if we are reproached for Christ’s sake.

    "He that handleth a matter wisely shall find good: and whoso trusteth in the LORD, happy is he." (Proverbs 16:20).

    "If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified." (1 Peter 4:14).​

    GOD describes His love as being a selfless love. Some of God's people have manifested this love. Granted, they have not manifested this love to the farthest extent that God is capable of because no man so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, but I would not say that the emotion of "love" is foreign to God's people. Also, a believer can only be like GOD in behavior (not fully but to an extent) if they are born again and transformed by the Holy Spirit. They can only be like GOD in behavior (not fully but to an extent) if they submit to His righteous and good ways within His Word by His power and not our own. So to say that God is alien and unlike the faithful believer is not really true. A faithful believer would be in submission to GOD and shining the light of the LORD unto others (Who lives inside of them).

    As for circumstantial happiness: Well, I believe circumstances can be God directed to lead you to do those things that are within the faith. Obviously admiring the creation GOD gave us is good, but it should not be our focus of our lives. Living the faith (i.e. preaching the gospel, helping the poor, loving the brethren, praying and doing good towards one's enemies, live holy and separate from the world, etc.) is what GOD calls us to do as a part of partaking in God's will (Which brings true happiness). For when we are in God's will, we are happy. The Bible clearly tells us what we are to do in this life so as to align with His will. Granted, there are different roles to an extent, but I believe every believer should do the basics of the faith (like preach the gospel, help the poor, love one's enemies, live holy, be separate from the world, etc.).

    Yes, GOD's emotions operate on a higher level than man is even capable of, but that does not mean we cannot to some capacity share in His emotions.
    That does not mean that we cannot love like God can. For Jesus was the God man and He showed us how to love perfectly.

    That is good to hear.

    No they are not. We can share in the emotions GOD has. Again, it is not on the same level or intensity, but we can share to some extent or level in God's emotions here in this life. We can walk perfectly with GOD and allow the Lord to shine through our life. We can have confidence in the words of Paul when he said,

    "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." (Philippians 1:21).

    In other words, how can one say they are living the life of Christ if they are living imperfect or not being a conduit for the Lord entirely?

    I say this because you said before that a believer will not stop sinning this side of eternity.
    But is this really the correct view to have?
    Does an alcoholic join a drug program with the same attitude?
    Does he join with the intention that he will not give up his sin of alcoholism?

    Well, I did not get the above explanation or words clarifying this point before. By what you said before, it sounded like you were saying that God has no emotions. But now that you have cleared this point up for me, we can move on again beyond this topic (I hope).

    I don't think you get it, my friend.
    One's proper emotions with God (emotional love towards God) leads to one properly loving in action.

    For we read in Scripture of the woman (Mary) who would not stop kissing Jesus's feet who was forgiven much. No doubt she asked the Lord's forgiveness and was forgiven of her many sins. Her tears (Which is a product of emotion of love and gratitude) had led her to kiss Christ's feet continually (i.e. love in action).

    45 "Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
    46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
    47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little" (Luke 7:45-47).

    No. Again, read verse 7. It says, "Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts." The context is sin or unrighteousness in Isaiah. Nowhere does the context in Isaiah support your idea that God’s ways are totally foreign to us whereby we cannot share in God’s emotions or feelings. Again, one of the fruits of the Spirit is joy or happiness. This means we can share in God’s emotions to some capacity.

    Well, I am actually strongly against Modalism and have argued against it several times in the past.

    I believe in the Trinity.

    For the Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

    Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God (i.e. there are distinct persons within the Trinity).

    Here are a couple of quick points:

    #1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
    #2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
    #3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
    #4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
    #5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
    #6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
    #7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).

    The Trinity is told to us clearly and directly in one verse.

    “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7).

    Romans 1:20 says,
    "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

    However, Scripture also teaches that each person of the Trinity can dwell within one another, as well. This is what Jesus means when He says, "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." (John 14:10).

    Yes, I believe that either before the creation of the world or in the Incarnation: Christ suppressed His power of Omniscience (i.e. to have all knowledge as a part of being GOD) to be a like type or figure of Adam, but Jesus has always had power as God. Jesus did this in order to be our substitute on the cross for sin.

