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Featured Libertarian freewill vs limited freewill

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Doug Melven, Jan 11, 2018.

  1. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    I myself am a believer that we have complete freewill.
    God does not make choices for us.
    He knows all of the choices we will make.
    He urges us to make the correct choice, choose Him and live.
    If we choose anything besides Him, down that road is death. Proverbs 14:12

    I do believe God is in control. I do not believe He is in total control.
    Once God gave Adam dominion over the Earth, He gave control to Adam and he messed everything up for all of us.
    God could not just say that He didn't like what Adam did and take back control from Adam.
    He gave control to a man, and it would take a Man to take it back. So when the time was right, Jesus Christ came and took that authority back. Matthew 28:19
    People sin against God's will.
    People die and go to Hell against God's will.
    Someone will probably say but God creates the wicked for destruction.
    Revelation says that the Lake of fire was created for the Devil and his angels.
    Man was never meant to go to the LOF.
    But, he will go if he doesn't repent and believe the Gospel.

    I have heard Calvinists say man has limited freewill.
    Could someone show me what limited freewill looks like.
     
  2. Wayholka

    Wayholka A saved wolf among sheep. Supporter

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    I personally think that God foresaw how we all would be and how we would interact with each other and carefully positioned all of us throughout history to create the best possible outcome His plan could create like a Rube Goldberg machine.
     
  3. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    The Scriptures say there is an appointed day of death for certain people. God determines this day. Granted, we can hasten our death by doing stupid and sinful things, but if God wants to keep us alive, He certainly has power to do so. For God can prevent a person from getting in a car accident by making us to drop our car keys or He can bring us back from the dead. Yes, we do have free will choices, but I also believe God can and does work all things together for good to those who love God (Whether it may appear to be bad things in our life or good things).

    I believe the Calvinist's beliefs do not make any sense. There are various different versions of Calvinism and most Calvinists I have talked with over the years are not forthcoming in telling you what they believe in detail. I only had one Calvinist tell me his beliefs in detail because he mistakenly thought I was open to Calvinism (When such was not the case).
     
  4. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    Does Man Have Free Will?

    Free will is defined in a few different ways. Here is one of it's definitions.

    Free will (Noun) - The ability to act at one's own discretion.

    http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...sh/free%2Bwill

    In fact, the origin of the word "will" is especially important to look at, too. It says this..

    Will (Verb) - To wish, desire, want, to will, or to choose.

    Online Etymology Dictionary

    Now, how can you have the desire for anything or to choose differently if you did not have the free choice (i.e. free will) to choose or to not to choose in the first place?

    Anyways, here is a list of the different types of Free Will that I hope you shall consider.

    The Three different types of Free Will:

    #1. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Type Free Will.
    #2. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will.
    #3. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will.​

    And the hypothetical Free Will that does not exist for any being within our universe.
    Which is...


    #1. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will.​

    A. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Free Will:
    All non-believers or people who have not genuinely accepted Christ as their Savior are slaves to sin in some way. Now, this does not mean that unbelievers are not capable of making limited free will choices that are correct or good for their own well being (like choosing not to murder, steal, fornicate, or do drugs). However, on the other hand they are limited in their free will in the sense that they are slaves to sin and will have some type of sin within their life that separates them from God.

    B. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will:
    All true believers in Christ or those who genuinely accept Jesus as their Savior are set free from being a slave to sin. This gives the believer a higher level of free will than that of a non-believer who is incapable of not sinning habitually. Now, does this mean that the believer does not have the free will to no longer sin anymore? No, most certainly not. It just means that they are no longer bound to sin anymore and are given a higher status of limited free will (or limited choices). They are also not forced against their free will to have a continued salvation or to still be a believer in Christ if they decide to change their minds, too. They still must choose each day to serve the Lord or to not serve the Lord. For a believer can forfeit his or her salvation if they do not live for Christ and become a new creature; Thus, showing that they were born again.

