Liberals, why do you believe people are entitled to the work of others?

[Crowns&Laurels]

I'm almost shocked by some some of the arguments in this thread.

This is a Christian site, right?
You wouldn't know it looking at this, straight from the OP on.

 

[ChristJudgeOfAll]

LOL.

I went to college. I got a relevant degree. I still can't get a job in my field (I've mentioned why many times, didn't I mention it here? I cant' remember. Basically no one wants to hire for entry level so I can never get my foot in the door).

I'm about to go to college AGAIN. FAFSA does NOT cover everything! FAFSA is covering less than half of my cost. I can't take out loans because there is no guarantee I'll be able to get a job and be able to pay them back (if I have to go back to a minimum wage job I won't be able to pay them back, because under minimum wage I can't even afford to pay for my insurance, medication, gas, etc).

I can't become a doctor for various reasons, just like I also can't become an astronaut or run for president.

FAFSA does, I don't know the policies behind it, but I took everything on loans. Borrowed 70,000 a year for law school. Ended up with over 210,000 in debt from law school and 50,000 in debt from college. Interest is pretty high though, I'm hitting 30,000 a year in interest rates almost.

Here's the thing, I strongly believe everyone has the intelligence level to do well, in fact, I believe if most people applied themselves they can probably get into a really good college. If people studied like they treat their job, putting in 8 hours a day, it's not hard to become one of the best (unless everyone does it, like they do in Asia), it's not hard to blow away your competition. Most students, even my son, who can't seem to put in more than 3 hours a day in studying is just too lazy with their education.

Also pick your major wiser if you want a higher wage. The price that people pay for pursing a major because they "like it" often is why people can't find jobs. The greatest impractical lie they teach in college is that pursing a major you like will all work out. They really need to teach which majors are practical in society, people have to sacrifice the things they like to make a good living sometimes. I don't like practicing the law obviously, which is why I'd rather be busing tables, but it pays way better so I'll suck it up.

Being a janitor can't be as bad as getting a major in computer science right?

 

[ChristJudgeOfAll]

I'm almost shocked by some some of the arguments in this thread.

This is a Christian site, right?
You wouldn't know it looking at this, straight from the OP on.

What does charity have anything to do with taxation for the purpose of welfare? I'd all be in favor of the church preaching that people should give to the poor. Apples and oranges. Everything is in the motive. Jesus cares about giving to the needy. Taxation isn't giving, it's forced. It loses all it's merits. Jesus wanted people to be kind, and taxes are just taxes, nothing to do with individual kindness.

The rich don't get into heaven because the government taxed their wealth away. The heart of being a Christian is about free will. There is no free will in forcing people to give to the poor.

If God wanted humans to give to the poor even against our will, he'd never have given us free will and just made us perfectly kind humans.

Should we give to the poor? Yes. Should we force those who don't want to give to give? No.

 

[KitKatMatt]

Uuuh, but I did excellent in college, and I still can't get a job because they want five year's experience. I can't get experience until I get the job.

I'm stuck doing minimum wage because there are literally no openings I can get (and I've tried anyways, but I am 100% positive my resume went directly into the trash because I ignored the giant letters saying "FIVE YEARS EXPERIENCE REQUIRED").

Two of my friends have multiple degrees (one has two and the other has three). All in great fields, and these people are SMART. But they are unable to get those jobs because of experience requirements, or because there are no openings at all. They both work minimum wage because they cannot land any other job.

I don't think you have a very realistic point of view on these things. It's sad.

 

[Jan Volkes]

I am quite familiar with the content of your posts in this forum, your modus operandi is to make broad, generalized, indeed stereotyped statements about Republicans and conservatives.

The post you made which inspired my satirical and cynical comment is nothing more than a generalized and stereotyped statement. One need read only your posts and thread titles and thread topics for the evidence of your generalized and stereotyped statements of Republicans and conservatives.

Now before you make the error accusing me of being partisan and defensive of Republicans and conservatives, any number of posters here will tell you I have criticized conservatives and Republicans in this forum.