    On the other hand, what many will not admit is that:

    Jesus had power as God:
    (During His Earthly Ministry):

    #1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
    #2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
    #3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
    #4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
    #5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
    #6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
    #7. Jesus received worship as God (Matthew 28:9). In none of the times the Bible describes Jesus being worshiped did He ever tell them to stop, unlike with the time when Peter refused worship and the angel refused John bowing down to him (See Acts of the Apostles 10:25-26; Revelation 19:9-10).

    While GOD is bigger and more amazing than we can comprehend, I don't believe GOD is foreign as you say. For it is written,

    "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God." (James 2:23).

    Friends are not foreign to each other.
    We can be God's friends by obeying Him.
    For Jesus says,
    "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." (John 15:14).

    While GOD is different from us in many ways (For example: He is the Creator who is all powerful, all knowing, everywhere present, worthy of worship, and who cannot be looked upon without dying, etc.), we are also made in the image of GOD. God is spirit. Yet, we also have a spirit. God has a human like form just as we do. Moses seen God's back parts. This means God has a back. We humans also have a back. Also, God has emotions. We have emotions. These emotions are the same. Love, anger, sorrow, etc. God is three in one (i.e. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost). We are three in one (i.e. soul, spirit, and body).

    You are basically just shaking your head in disagreement with your words and you are not actually showing me with Scripture WHY I am wrong to point out verse 12 to you that says,

    "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).

    First, why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? Second, there are many passages that talk about how we are to fear GOD in the rest of the Bible. "The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate." (Proverbs 8:13). "Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD. What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good? Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile. Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it." (Psalms 34:11-14). "The fear of the Lord is this: wisdom. And to turn from evil is understanding." (Job 28:28).

    No. Again, you are ignoring the immediate context.

    The context of 1 Corinthians 10:12 says, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." (1 Corinthians 9:27).

    "But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness." (1 Corinthians 10:5).

    To get a clearer picture of what 1 Corinthians 10:5 is saying, let's look at Hebrews 3; For it says,

    8 "Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
    9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
    10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
    11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
    12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
    13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:8-14).

    There is no such thing as being forever sanctified (saved) and having position in Christ no matter what we do. Let's take a look at just the first two verses to see if you are looking at these verses correctly.

    Okay you mentioned Romans 3:24 to prove that we are positionally forever saved in Christ.
    Well, first, nowhere does this verse (nor anywhere in Romans 3) say we are positionally in Christ and forever saved. Second, Romans 3:24 is talking about "Initial Salvation" because Romans 3:1 says this,

    "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

    Circumcision is what the Old Testament required as a part of the Old Law to be initially accepted as a part of God's nation of Israel. If one refused circumcision, they could not be a part of God's people. Granted, there were other exceptions to be initially saved for a Gentile like with the Ninevites repenting without any mention of circumcision. But if a Gentile was to be saved by a Jew directly, they had to be circumcised according to the Law to be saved generally. Paul is saying that this is no longer the way. The Old Law is no more. For the law has changed (See Hebrews 7:12). The key back then as it is today is.... faith. We have to believe and take action in what GOD says (i.e. His Word).

    As for Romans 5:1:
    Here we go again. Romans 5:1 is also talking about "Initial Salvation", as well. Verse 2 (the immediate context makes this point clear).

    Romans 5:1-2
    1 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace..."

    How do we have access by faith into this grace?

    "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" (1 John 2:1).

    For...

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

    No. You are not reading it right. Read it again. 1 John 1:7 clearly says, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

    Part 1. IF we walk in the light. (Condition).
    Part 2. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. (The Result).

    So one has to walk in the light in order to have the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse us from all sin. This is how one would read this sentence normally.

    For example: If I said, if you take out the trash, then your house will not smell and it will be less prone to have bugs and insects in it.

    Part 1. If you take out your trash (Condition).
    Part 2. House will not smell and it will be less prone to have bugs and insects. (The Result).

    Yes, it does. We see this truth expressed elsewhere in Scripture. Even in the immediate context.

    For 1 John 2:3-4 says,
    3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

    Is one keeping His commandments if they admit that they will just break them again at some unknown future date? Is an alcoholic free from his sin of alcoholism if he admits that he will never stop drinking?

    Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

    Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5-6 are talking about "Initial Salvation."