    C. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will:
    God is limited to doing only that which is good and right. For God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. God is love and in Him is no evil. He is the very embodiment of all that is Holy, just, perfect, and good in this life. For there is none good but God. In other words, God is incapable of doing any type of evil or sin. He is perfect and good in every way. His limitation is that He can only do that which is good and right. Which of course is a good limitation to have. So praise be to our God for being all that is loving and good.

    D. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will:
    No being in the universe has absolute or ultimate free will. For if absolute free will existed, then there would have to be a being who could do whatever they wanted whether good or evil with no restrictions or consequences attached whatsoever. In other words, this concept of Free Will is purely imaginary because no being possesses this type of Free Will type characteristics.

    In other words, It is not God's will or desire that you sin and reject Him. Yes, you are under His creation, sovereign rule, and divine plan (because the Lord can work both good and evil for His purposes), but God does not approve of someone doing evil as if it was His approved of will or desire for your life. God is good. Not evil.

    For the moment you take away free will (not ultimate free will) is the moment you make God responsible for directly creating evil and sin. However, there is no darkness in God at all. God created free willed beings that made the decision to be evil and to sin. God did not force Adam and Eve to rebel. They had a choice to either choose life or to choose death. They chose death. Not because God wanted them to. It was because they wanted to choose death.
     
  5. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take. If you choose the red pill, it will lead you into seeking the truth. If you choose the blue pill, you can believe, whatever you want to believe.

    Free Will in the Bible:

    #1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
    "Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

    #2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
    "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

    #3. John 7:17 KJV -
    "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

    #4. John 7:37 KJV -
    "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

    #5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
    "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

    #6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
    "Repent therefore and be converted"

    #7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

    #8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
    "but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

    #9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
    "Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

    #10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
    "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

    #11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
    "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

    #12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.
     
  6. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    So your belief is, because it says in Revelation, the Lake of fire was created for the Devil and his angels. "Man was never meant to go to the LOF?"

    But even without it being said in the Bible, it is understood that God knew beforehand that man would be cast into the Lake of Fire?
     
  7. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    It is impossible for Humans to reconcile the two facts that God knows, planned,
    and controls every input and outcome, and we also have any inkling of free will.
     
  8. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    You lose credibility if you fail to show that God plans and knows everything.

    What Does the Bible Say About God Is In Control?
    What Does the Bible Say About Knowing The Future?
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Some years ago I was looking up the context of a a proof text that some folks use to support certain views. By accident I happened to see this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just a chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
    .....This passage very much speaks to the issue of God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

    Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
    2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
    3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
    4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
    5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
    6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
    7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
    8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
    10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
    11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man,
    so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
    · · ·
    14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
    Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
    .
     
  10. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    His way is the best way. I will attempt to answer the verses in the first link.

    Romans 8:28 ESV / 1,479 helpful votes
    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
    God can change even our mistakes and use them to being about His purpose. Does He make us make the mistake?
    When Achan sinned and kept of the loot from Jericho, God did not help them in defeating Ai, they were routed.
    Then after Achan was taken care of God told them to attack just as before, and flee just as before, but this time men were to lie in ambush.
    Did God make Achan sin? Did God make Joshua not seek His leading before attacking Ai? I say no to both questions. But God did use there mistake to bring victory.