My modus operandi is to make statements that if you think are wrong you simple crush them with the truth.
All you need do is point out the parts I have said that are wrong and crush them.
I don't expect you will because I am not wrong and you know it, hence the reason for your bluster.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

What does charity have anything to do with taxation for the purpose of welfare? I'd all be in favor of the church preaching that people should give to the poor. Apples and oranges. Everything is in the motive. Jesus cares about giving to the needy. Taxation isn't giving, it's forced. It loses all it's merits. Jesus wanted people to be kind, and taxes are just taxes, nothing to do with individual kindness.

Let's look at one of your previous statements:

Also who cares how hard someone works? It's about working smart, not working hard.

You basically just established that you believe millions of lower class men who work hard for the little they have are stupid.

I don't need to prove anything I've said on this thread thus far, you all funny enough do it for me. If you want to know what I think, God has put the upper class under judgement, and has included the middle class under that probation as well because alongside they are judging the poor for being poor and defending the wealthy for being wealthy.
Pick up a Bible and tell me where you think that's feasible under any circumstance, period. Americans have turned their Americanism into God Himself, and it's gone from annoying to dangerous.

 

[ChristJudgeOfAll]

Uuuh, but I did excellent in college, and I still can't get a job because they want five year's experience. I can't get experience until I get the job.

I'm stuck doing minimum wage because there are literally no openings I can get (and I've tried anyways, but I am 100% positive my resume went directly into the trash because I ignored the giant letters saying "FIVE YEARS EXPERIENCE REQUIRED").

Two of my friends have multiple degrees (one has two and the other has three). All in great fields, and these people are SMART. But they are unable to get those jobs because of experience requirements, or because there are no openings at all. They both work minimum wage because they cannot land any other job.

I don't think you have a very realistic point of view on these things. It's sad.

I doubt that if they went to a top ranked college, pulled in around the top 10% of their graduating class, and had a major that is highly desirable they wouldn't be able to find work.

I mean unless unemployment is extremely high, being at the top of your class, at a excellent college, I'd see no reason for unemployment unless your personality is just really bad.

It's not about smart it's about being practical to the market. Are your friends 4.0 students graduating from a top 20 university with a degree in the hard sciences?

 

[Jan Volkes]

I'm almost shocked by some some of the arguments in this thread.

This is a Christian site, right?
You wouldn't know it looking at this, straight from the OP on.

Yes it's a Christian forum but this section is open to everyone not just Christians and a lot of Democrats are not Christians.
Plus the fact that:
In the US at the turn of the last century (1900), there was a ratio of 27 churches per 10,000 people, as compared to the close of this century (2000) where we have 11 churches per 10,000 people in America.
Every year 4000 churches close in the US and only 1000 are built, net loss 3000 churches every year.

http://www.churchleadership.org/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=42346&columnid=4545

 

[ChristJudgeOfAll]

Let's look at one of your previous statements:


You basically just established that you believe millions of lower class men who work hard for the little they have are stupid.

I don't need to prove anything I've said on this thread thus far, you all funny enough do it for me. If you want to know what I think, God has put the upper class under judgement, and has included the middle class under that probation as well because alongside they are judging the poor for being poor and defending the wealthy for being wealthy.
Pick up a Bible and tell me where you think that's feasible under any circumstance, period.

Some are stupid, some are due to poor circumstance, and some are plain unlucky. And as individuals you should donate to anyone who is poor, regardless of why they are poor. However, a government entity should not because not everyone within that government is willing to give of their free will.

Are you talking to me as Christian right now? Because as a Christian, I believe God could have made this world perfect, he could have made this world without suffering, and without pain. He could have made all humans perfectly kind.

He didn't. We have free will. Free will is so important that he is willing to let us suffer the consequences of our free will.

In what way, is having the government forcibly making people who don't want to donate, donate a good thing? How is that different than if God made us without free will so we would all give to the needy. It isn't. We have free will for a reason, so we can individually choose to give or not to give.

As a Christian I'd always advocate giving, but also as a Christian, I'd never advocate forced giving.

 

[KitKatMatt]

I doubt that if they went to a top ranked college, pulled in around the top 10% of their graduating class, and had a major that is highly desirable they wouldn't be able to find work.

I mean unless unemployment is extremely high, being at the top of your class, at a excellent college, I'd see no reason for unemployment unless your personality is just really bad.