    Ephesians 2:1 says,
    "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

    Jesus quickened us believers when we first initially repented of our sins towards Him as a part of coming to the faith for the first time.

    Titus 3:5 says,
    "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

    The washing of regeneration and RENEWING of the Holy Ghost he saved us (past tense) and not saving us is in reference to a one time event of when we first accepted Christ. We are washed and renewed in the in the Holy Ghost after accepting Christ. This is talking about "Initial Salvation" here.

    Philippians 3:19 that talks about how GOD is their belly is proof that one is not positionally forever saved in Christ. For we know that a person can change their mind in being faithful. A believer can sin and get caught up in sinful things (making God their belly). We see in the Parable of the Prodigal Son that a son can walk away from the father. It is up to us to return back home or not by getting fed up with our sin. The father did not pull the son out of his lifestyle of sin and force him back home.

    The Bible teaches that serious sin is separation from GOD,

    [God said to Adam,]
    "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

    [Eve said to the serpent,]
    "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

    And the serpent said unto the woman,
    "Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

    "...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

    "For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

    "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

    “...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
    (Matthew 5:22).

    28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
    29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
    30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

    “But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

    “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

    Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

    “22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
    23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

    “26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
    (Matthew 7:26-27).

    “15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

    "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

    "he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

    "everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

    "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts 8:22).

    6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

    "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

    "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

    "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

    "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

    41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
    42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

    "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

    3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
    4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

    "...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
    (James 4:6).

    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

    16 "There is a sin unto death..."
    17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

    19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

    5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
    6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
    7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

    I am glad you brought up the Parable of the Prodigal Son. It is actually proof against what you believe. For when the prodigal son returned home, his father said two times that his son was "dead" and is "alive again." These words within this parable are speaking in spiritual terms (of course). The son was dead spiritually when he was in riotous sinful living and when he returned back home to his father (willing to repent), he was made spiritually alive again.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  13. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    It is a human thing to speak of "having feelings." Does God, who is not a human, have feelings in the same way we do? I don't think so. What God feels is not just more intense but likely almost entirely alien to us and higher in such a degree that, again, we cannot even begin to truly understand it. We have to talk in terms we can understand - human terms - when it comes to God but, really, this means we will never approach the full scope of what He actually feels.

    So, can we feel as God does? No. We aren't omnipotent, infinite, spirit beings existing uncaused, perfect in character, nature and circumstance. We might, in some highly superficial way, share certain emotions with God but, again, we do so in such a shallow measure that it seems to me silly to say that we feel what God does.

    First of all, love is not an emotion. It is fundamentally a self-sacrificing act of the will. And Romans 5:5 is not speaking of an emotion but of a Person. Agape love is God, not a feeling He experiences. (1 Jn. 4:16)

    Exactly. Love, godly love, is a Person, not an emotion.

    No.

    "Alien" has essentially the same meaning as "different," but in a stronger degree. You admit here that no believer is ever fully like God which agrees with the truth that He is different, or alien. A guppy and a whale shark are both aquatic creatures - they both have gills, fins, tails, etc - but they are still very different from each other. So, while a Christian may share some superficial similarities to God, he is no more like God than a guppy is like a whale shark.


    It sounded as it did to you, not because of anything that I wrote, but because of the filters of your thinking, personality, etc through which you are passing what you're reading. I did not imply or explicitly state that God had no emotions; I wouldn't because, as I said, I don't believe such a thing. I comment on this, not to nitpick, but to point to a problem that seems to run through all of what you've written. You jump to a great many conclusions and operate from presuppositions quite a lot. Strangely, you seem loathe to admit it.

    I wrote:

    But what emotions we have are quite unlike those possessed of God.

    You replied:

    No they are not. We can share in the emotions GOD has. Again, it is not on the same level or intensity, but we can share to some extent or level in God's emotions here in this life.

    Here's a good example of you filtering what I'm saying through your own biases and assumptions. I did not write, "We can't share in the emotions of God." But this is how you filtered - and changed - what I wrote. And then, because your position as you first stated it (we can share in the emotions of God) is entirely untenable, you immediately qualify it and end up at least partially agreeing with me: "It is not on the same level or intensity, but we can share to some extent..." Well, this acknowledges that our emotions are not like those possessed of God. As you say, we are not on the same level with God emotionally. Not even close. It seems to me here that you are so keen not to agree with me that you will disagree even when at bottom you don't really disagree at all. This doesn't seem to me like the thinking and behaviour of an honest seeker after truth...