    Proverbs 19:21 ESV / 1,399 helpful votes
    Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.
    Like I said, God's way is best. Jesus said if we build our castle upon the sand, it will fall, but if we build upon the Rock, it will stand. It is still our choice.
    Isaiah 41:10 ESV / 1,029 helpful votes
    Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
    This is an awesome verse, I take comfort in it when I have screwed up and made a mess of things.
    He strengthens me and gives me wisdom to get out of the mess I made.
    Jeremiah 29:11 ESV / 900 helpful votes
    For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
    God's plans give me hope, my plans lead to despair. We should depend on Him and seek Him with our whole heart. These plans He has for us don't just come about, we must seek Him and pray.
    Joshua 1:9 ESV / 811 helpful votes
    Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.”
    Yes, He promised He would never leave us nor forsake us. Hebrews 13:5
    Matthew 6:34 ESV / 781 helpful votes
    “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
    If we worry about tomorrow will we have peace. No. We should rely on Him He knows all about tomorrow.
    But if we worry about it we may make bad decisions. Think about Abraham having Ishmael.
    He did that because he was unwilling to wait for God's timing and he messed things up.
    Proverbs 16:9 ESV / 766 helpful votes
    The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
    Same answer as Proverbs 19:21 above.
    Ephesians 1:11 ESV / 668 helpful votes
    In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
    Don't forget the following verse as to what that will is.
    1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    All because of what Jesus did on the cross we can praise Him.
    This does not include every event in our lives. We were born again so we could be transformed into the Image of Christ.
    Isaiah 45:6-7 ESV / 650 helpful votes
    That people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.
    Like I said, His ways are better than ours.
    And if we don't obey He punishes. As evidenced in the OT, God killed many people as punishment for disobedience.
    And then He expended all of His wrath on Jesus Christ so He wouldn't have to punish us for sinning.

    Matthew 19:26 ESV / 643 helpful votes
    But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
    It is impossible for man to save himself, only God can do that.
    1 Corinthians 10:13 ESV / 626 helpful votes
    No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
    Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
    If we depend on Him, we can avoid the sin. The problem is, we don't depend on Him and we sin.
    Proverbs 16:4 ESV / 616 helpful votes
    The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
    Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
    (4) The Lord hath made all things for himself--i.e., to serve His own purposes, that His wisdom, goodness, &c, may be thereby revealed. Or the passage may be translated, "hath made all for its own end or purpose." The assertion that "He has made the wicked for the day of evil," does not mean that He created any one for punishment--i.e., predestined him for destruction. It only teaches that even the wicked are subservient to God's eternal purposes; that Pharaoh, for instance, by his rebellion could not change God's plans for the deliverance of His people, but only gave Him an occasion for showing forth His power, justice, goodness, and longsuffering. The "day of evil," i.e., punishment, at last overtook Pharaoh in accordance with the law and purpose of God that the wicked, if unrepentant, shall be punished, and thereby serve as a warning to others; but God by his longsuffering shewed that He was "not willing" that he should "perish," but rather that he "should come to repentance" (2Peter 3:9). This appears to be also the teaching of St. Paul in Romans 9:17, sqq.
    I think this says it better than I would have.
    Isaiah 45:7 ESV / 588 helpful votes
    I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.
    Already answered.
    Psalm 115:3 ESV / 588 helpful votes
    Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.
    And what does He please.
    1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
    Psalm 27:1 ESV / 571 helpful votes
    Of David. The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
    If God is for us, who can be against us.
    We have the absolute biggest brother anybody could have. And He protects us just like any big brother would his younger sibling.
    Or you could say we have the strongest Dad in all the world. And He looks out for us as any father would.

    Isaiah 55:8-11 ESV / 566 helpful votes
    For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
    Of course when you have really good seed, it is going to do what it is supposed to do.
    If you use lesser quality seed, it may not do what it is supposed to do.
    Psalm 22:28 ESV / 519 helpful votes
    For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.
    Kingship and kings, not every individual.
    2 Timothy 1:7 ESV / 512 helpful votes
    For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.
    It would be good if more believers realized this, they would lead much more fruitful lives.
    Isaiah 14:24 ESV / 467 helpful votes
    The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand,
    When the Babylonians went to far with what God would have them do during the captivity, He said He would punish them.
    Read the verse in context.
    Job 12:10 ESV / 459 helpful votes
    In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.
    Job was speaking this verse. Not God.
    Job and his 3 friends said many erroneous things that were recorded.
    Psalm 94:19 ESV / 421 helpful votes
    When the cares of my heart are many, your consolations cheer my soul.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Philippians 4:6-7 ESV / 420 helpful votes
    Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
    Looks to me if we make the right choice God will give us peace.
    John 14:27 ESV / 401 helpful votes
    Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.
    See response to the previous 2 verses.