It's not about smart it's about being practical to the market. Are your friends 4.0 students graduating from a top 20 university with a degree in the hard sciences?

So what are the people that can't go into a top ranked college, aren't in the top 10% of their graduating class, and don't have a highly desirable major supposed to do?

The only way a college can be "top ranked" is if there are ones below it, which will fill up with people who can't go to the top one. Are they not deserving of anything because they didn't go to the "top ranked" college?

Not everyone can be in the top 10% of the graduating class, because by definition there will have to be 90% of students who are not in it. Do those kids in the 90% not deserve anything because they're not in the top 10%?

Stop acting like people deserve to not have enough money or support or essential services just because they aren't the best at everything. What a load of bull.

 

[lasthero]

Are you talking to me as Christian right now? Because as a Christian, I believe God could have made this world perfect, he could have made this world without suffering, and without pain.

Isn't that what he originally did? The world WAS perfect and without suffering and pain, before sin entered the equation, correct?

 

[ChristJudgeOfAll]

Isn't that what he originally did? The world WAS perfect and without suffering and pain, before sin entered the equation, correct?

We had free will, that is the only way Adam and Eve could be corrupted, they had choice. They choose to eat the fruit. The world was perfect, but God gave us a choice to make it imperfect.

God could have made it so we'd never eat from the tree. God chose to give us the choice to eat from the tree, he chose to put the tree there.

I'd never advocate that someone shouldn't give money to the poor. But I'd never advocate forcing someone to give money when they don't want to.

By using tax money for welfare, since many people who are taxed disagree with using that money for welfare, I cannot support such a system.

It is no different than if Jesus forcibly took the money from the rich and gave it to the poor. He could have done it, he did not. So why would it be Christian for the government to tax people with the threat of jail if they don't pay their taxes and use that for the poor?

 

[Jan Volkes]

Some are stupid, some are due to poor circumstance, and some are plain unlucky. And as individuals you should donate to anyone who is poor, regardless of why they are poor. However, a government entity should not because not everyone within that government is willing to give of their free will.

Are you talking to me as Christian right now? Because as a Christian, I believe God could have made this world perfect, he could have made this world without suffering, and without pain. He could have made all humans perfectly kind.

He didn't. We have free will. Free will is so important that he is willing to let us suffer the consequences of our free will.

In what way, is having the government forcibly making people who don't want to donate, donate a good thing? How is that different than if God made us without free will so we would all give to the needy. It isn't. We have free will for a reason, so we can individually choose to give or not to give.

As a Christian I'd always advocate giving, but also as a Christian, I'd never advocate forced giving.

Are you saying that because of free will some Christians are not really acting as Christians should and it's their free will that is making them act as if they are not Christians?
How do you account for the atheist charities who give for no reason other than they feel that they should and not to gain favour with some imaginary higher being?

 

[ChristJudgeOfAll]

Are you saying that because of free will some Christians are not really acting as Christians should and it's their free will that is making them act as if they are not Christians?
How do you account for the atheist charities who give for no reason other than they feel that they should and not to gain favour with some imaginary higher being?

Yeah free will allows people to act however they want to act. If Christians always acted and can only act Christianly, we'd be robots.

I don't know ask the atheists, when did I say people only did charitable things because they believe in God? I never said atheists are incapable of charity. You can give because you think it's the right to do.

The person I was quoting started the conversation with me that it is Christian to support a progressive tax, I argued that it's not Christian to support a progressive tax, because such a system is unChristian. It has nothing to do with atheism, I don't even know where your comment comes from.

 

[ChristJudgeOfAll]

So what are the people that can't go into a top ranked college, aren't in the top 10% of their graduating class, and don't have a highly desirable major supposed to do?

The only way a college can be "top ranked" is if there are ones below it, which will fill up with people who can't go to the top one. Are they not deserving of anything because they didn't go to the "top ranked" college?

Not everyone can be in the top 10% of the graduating class, because by definition there will have to be 90% of students who are not in it. Do those kids in the 90% not deserve anything because they're not in the top 10%?

Stop acting like people deserve to not have enough money or support or essential services just because they aren't the best at everything. What a load of bull.