    This is no where stated in Scripture. It certainly isn't what Paul laid out in his chapter on the matter of godly love.

    What prompted the strong emotions that she felt? Did she just come to have them in a vacuum of reason to do so? Or did she comprehend (with her mind) the truth of who Jesus was, and her own deep sinfulness, and understood the greatness of his love (and forgiveness) of her? It seems very obvious to me that it wasn't feeling that initiated her action but knowledge and the positive response of her mind and heart to it. Looks to me, then, like you're the one who doesn't "get it."

    Human friends are not foreign to each other, no. But, as I've pointed out now several times, God is not a human. His nature is entirely alien to us. We have no idea what it is to be omniscient, or to be without a beginning, or to exist in a state of perfection. We can extrapolate and imagine, but both efforts are acutely constrained by our finiteness and ignorance. So, God may be our friend, but this does not mean we understand Him as we do other human beings. He remains very foreign to us whatever feelings of friendly affection we have for Him and vice versa. I had a pet dog when I was a child. I was his friend and he treated me as one of his pack. We got on very well. Although we could be described as friends, my dog had no idea what it was to be a human. He could not understand justice, or philosophy, or art, or morality; he could not think or feel on the same level as I did despite my friendship with him.

    The trembling is not that produced by the fear of lost salvation, but, as I've already said, by the knowledge of the awesomeness of God. It is the trembling of reverential awe, not the trembling of one who fears punishment. And this is borne out by what Paul wrote only a couple of verses earlier of the awesome supremacy of Jesus before whom every knee will bow (Philippians 2:9-11). Jesus' supreme authority is in view in Paul's words, not punishment or the fear of what might be lost. One might also ask why one would tremble in fear of lost salvation if God has given believers both the desire and ability to do His will? (Philippians 2:13) If God gives every believer both of these things, they can work out their own salvation with high confidence, assured that the peerless Saviour before whom every knee must someday bend is supporting them as they do. It seems very evident to me, then, that your idea that verse twelve warns of lost salvation is entirely wrong.

    Actually, better renderings of this verse are available:

    1 Corinthians 9:27 (YLT)
    27 but I chastise my body, and bring it into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others--I myself may become disapproved.

    1 Corinthians 9:27 (NASB)
    27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

    1 Corinthians 9:27 (NKJV)
    27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.


    "Disapproved," and "disqualified" do not lend themselves as easily to a saved-and-lost doctrine as "castaway" seems to. These alternate renderings of the word "adokimos" (not standing the test) are in better keeping with the athletics-related analogy Paul is using. They speak of failing to reach a standard or goal, not of losing something one already possesses.

    Were the Israelites who were consigned to the wilderness to wander and die disowned by God? No. They remained God's Chosen People despite having disbelieved and angered Him. What, then, of taking a saved-and-lost doctrine from these verses? The unbelieving Israelites never enjoyed the Land of Promise, but this did not mean their relationship with Jehovah was dissolved. I don't see, then, that Paul was intending his readers to interpret his words as you have.

    And, again, it was not necessary to go to a different book entirely to understand Paul's meaning in the verse from 1 Corinthians 10. He explained his purpose in referring to the failure and wilderness wandering of the Israelites in the very next verse:

    1 Corinthians 10:6
    6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.


    Not exactly the point you were trying to make from Hebrews 3...

    Really? That's not what the Bible says...

    1 Corinthians 1:2 (NKJV)
    2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

    Hebrews 10:14
    14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.


    There are two kinds of sanctification spoken of in these verses. The first is our complete sanctification in Christ: "...are sanctified (past tense, already accomplished) in Christ Jesus..." Then there is the second progressive sanctification that is worked out in our daily living. The first positional sanctification the writer of Hebrews describes as being "perfected forever" by Christ's sacrificial offering of himself for us. The second kind of sanctification is the progressive ("...are being sanctified..." - continuing in the present) working out of our perfected position in Christ in our everyday experience. It is quite clear from these verses that there is such a thing as being sanctified forever, positionally, in Christ.