    Psalm 23:1-6 ESV / 392 helpful votes
    A Psalm of David. The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. ...
    His ways are much better than ours.When we don't follow them we find trouble.
    Matthew 10:29 ESV / 391 helpful votes
    Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
    God knows about the sparrows, He doesn't make them fall.
    1 John 4:18 ESV / 377 helpful votes
    There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Revelation 1:17 ESV / 364 helpful votes
    When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Psalm 34:7 ESV / 364 helpful votes
    The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and delivers them.
    And if we don't fear Him, He doesn't camp around us or deliver us.
    1 Peter 5:7 ESV / 363 helpful votes
    Casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Daniel 4:35 ESV / 337 helpful votes
    All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”
    Nebuchadnezzar said this right after his sanity returned to him.
    After being punished for 7 years I could see how he would be grateful.
    Do we accept everything a new Christian would say?
    No, they need to be discipled.
    Proverbs 21:1 ESV / 337 helpful votes
    The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will.
    See response to Psalm 22"28 above.
    Psalm 46:1 ESV / 335 helpful votes
    To the choirmaster. Of the Sons of Korah. According to Alamoth. A Song. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Psalm 56:3 ESV / 330 helpful votes
    When I am afraid, I put my trust in you.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    1 Chronicles 29:11-12 ESV / 324 helpful votes
    Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are exalted as head above all. Both riches and honor come from you, and you rule over all. In your hand are power and might, and in your hand it is to make great and to give strength to all.
    And He gives strength to those who trust Him.
    Hebrews 1:3 ESV / 313 helpful votes
    He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
    If He didn't hold everything together, it would all fall apart.
    Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    1 Timothy 6:15 ESV / 313 helpful votes
    Which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Luke 12:22-26 ESV / 313 helpful votes
    And he said to his disciples, “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest?
    See response to Philippians 4:6-7
    Philippians 4:13 ESV / 298 helpful votes
    I can do all things through him who strengthens me.
    We should depend on Him for our strength, not ourselves.
    Psalm 135:6 ESV / 287 helpful votes
    Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.
    See response to Psalm 115:3.
    Jeremiah 32:27 ESV / 280 helpful votes
    “Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Psalm 23:4 ESV / 269 helpful votes
    Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
    See response to Psalm 23 above.
    Mark 5:36 ESV / 268 helpful votes
    But overhearing what they said, Jesus said to the ruler of the synagogue, “Do not fear, only believe.”
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    1 Peter 5:6-7 ESV / 264 helpful votes
    Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Mark 6:50 ESV / 260 helpful votes
    For they all saw him and were terrified. But immediately he spoke to them and said, “Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid.”
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.

    Philippians 4:19 ESV / 259 helpful votes
    And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.
    He says this so we won't worry.
    He puts thoughts into the minds of men, if they don't obey, He will put it into someone else's mind.
    As He would have done in Esther's case.
    Mordecai told her that she may have been raised up for such a time as this. But, if she disobeyed they would get deliverance from some other quarter.
    Psalm 103:19 ESV / 254 helpful votes
    The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.
    God has a plan for this Earth, nothing we do can stop it.

    Genesis 50:20 ESV / 254 helpful votes
    As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
    God orchestrated that whole thing using Joseph's brothers choices.
    He gave Joseph a dream that made his brothers envious setting the whole process into motion.
    He never made anybody do anything, all of them responded the way He knew they would.
    Zephaniah 3:17 ESV / 251 helpful votes
    The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.
    This is one of my favorite verses.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.

    1 Peter 3:14 ESV / 248 helpful votes
    But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Amos 3:6 ESV / 247 helpful votes
    Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?
    He wanted the Jews to know for certain this punishment was coming from Him, it would not be a coincidence.

    Isaiah 43:1 ESV / 247 helpful votes
    But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.