It's not hard to get best in society where everyone isn't trying their hardest. China is a place where it's hard to excel at, they are trying so hard at studying that they are killing themselves when they don't get into their ideal university.

America isn't nowhere near that level of competition. When students start studying 12 hour days, then you can complain that it's impossible to get into the top 10%. It's not hard to get into the top 10% when most college students study under 2 hours a day.

 

[Jan Volkes]

We had free will, that is the only way Adam and Eve could be corrupted, they had choice. They choose to eat the fruit. The world was perfect, but God gave us a choice to make it imperfect.

That is completely back to front, when Eve ate the fruit she did not have free will, she only got free will once she ate the fruit,
before that she didn't know what free will was because she was innocent.
That's why A&E is only a story, also this is the American Politics section.

 

[ChristJudgeOfAll]

That is completely back to front, when Eve ate the fruit she did not have free will, she only got free will once she ate the fruit,
before that she didn't know what free will was because she was innocent.
That's why A&E is only a story.

Knowledge of free will isn't the same as free will. Eve didn't know what free will was, but she had it before. If she didn't she could never eat the fruit. Free will doesn't require you to know you have free will. Eve was innocent, having free will doesn't make corrupt you, it only makes corruption possible.

Free will is about having choice.
To obey God and not eat from the tree or to listen to the snake and eat from the tree was a choice that Eve made with free will.

 

[Jan Volkes]

Knowledge of free will isn't the same as free will. Eve didn't know what free will was, but she had it before. If she didn't she could never eat the fruit. Free will doesn't require you to know you have free will. Eve was innocent, having free will doesn't make corrupt you, it only makes corruption possible.

Free will is about having choice.
To obey God and not eat from the tree or to listen to the snake and eat from the tree was a choice that Eve made with free will.

What ever you say, it's all childish to me.
Can we now please leave religion and get back to politics?

 

[NotreDame]

My modus operandi is to make statements that if you think are wrong you simple crush them with the truth.
All you need do is point out the parts I have said that are wrong and crush them.
I don't expect you will because I am not wrong and you know it, hence the reason for your bluster.

Right, your stereotyped statements need to be shown to be wrong. No, the burden of proof is with you, your claims, your statements, hence your job to show your stereotyped remakes are truthful. The "bluster" are your stereotyped statements, along with the now fallacy of burden shifting to me. It's your burden to show your statements, those grandiose stereotyped statements, are correct.

 

[NotreDame]

I agree that in a society where all of the income gains in the last 30 years have gone to the 1%, we need to do something to prevent the "successful" from skimming all the profits from corporations and leaving everyone else with the crumbs.

I'm so glad you brought this up.

While we're at it, why do corporations lay off employees and cut expenses to the bone to enrich shareholders who have a little bit of money and no skin in the game?

Disclaimer: My husband is retired and I am still working, although I could retire. We enjoy making profits from investments as much as anyone else, but I try to avoid investing in companies that use Romney-esque tactics to enrich shareholders at the employees' expense.

Disclaimer: My husband is retired and I am still working, although I could retire. We enjoy making profits from investments as much as anyone else, but I try to avoid investing in companies that use Romney-esque tactics to enrich shareholders at the employees' expense

Can you be more specific as to what exactly you are referring with the phrase "Romney-esque tactics"?

I, too, wonder why a CEO earns 450 times more than the average employee, even though those employees work as many hours (or more) and don't have expense accounts, stock options, etc.

Well, what equation, rule, formula, or principle would you invoke to A.) Establish a limit or ceiling for the disparity between CEO pay and the "average employee" and B.) What is the justification for the equation, rule, formula, or principle?

I ask because I have conversed with many people who are repulsed by the idea some CEO has an income "450 times more than the average employee" but when asked for some rational principle to guide us in determining and assessing when the disparity between CEO and "average employee" has become impermissible, they struggle to conjure up any rational rule to guide us. In the end, ostensibly the repulsion is nothing more than an immediate visceral reaction, something unpalatable for the sake of being unpalatable and nothing more.

I have often wondered what is a fair and proper wage for an employee? What factors should be made when determining a fair wage? For example, does the labor of say the window worker at McDonalds demand a wage of $15.00/hr? How do we know when a wage is too low for the labor performed, or when the wage is proper or just about right for the labor performed?