    No, I offered this verse in support of the biblical teaching that every believer is fully justified by Christ and his redemptive work on the cross:

    Romans 3:24
    24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,


    I'm not following you here at all. What does any of this stuff about circumcision in the OT have to do with a verse that is twenty three verses removed from the verse in question (Romans 3:24) and that never uses the phrase "initial salvation"?

    Also, as I have pointed out before, there is no such doctrine as "initial salvation" taught anywhere in the Bible. One is born again spiritually or one is not. A person's spiritual birth is a one-time event, not a process which is what the term "initial" implies.

    I'm not at all clear on what you mean by "initial salvation." Perhaps you are using the word "initial" in an unusual way. Regardless, Romans 5:2 is referring to Christ, spoken of in the verse just before. He is the means of access ("...by whom...") into the grace in which we stand. What is astonishing to me is that you went to another book entirely (again), written by another author entirely, to try and interpret what Paul wrote. He says, though, in verse 2 exactly what he is referring to! In any case, I have no idea still what you mean by "initial salvation" and how Romans 5:1-2 are support for it.

    I wrote:

    John does not say in 1 John 1:7 that walking in the light is the means to being cleansed by the shed blood of Christ, as you assert..."And" does not mean "in order to."

    You replied:

    Yes, it does. We see this truth expressed elsewhere in Scripture. Even in the immediate context.

    For 1 John 2:3-4 says,
    3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


    Verses in the next chapter are not what I would call "immediate context." The verses both right before and right after a verse are its immediate context.

    You wrote:

    Is one keeping His commandments if they admit that they will just break them again at some unknown future date? Is an alcoholic free from his sin of alcoholism if he admits that he will never stop drinking?

    Recognizing that one is not perfect and never will be this side of eternity is not tantamount to living persistently and willfully in sin. This seems very obvious to me... A bowler may not always get a strike every time he bowls, but this doesn't mean he is not trying to do so, or that he never bowls a strike, or that he is not a bowler.

    You wrote:

    Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

    Yes, and? Had Jesus already died his atoning death on the cross when he said this to the Rich Young Ruler? No.

    No such doctrine exists in Scripture.

    Hold on. This isn't what the verse says. There is no "initially repented of our sins" in verse 2! And there is no "as part of coming to faith for the first time," either! These are your additions to what Paul wrote; they are not what he actually wrote. You've got to stop with the eisegesis. It's really messing with your understanding of Scripture!

    What is "initial" about it? Salvation is a fully accomplished fact. And this is why Paul does not write, "...but according to his mercy he initially saved us..." or "but according to his mercy he just sorta' started the first bit of saving us..."

    The verse says no such thing. Paul gives no indication in the verse or its context that he is referring to believers who had lost their salvation. He is talking of the unsaved, not the once-saved.

    Yes, they can. But is it to such believers that Paul is referring in Philippians 3:19? There is absolutely no basis for saying so in the text itself. The verse, then, as it stands, says nothing about being saved-and-lost. That is something you must read into (as opposed to drawing out of) Paul's words.

    Yet, he never ceased to be his father's son.

    Was the son actually dead? No. Was he no longer his father's son? No. Even if he had physically expired, he would still have been the son of his father. In relation to what, then, was the son "dead"? Very obviously, the son was dead to his father insofar as their fellowship was concerned. The Prodigal's departure meant that he and his father could not relate to one another in a familial way, they could not enjoy fellowship with one another. And when the Prodigal returns, it is this fellowship that is restored (the father throws his wayward son a party). This is exactly in accord with the OSAS view and the rest of Scripture. No child of God who wanders from God into sin loses their relationship to their heavenly Father, only their fellowship with Him. And God is eager to restore his wandering children to fellowship with Himself whenever they desire it. The ultimate lesson of the parable is God's incredible love and grace, not that a believer can lose his salvation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. If I put gasoline in my car the contents do not change if I put them into a bigger tank. You are expecting me to believe that gasoline changes if it is put into a larger container. Let me give you an example: Is it possible for you to love a little? If so, does the emotion of love change if you love a little vs. if you love a lot? No. It is still the emotion of love (regardless to the level or extent that you may love).

    I never said we feel the full capacity of God's emotions for all beings in the universe. But that does not mean we cannot feel the emotions that come from God (even if they may be at a lower level that we can tolerate). They are still the emotions of love, joy, peace, etc.