    Isaiah 43:9 ESV / 245 helpful votes
    All the nations gather together, and the peoples assemble. Who among them can declare this, and show us the former things? Let them bring their witnesses to prove them right, and let them hear and say, It is true.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Psalm 118:6-7 ESV / 245 helpful votes
    The Lord is on my side; I will not fear. What can man do to me? The Lord is on my side as my helper; I shall look in triumph on those who hate me.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Jonah 1:4 ESV / 243 helpful votes
    But the Lord hurled a great wind upon the sea, and there was a mighty tempest on the sea, so that the ship threatened to break up.
    Why did God use a storm? Maybe because Jonah was exercising his freewill.
    Then the men in the ship, after they knew it was Jonah's fault still tried to resist God's will, and the storm grew worse.
    Finally those men relented and threw Jonah into the sea. Then the sea became calm and then the men feared the LORD. He can even use our sins to manifest His glory.
    Psalm 55:22 ESV / 243 helpful votes
    Cast your burden on the Lord, and he will sustain you; he will never permit the righteous to be moved.
    Those who trust Him are like building on a Rock.
    Psalm 34:4 ESV / 243 helpful votes
    I sought the Lord, and he answered me and delivered me from all my fears.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Isaiah 41:2 ESV / 239 helpful votes
    Who stirred up one from the east whom victory meets at every step? He gives up nations before him, so that he tramples kings underfoot; he makes them like dust with his sword, like driven stubble with his bow.
    See response to Psalm 22:28
    Zechariah 4:6 ESV / 236 helpful votes
    Then he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord of hosts.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.

    Romans 9:21 ESV / 233 helpful votes
    Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
    This verse is referring to what God did with the nation of Israel.
    John 19:11 ESV / 233 helpful votes
    Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”
    That would be Judas having the greater sin.
    John 14:5 ESV / 233 helpful votes
    Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?”
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    2 Timothy 1:6 ESV / 232 helpful votes
    For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands,
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Genesis 8:22 ESV / 231 helpful votes
    While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.”
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control of men's lives.
    John 3:16-17 ESV / 224 helpful votes
    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    2 Chronicles 20:6 ESV / 221 helpful votes
    And said, “O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you.
    See response to Psalm 22:28
    John 16:33 ESV / 220 helpful votes
    I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Romans 13:1 ESV / 219 helpful votes
    Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
    See response to Psalm 22:28
    Proverbs 16:33 ESV / 219 helpful votes
    The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
    Septuagint, "For the unrighteous all things fall into their bosom, but from the Lord are all just things," which may mean either that, though the wicked seem to prosper, God still works out his righteous ends; or the evil suffer retribution, and thus God's justice is displayed.
    See response to Jonah 1:4, Romans 8:28
    Ephesians 1:11-12 ESV / 215 helpful votes
    In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
    Already answered.
    Genesis 1:1 ESV / 211 helpful votes
    In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Matthew 6:12 ESV / 210 helpful votes
    And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Psalm 91:4 ESV / 206 helpful votes
    He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler.
    We have a choice whether or not to put on the Armor of God.
    Hebrews 11:1-40 ESV / 203 helpful votes
    Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. ...
    By faith people acted.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Revelation 1:1 ESV / 196 helpful votes
    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
    Yes God has a plan for the end times and nothing we can do will stop it.
    Romans 8:29-30 ESV / 194 helpful votes
    For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
    This is a highly contested and misunderstood verse.
    Psalm 24:1 ESV / 194 helpful votes
    A Psalm of David. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein,
    A great verse saying all of us are His. People should consider this verse when they attempt to preach Limited Atonement.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    2 Peter 3:2 ESV / 184 helpful votes
    That you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
    God knows the future so He can accurately prophesy it.
    Acts 17:26 ESV / 176 helpful votes
    And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,
    Don't forget the next verse.
    17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
    James 1:13 ESV / 175 helpful votes
    Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Psalm 9:10 ESV / 175 helpful votes
    And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Revelation 1:1-20 ESV / 168 helpful votes
    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near. John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood ...
    See response to Revelation 1:1.
    Isaiah 14:27 ESV / 166 helpful votes
    For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?
    Already answered.
    Ephesians 1:4 ESV / 161 helpful votes
    Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
    What I put in bold is what He chose the church for. Not specific individuals.
    Job 42:2 ESV / 161 helpful votes
    “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
    This is Job speaking, not God.
    John 13:7 ESV / 156 helpful votes
    Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand.”
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Psalm 66:7 ESV / 141 helpful votes
    Who rules by his might forever, whose eyes keep watch on the nations— let not the rebellious exalt themselves. Selah
    Looks to me as if He is telling the rebellious not to get haughty.
    Psalm 46:10 ESV / 141 helpful votes
    “Be still, and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth!”
    If we do the first part of the verse, the 2nd part of the verse will be the result.
    Romans 3:23 ESV / 140 helpful votes
    For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    Was it God's will that everybody sin?
    I am confused why this verse is here.
    Psalm 27:14 ESV / 138 helpful votes
    Wait for the Lord; be strong, and let your heart take courage; wait for the Lord!
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    1 Corinthians 13:12 ESV / 137 helpful votes
    For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Hebrews 2:8 ESV / 127 helpful votes
    Putting everything in subjection under his feet.” Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.
    So He does not control everything at present?
    John 6:37 ESV / 123 helpful votes
    All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
    And He gives to the Son, those who put there trust in Him.
    1 Chronicles 29:11 ESV / 120 helpful votes
    Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are exalted as head above all.
    God is above all. He still doesn't make choices for us.
    Genesis 1:2 ESV / 120 helpful votes
    The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Revelation 1:8 ESV / 100 helpful votes
    “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Exodus 9:16 ESV / 98 helpful votes
    But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
    God knew what He was going to do, He knew what his response would be.
    Psalm 90:2 ESV / 91 helpful votes
    Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Isaiah 8:1-22 ESV / 76 helpful votes
    Then the Lord said to me, “Take a large tablet and write on it in common characters, ‘Belonging to Maher-shalal-hash-baz.’ And I will get reliable witnesses, Uriah the priest and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah, to attest for me.” And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz; for before the boy knows how to cry ‘My father’ or ‘My mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria.” The Lord spoke to me again: ...
    God knows the future so He can accurately prophesy.
    Hebrews 11:3 ESV / 68 helpful votes
    By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.
    Hebrews 10:5 ESV / 68 helpful votes
    Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me;
    I fail to see how this verse says God is in control.