    Do you actually believe such non-sense?
    Real life, the dictionary and the Bible says otherwise.
    Real life teaches us that when we marry our wives, we do so because we have a strong affection for them emotionally.
    The dictionary says,
    4 "Affection; kind feeling; friendship; strong liking"
    Source: Love | Definition of Love by Webster's Online Dictionary
    The Bible says, "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts" (Romans 5:5).
    Actions are not shed abroad in our hearts but an emotion of love is shed abroad in our hearts that then moves us to take loving action.

    The love of God is shed abroad in their hearts. This is God for God is love. This involves having a feeling of the love of God within one's heart for people that moves a person to action. If their is no emotional feeling or affection for a person, then they are not going to do anything for them. They will be cold and indifferent. If they are obeying without really having any affection for them then they are going through the motions and they are a robot or cold and methodical with no real heart or care about why they are doing.

    Jesus says, "But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you." (John 5:42).
    The love of God is not just God but it is also His love or emotions that moves a person to take action. For do you not take actions out of love based on your affection for a person or someone? Are we not moved emotionally by the love of Jesus to then act upon what He says for us to do?

    As for 1 John 4:16: Yes, you will find examples of the word "love" being tied to an action. That is what the emotion of love will lead one to take. Having affection for God and others leads one to take loving actions. But again, the fruits of the Spirit are describing emotions and actions mixed together.

    But the fruit of the Spirit is:

    1. Love (starts out as affection or an emotion and moves towards loving actions),
    2. Joy (this is happiness which is an emotion),
    3. Peace (this is an emotion of love towards others that leads to peaceful actions),
    4. Long-suffering (being long-suffering towards others is based on the emotion of love),
    5. Gentleness (one is gentle or kind with others because they have an affection or love for them, i.e. an emotion),
    6. Goodness (one is good, righteous, or obedient to God's commands because they have an affection or an emotion in loving God and in loving others; For if we do not have an affection for God and or others, how can we expect to truly do anything loving for them?),
    7. Faith (in the "Parable of the Sower" we learn that they received the seed of the Word of God with joy; Joy is an emotion),
    8 Meekness (Humility or being humble begins with the right state of mind and heart in wanting to please God genuinely; We learn in the Parable of the Tax Collector that the tax collector was humble because he cried out to God to have mercy on his sins. This no doubt involved a Godly sorrow or emotion),
    9. Temperance (self control is out of one's affection or love for another).

    No. Love is both GOD (a person) and an emotion. GOD has feelings of love and affection for mankind (that is of course followed by the natural fruit or actions). We can share to some capacity in this emotion that also moves us to take loving actions.

    As for the argument for Eternal Security: I do not think it holds any weight or water and I am getting the feeling from GOD that what I say with Scripture will not help you currently in regards to this topic.

    May God bless you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    In Ephesians it is written that everyone is subject to/of the prince of the power of the air (the devil), even though they actually think they are making their own choices each day (but they aren't).
    Then in Galatians it is written that all society is pernicious (evil and seeking evil - death dealing- trying to drag everyone down with them in death),
    then in Revelation it is written that all society refuses to stop worshiping demons.

    Obviously (and as written) the elect, the chosen, the ones born again, called by God and set apart by Him for Himself, are not continuing enslaved to the devil nor worshiping demons.

    And , it is written, God says "Choose today who to serve".....

    And since God's Word is always truth, and cannot be false, and God never contradicts Himself.....

    it may remain a paradox, or a mystery of sorts....
     
  16. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Just checking - I thought I read somewhere (in Scripture; I don't remember where) that believers can (and ought to) speed up His return....

    is that "as if", or just in a way of thinking, like relative, or some other way ?
     
  17. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    No matter what we do, God has a set time for Jesus' return.
    I see 2 Peter 3:12 as something like David when God told him He was going to establish the rule of David's house.
    Then David prayed for God to do just that.
     
  18. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,942
    Anabaptist
    2 Peter 3:12 - Bible Gateway
    2 Peter 3:12 - Bible Gateway
    while we anticipate and help to speed up the coming of the day of God, when the atmosphere will be set on fire and the heavenly bodies consumed in a blaze. RSV. waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire!
     
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