    When I say "I fail to see how this verse says God is in control." that should have been total control.
    I was going to change it, but there were 36 of them, so I decided to make a note instead.
     
  11. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Those who recognise God are the ones who can see that God works all reality for our benefit.
     
  12. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Man thinks he is in control, but God works all things for His plans.
     
  13. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    As noted in the previous passages, God's plan will be carried out, and that knowledge will help you through it.
     
  14. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    God provides rain for all crops and disasters for all homes alike.
    His will was decided before He created the world.

    God has full control....no further need to belabor the point.
     
  15. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    I am not denying that GOD is Sovereign or that He is in control of things. I am also not in denial that GOD knows the future, either. However, there is also a sovereignty for man, as well. If not, then you would have to conclude that all sin and evil is the result of GOD and that is not possible because GOD is good and holy.
     
  16. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    DUPLICATE
     
  17. Radagast

    Radagast has left CF

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    There are different kinds of non-libertarian free will.

    Consider this: you are in a locked room (so you can't leave), but you don't know that it's locked.

    There is a really interesting book on the table; you pick it up and start reading. It's so good that you don't stop, so you don't try to leave the room.

    Do you have free will about staying in the room?
     
  18. Radagast

    Radagast has left CF

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    I'm not sure that makes sense.
     
  19. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Total control = God makes every choice. Who will be saved, who will not be saved.
    Control = God has a plan that will not be stopped no matter what we do.
    The Jews would have the land of Israel.
    There would be men who would write the Scriptures under His guidance.
    Jesus would be born at a certain time and die at a certain time.
    Jesus would die in a certain way at a certain time.
    Holy Spirit would be given at Pentecost.
    Jesus will come back for His church at some future time.

    Nothing man can do will change any of this.
     
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